Moderation of trans issue and terms

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497402#Comment_123497402

Worse than that, a poster has said on this very thread that :

If you don't agree with being called cisgender, it's the same as denying the existence of trans people.

(Post 24:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492766#Comment_123492766

And a moderator posted just below that post agreeing with it.

That's saying that as a woman I'm not even entitled to expect people to use my preferred language about myself, because it's offensive to them. I must not only use their preferred language about them, but must accept them using their preferred language about me as well.

Where are my rights in that?

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497436#Comment_123497436

Read the thread.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497505#Comment_123497505

Like I just responded to a previous poster, read the thread.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497436#Comment_123497436

Ezeoul posted a link on the original thread that they said would be a good basis on which to decide what was acceptable and what was transphobic. From here:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123483402#Comment_123483402

Ezeoul then posted some examples from the link, including one that defines misgendering as:

See the problem?

Using they/them is transphobic for non binary trans people, but not using they/them is transphobic for binary trans people. Can you always tell at a glance? Naturally, to complicate matters, Reddit is full of trans people expressing their unhappiness because someone asked them what their pronouns were, so it's no longer acceptable to just ask.

And of course it's only transphobic today. Who knows what the rule will be next week or next month.

Because the same link also says that:

This definition of transphobia was developed over a period of months by a diverse group of UK based trans people. As with any definition, it is a working definition that will change over time.

Which is a bit of a trip hazard for anyone who doesn't spend their days scouring Stonewall or other websites for the latest linguistic definitions.

If I were being cynical I would say that it looks like a power play, to keep their own members constantly destabilised because they never know for sure what's transphobic. Cults do exactly that - keep changing the rules to keep their members unsure and therefore docile.

_Kaiser_

I can't believe this argument is still going multiple pages later.

It's very, very simple!

Anyone has the right to believe themselves to be something other than they appear to be. It's their life, their choice, their decision.

What they CAN'T control (and have no right to expect) is whether other people choose to support their beliefs. Nor can they expect them to acknowledge these beliefs except from a sense of courtesy and tolerance.

Some people may choose to acknowledge this, some may not. That's their right too and influenced by their own views and how much weight they place on the biological and historical facts involved.

That's the end of it - regardless of any number of advocacy websites, variable terminology, or what have you.

For myself, as someone who had a staff member come out as trans in a previous role, I was happy to support their choices as did the company - but it didn't change their biology or that they were previously known by that identity. I suppose the difference is they understood the realities involved in their decision more than some posters here and didn't lose the plot over perceived slights or demand universal acceptance either.

Boggles

It's the same handful of posters who seem absolutely obsessed with Trans people in CA.

None of them know any actual trans people so it must be their socials having a field day with them.

Trans people are being bashed now by the vocal minority because it is no longer acceptable to punch down on gay people, although that is changing now in America where most of this absolute horseshít is imported from.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497504#Comment_123497504

And I stand by it.

Sorry if by being described as someone whose gender matches their sex insults you.

What term would you use for a person whose gender matches their sex or to put it another way, what would you say is the opposite of a trans individual?

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497602#Comment_123497602

And if, multiple pages on, you are still insisting that this is about forcing others to believe anything, or demanding universal acceptance, you are still completely missing the point.

It's very, very simple!

It's about treating others with respect.

For Petes Sake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493660#Comment_123493660

The both sides’ing equates that one side just wants a bit more respect for trans people, while another side believes their existence is up for debate.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497602#Comment_123497602

From my own personal experience of having a family member being trans for decades, actual trans people are far more tolerant of other opinions than trans activists.

TBH, a lot of the pearl clutching from activists seems performative and designed to make the discussion about them as opposed to actual trans people.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497607#Comment_123497607

This is a very strange assumption to make. You can't possibly know that about anyone on here. In my case you are entirely wrong. I personally know, to varying degrees, more than half a dozen trans people, both male and female. Two are through work - although one is a young person who actually seems to alternate between being non binary and being trans, so I don't know whether that counts - and the others are in my personal life, children of friends etc. All are young, unhappy people, often for easily identifiable, non trans related, reasons.

It's true that I don't know any of the more traditional Eddie Izzard type trans.

nachouser

The same usual posters dragging down anything when it comes to the idea that trans people - of which their are a teeny tiny few in Ireland - might not be the actual end of the world as we know it.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497614#Comment_123497614

Why would you need to say anything other than what they are? A person, a man, a woman, a girl, a boy - as relevant in the context.

If you need to specifiy that they are not trans, then you can say that. Or non-trans. It's still a heck of a lot simpler than some of the suggestions you've made.

tarvis

This T rejection of reality and their ‘our way or the highway’ rejection of the views of non T’s is becoming pretty tedious.

I for one accept the fact of trans women and trans men. These titles require no language mangling tho’ may still need some explaining as they currently represent a tiny minority.

The terms terf and cis… the language of phobes?

Ha Long Bay

Why not just move the threads to the LGBT forum and out of CA altogether?

It already has a charter instead of having to invent a new one for CA.

https://www.boards.ie/categories/lesbian-gay-bisexual-transgender

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497685#Comment_123497685

I don't believe you.

Also

All are young, unhappy people

🙄

You are fooling no one.

The vast majority of your posts on here are trans panic nonsense and self fearing mongering.

But but but but but they will be jumping out of laundry baskets to rape women!!!

