Moderation of trans issue and terms

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496111#Comment_123496111

In a nutshell, to describe a trans woman as a "trans identifying male" (or vice-versa) is to misgender them and invalidate how they identify. Using such terms is never a "kindness".

And while you may feel this should not be a problem - for many transgender people it is a problem. There are many sources to confirm this.

Now, that leaves a choice. To either take onboard that many transgender people find such a term offensive and refrain from using it, or ignore them and carry on regardless.

But I would hope that once someone becomes aware that these terms do cause offence, that they would have the decency to refrain from using them.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496292#Comment_123496292

The fact that even you don’t fully understand whats offensive and what’s not shows why this policing of language is really about power over others, not about genuine offensiveness.

A few “leaders” keep everyone else on tenterhooks by constantly changing what’s offensive today. It’s very Animal Farm in fact.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496347#Comment_123496347

I have just stated the words read exactly the same in my phone, so what is the difference?

I know calling transwomen, male or men is offensive to them, so don't understand why anyone would.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496356#Comment_123496356

I’ve already explained several times why it may sometimes be necessary to do so. You’ve ignored that, every single time.

Yvonne007

So we have just given up on the whole premise that Gender and Sex are different?

I do remember that's what a lot of TRA's were saying.

But now seemingly, we can't even mention the fact that the biological sex is different and point out that someone who is identifies as "trans" is a different biology as they present. That's transphobic? Yet if you refer to someone as "cis" and they don't like it, you are also being transphobic.

Trans Identifying biological male. Now, that's separating sex and gender. Is that acceptable?

I think the TRA's have eaten themselves in their bid to outdo what offends them and people are bored by the constant moving of the goalposts.

Thank goodness it seems the majority of people are starting to come to their senses.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496369#Comment_123496369

No. You have stated why you think it might be necessary. Transwomen find it offensive and upsetting to be called male or men, so just don't do it. Anyone who has issues understanding what a transwomen is, just needs to look it up, it's in the dictionary

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496292#Comment_123496292

For information, the difference is thus:

The use of “trans women” ensures that trans is correctly used as an adjective in a similar way to the use of “gay women”. “Gaywomen” without a space could indicate that lesbians were not included in that person’s definition of who gets to call themselves a woman. “Transwomen” has the same impact. 

It is an easy error to make, and one I know I am guilty of having made as well. But as with everything else, once aware, hopefully the goal is not to repeat it.

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496356#Comment_123496356

Call them transwo then. Eliminate the "man" completely.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496331#Comment_123496331

Part of the problem is that there will be no end to it. Look at the linked discussion on reddit about why "biological sex" is offensive. The exact same "arguments" could justify banning that term as much as "biological male".

How would we argue that biological sex matters more than "subjective gender" (another eminently bannable term) if we can't use the phrase?

I find it astonishing that you don't think people see what you are doing here, or don't see it yourself …

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskLGBT/comments/v82xej/why_is_the_term_biological_sex_considered/

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496391#Comment_123496391

🙄🙄…

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496379#Comment_123496379

The irony of asking people to look up dictionary definitions while simultaneously arguing that transwomen should not be referred to as biological males has added some much-needed levity to this topic.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496379#Comment_123496379

Yes I can understand that, just as i find it a bit uncomfortable to be reminded that I am now a middle aged bald man and not the handsome lad I used to be - but that doesn't make it any less true. I mean it's not nice, but it shouldn't be a hate crime either.

Ezeoul

Also, I have to add that I do not believe there are any circumstances in which it is "necessary" to use language that misgenders a transgender person.

More appropriate terms that I have seen transgender people use themselves in discussion are "assigned male at birth" (AMAB) or "assigned female at birth" (AFAB).

Arghus

The trans related talk should have its own separate feedback thread IMO, let ye thrash it out there because there's no end to it.

aero2k

The other thread was closed just when a very interesting and surprisingly civil discussion was taking place. I've opened this so the discussion can be continued - it's an important one I feel, and judging by the number of posts in a short time on the "Very quiet" thread others share my view.

I'll begin with this: I'd like to consign the phrase "assigned male/female at birth" to the dustbin of history. It is of course necessary if you're starting from the fictional premise that sex is somehow a subjective idea, and perhaps subject to the whims of the medical people present at birth. If you believe, as I do, that there are two biological sexes, then the phrase is ridiculous.

Also: Misgendering. How is it possible to misgender someone if you are using sex based language? Aren't sex and gender two separate things?