It's beyond creepy.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497626#Comment_123497626

What about one side just wanting a bit more respect for women who don't want to have biological males showering and changing alongside them in the allegedly women's sections? Or who don't want violent males being sent to prison with women (which was the discussion that led to this thread being opened).

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that all trans women are a threat to women - rather that by taking the word of any male who says they're a woman as a woman, we're actually enabling men who are not really trans to pretend to be so in order to get access to victims.

That's why self declaration, rather than trans per se, is a danger to women.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497747#Comment_123497747

This is silly. You're just confirming your own beliefs by accusing anyone who says differently of lying.

That's on you though.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497733#Comment_123497733

Apologies for repeating myself yet again, but I didn't come here to engage in debate on either your first or second questions, and again, a feedback thread is not the place for it.

As for your final point, I've already stated on this thread that I only ever use the term "cisgender" when making a direct reference to myself. I do not use it to refer to anyone else as I have taken on board that it may cause offence, and I would not wish to do so.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497756#Comment_123497756

I said I don't believe you, that's different.

I tend not to believe everything I read by anonymous posters on the internet. Don't think that makes me outlier.

Glad you acknowledge you are obsessed with Trans people though.

Good for you. 😏

EmmetSpiceland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497747#Comment_123497747

It’s always the same ‘all of the trans people I know just want to get on with their lives and don’t go for any of this WOKE(all caps) nonsense’.

Considering how they seem to know so many trans people, they either know all of the trans population in Ireland, at this stage, or they just know the same few. Both seem highly unlikely.

For Petes Sake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497749#Comment_123497749

The people going on about ‘respect for women’, never make any contribution to any other aspect of what it’s like to be a woman.

Many people banging that drum are the same who wouldn’t be afraid to talk about the possibility of a woman falsely accusing a man of rape. Some of the trans deniers on here, on the basis of ‘respecting women’, would also be Conor McGregor fans.

Many of the ‘respecting women’, crowd are the type that will say men will pretend to be trans so they can go into women’s toilets to attack them, when fact of the matter is a man doesn’t actually have to do that if that’s what their real goal is.

Many of the ‘respecting women’ crowd don’t believe in the existence of period poverty.

Many of the ‘respecting women’ crowd are anti-choice, and would force a woman to carry the baby of their rapist if they could get away with it.

I’m not pointing any of this at you in particular, but you’ll forgive me if I don’t pay any heed to someone who claims their belief that a trans person’s existence is up for debate is based on ‘respecting women’, when they are silent on many other issues that women face every day.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497772#Comment_123497772

LOL

So on the one hand one poster thinks I can't possibly know any trans people, and when I point out that I know several, you don't believe that either because it's statsitically impossible!

More circular logic there.

(I think you don't realise just how common it is for young people to be confused about their gender these days. As I said, I don't know a single one over the age of about 25. Youngest is 13. Two have had mastectomies - both over 18 TBF.)

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497788#Comment_123497788

See you're doing the same as Ezeoul above - projecting your beliefs onto other posters. Look at the last thread I started before the one that led to this discussion, and the abuse I got from male posters for that, and indeed my posts generally on women's issues. I've been called a man hater more times than I can count here, for my position on male violence against women. Nothing to do with trans at all. In fact if there are posters on trans threads who think I only post about that, that says far more about their lack of interest in women's issues than it does about me.

On your more general point, yes there are lots of right wing misogynists. We all know that. But I can promise youn from personal experience, there are lots of left wing ones too. The difference is they like to virtue signal about it as well, expecting women to adore them for being such feminisits - but only about those feminist issues that the men think worthy. Heaven forbid a woman should have her own opinion, different from the leftwing men whose lead she's meant to follow unquestioningly.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497772#Comment_123497772

They spend hours online, saddo white knighting for women's sports.

Same ones wouldn't turn their sideways if their was a women's soccer match on.

A lot of it just plain bigotry, Adam and Even type shíté, rest of it is just hateful lies and rhetoric.

It's beyond boring, thank God that absolute bollíx hasn't gained any traction in Ireland.

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497747#Comment_123497747

That's a lovely bit of manufactured outrage - not surprising when you feel qualified to tell the OP that she needs to get over stuff.

Any thoughts on the thread topic?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497812#Comment_123497812

"White knighting". The absolute irony of this!

Your whole mindset is that you're all discussing stuff between men, and have no idea that women exist as people at all. Never mind that they might dare have opinions that differ from yours as to what matters to women.

(It's not even the first time I've been accused of that on this site!)

ETA: I went back to look for that other instance when I was accused of white knighting for women, and surprise surprise, it was you! 😂

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122723508#Comment_122723508

Ten of Swords

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497721#Comment_123497721

Absolutely not - EVER

archfi

I think the 'Feedback' bit of the thread is now not feedback at all, it's a litany of attack attack attack from well, you can see who from reading the last page or so.

Hopefully it gets back on track as it was one of the best, polite attempts at discussing the language barrier this site has had. IMO.

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497839#Comment_123497839

Can I ask why though as that is what the forum is to be used for according to the charter?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2056425742/charter-read-before-posting-against-the-rules-not-to-read

1. This board relates to LGBTQ+ (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, Questioning) issues. General discussions about gender and sexual diversity are absolutely fine too.

2. The overall ethos of this forum is one of equality and inclusiveness. There is an expectation with that of mature, civil, constructive discussion.