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058412118/feedback-to-help-moderation-of-threads-discussing-trans-related-issues

I absolutely agree.

nullzero

Ultimately it is possible (for boards.ie) to ask people to respect other peoples identities without enforcing policies based on ideological rhetoric from activist groups.

Currently this site does not have a serious issue with the abuse of trans people, or any other groups in society for that matter.

Whilst some people will always have a greater level of sensitivity towards how certain phrases are used, unless a clear intent of causing distress to another user on this site is readily evident the idea that incredibly strict rules should be enforced as per the wants of organisations with extremely specific stated goals on what is a devise topic is a step towards a level of censorship that isn't conducive to open a reasonable debate.

Spear

Change in plans here, I'll separate out the trans posts from the Very Quiet thread, and you can continue in a thread created from them, give me a few minutes to select them all out.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058412118/feedback-to-help-moderation-of-threads-discussing-trans-related-issues

Also: Misgendering. How is it possible to misgender someone if you are using sex based language? Aren't sex and gender two separate things?

Do you mean referring to a trans individual by their sex of birth?

Spear

The 135 posts from the Very Quiet thread are now in a new thread here:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058412119/moderation-of-trans-issue-and-terms

Spear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496471#Comment_123496471

And it does now.

All 135 posts from the original Very Quiet thread are now in here. If there's any stray or wrongly moved ones, let me know.

nullzero

Delete.

Kurooi

What I find enlightening is that a man or a woman comfortable with who they are aren't afraid of or offended by being misgendered. It's not a concept at all, if anyone were to commit the error, shame on them they're the fool.

The only people offended and defensive about it are people who are uncomfortable in their own lie.

I enjoy meeting trans people who can own their identity, be confident and not require policing nor suppressing others.

Spear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496769#Comment_123496769

I've merged the two now.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496787#Comment_123496787

Brilliant.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496413#Comment_123496413

Now imagine a poor hairdresser having to explain to you why she can't give you a bleach and perm while having to pretend that she too sees the long lustrous locks that you fondly imagine yourself to have!

Because that's the (easier) equivalent of trying to explain why Barbie Kardashian or Isla Bryson should be in male prisons, while referring to them as male.

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496749#Comment_123496749

That is what sex- based language means.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496379#Comment_123496379

Problem is, people think they do know, so that doesn't work. People don't look up every single word on the off chance that it might have a new meaning they weren't aware of. And the vast majority of people, even those with a limited grasp of English, do know what a woman is, so some of them wrongly assuming that they know what a transwoman is, is exactly why the results of the 2021 census in the UK have had to be downgraded.

The fact that you think that spending millions on a census only for it to be deemed too unreliable to be considered to be "accredited official statistics" really doesn't argue well for your cause. These things do matter, even if you say they don't.

EmmetSpiceland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496826#Comment_123496826

Should the same hairdresser refuse to cut his hair if he returned from Turkey, after receiving a gender reaffirming hair transplant, as underneath it all they still view him as a bald man?

taxAHcruel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496331#Comment_123496331

Therein lies a/the problem though. Even if we implement your algorithm to choose our language ("take on board or ignore") then which group does one take on board?

While I have never entered into any Transgender discussions specifically - which is why I keep my points more universal and general - I have heard it said things like "Trans Women ARE women" and that therefore the only non offensive term for them is - women.

So your "Take it on board or ignore" algorithm appears unworkable because I can not "take on board" every single group out there simultaneously. At some point one has to cherry pick who to offend and who not to offend. Based on what? Personal preference? Which means I am back at square one anyway where I was before the algorithm was suggested.

So in general - as I said I try to keep this general rather than Trans specific - I tend towards language based on context and based on being understood. If I can minimize offense by choosing between options without significantly sacrificing being understood I will of course do so. But minimizing offense is the secondary concern and is often not possible anyway.

So my algorithm is: "Prioritize clarity and then optimize for minimal offense" which appears to be the exact mirror of the algorithm other people are suggesting to use.

To take another example. I have been told that "gay" and "camp" are good terms to use. That "gay" is a reclaimed word and is also a play on positivity because it also means "happy". I have had gay people in my direct experience charge into a party saying things like "Lets CAMP this place up a bit people!" or "You are so Camp sometimes I love it" and so on.

But then I have had other groups tell me "gay" was historically oppressive and should not be used and "camp" is either directly from, or at least reminiscent of "KMP" meaning "Known Male Prostitute" and was also an anti gay oppressive word never to be used therefore and is highly offensive.

So who in general am I to "take on board" when two different activist groups are telling me (and often each other) directly opposing things that are impossible to implement simultaneously?

My solution for me that I never push on anyone else but myself: Neither.