Moderation of trans issue and terms

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493108#Comment_123493108

There's nothing being said on boards about trans people that compares to that on any level and you know it.

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493108#Comment_123493108

That's not compelled speech, that's prohibited speech, an entirely different thing.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493122#Comment_123493122

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493128#Comment_123493128

This shows it's about education.

Labelling someone as a "trans-identifying male" is the same as misgendering them. And should be prohibited, just like the above.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493120#Comment_123493120

Or they could just learn the correct phrasing? 🤷

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493108#Comment_123493108

That's completely different - as @aero2k says, there's no good reason to use f…. rather than gay, whereas this whole male/female thing is (deliberately, I suppose) ambiguous and many people do not fully know what's what, or do know but get mixed up.

There are discussions and contexts where that matters. There's no equivalent clarification of meanings in your example.

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492094#Comment_123492094

That's a really good post - it has wider applications than the topic in hand. We have to be logical about it - freedom to hold and express our opinions requires everyone to have that freedom.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492812#Comment_123492812

I'd suggest that you need to take into account developments since those rules were made, such as the Cass report, and the evidence that WPATH has been giving terrible medical adivce (two Irish specialists have reported the HSE to HIQA over transgender care being led by activists rather than by research), not to mention the UK Supreme Court judgment that nobody changes sex and that in certain situations, pretending they do harms women's rights.

IOW your rules on that issue are not fit for purpose, because they prevent clear and unambiguous naming of the real issues, issues that are crucial for women's rights.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493146#Comment_123493146

More like re-education.

By your logic anyone who isn't trans who doesn't want to be referred to as cisgender is committing a hate crime.

Yet we should respect the wishes of how trans people want to identity but we can't identify ourselves as we like.

I'm all for respecting trans people's rights but respect is a two way street and what you're proposing is a type of fundamentalism that you're presenting as fact and using it as a stick to beat people with.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492766#Comment_123492766

Sorry but I have to call you out there on your assertations about 'cisgender' - I refuse to use that term and will actually call out people referring to me as that.

Why? Simple, I don't like the sound of it. Nor do I associate with it. To say that makes me 'transphobic' is ludicrous.

I will happily refer to people in any way they would like that makes them comfortable, will use any pronouns they want me to use and will go out of my way to make sure I remember to get it right in future.

Seems awfully hypocritical for me to be 'transphobic' for not wanting to be referred to as a term I don't like but at the same time being expected to (and trying my best to) refer to people as the term they like.

Arghus

After reading the last page or two I'll say that I don't envy any mod or admin who has to adjudicate on any trans discussion.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493122#Comment_123493122

With all due respect, you can only decide on what level of transphobia / transphobic language you deem acceptable, for yourself.

As I have stated repeatedly, I didn't come on to this thread to start or engage in a debate on anyone's personally held beliefs or opinions on transgender issues despite being repeatedly accused of that.

I came here to asked the mods / admin team to consider what I've seen going on in other threads, how it can be dealt with, (I suggested filtered words) and that is what they've now said they are going to do. It might come to something, it might come to nothing.

Either way, I am satisfied (for now) that they have at least agreed to look into it.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493238#Comment_123493238

Cisgender just means that you feel that your gender matches your sex. Nothing more to you than that. Using it implies that trans individuals exist. If you think denying that trans people exist is ok, that makes you transphobic.

Anyway, I have a feeling that all these replies will be deleted anyway.

EmmetSpiceland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493195#Comment_123493195

Maybe not the Cass Report, doesn’t seem to have stood up well to peer review, at all.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493309#Comment_123493309

Where in any of my post did I say I denied trans people exist? I've literally marched in trans pride marches with trans friends. Stop putting words in people's mouths.

Your logic boils down to:

'X = a fact. End of. If you don't agree, you are automatically transphobic.'

The only other people I know who are this lacking in nuance on complex topics and try to put everything into such black and white outcomes are in cults.

Dial Hard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493122#Comment_123493122

There was a thread on this very forum not too long ago in which an openly trans poster was referred to as "it", and the post stayed in place for days - despite multiple reports, which I know of because I reported it myself about three times - before eventually being removed. Obviously I can't link you to the post in question anymore because it was eventually dealt with, but it took far too long and should never have lasted past the first report to begin with. I can link you to my post in Feeback about it, though, just in case you think I'm making the whole thing up.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492870#Comment_123492870

No it wasn't. You claimed there was rampant defamatory posts on those threads. And you were asked to post some proof, which you couldn't. Because as explained to you, insults are not defamation.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493309#Comment_123493309

You're attaching far too much weight to the term, honestly. I personally don't have an issue with being labelled that way but I don't think that such labeling is inherently helpful due to how minuscule a proportion of the population trans people constitute.

I've seen a lot of transphobia on this site to be clear. It's very common because trans people are just a popular target for hate from the right. I do not remotely deny the existence of either trans people or what they're up against.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493348#Comment_123493348

But it was dealt with. Good.

Ezeoul

Can I also suggest the mods / Admin team consider the following source, when determining what is appropriate for Boards users.

Transphobia – TransActual

It addresses a lot of the common misconceptions that have come up on other threads, and I now see are coming up here.

Thanks again.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492766#Comment_123492766

Why?

I don't consider myself transphobic in any way but hate being referred to as a cis woman .

I would appreciate people not referring to me as such and I am entitled to that, as anyone is entitled not to be referred to as a trans identifying male or female if they find it offensive .

Point being ..

I would like to know the official acceptable terminology so I don't offend others. And ask that likewise nobody refers to me in a manner I find unacceptable just because they believe I should accept it .

With this and other rules in Boards clarity is key .

Edit. I see @o1s1n has just argued the same point with you and you are doubling down on it.

I don't want to get involved in any row over this. I am not transphobic and am a women but don't like being labelled cis.

If that puts me on the opposite side from you , I think that is a needlessly entrenched position that will just drive many from the debate.

As it is I don't get involved because the discussion appears toxic to anyone looking in .

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493490#Comment_123493490

Have a read of the link I just posted above.

It answers a lot of questions.

I personally only use the term cisgender when I am making direct reference to myself, not towards anyone else.

Dial Hard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493403#Comment_123493403

Yes, eventually. But your point seemed to be that such posts aren't being made to begin with, which demonstrably isn't the case.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493469#Comment_123493469

There's some good stuff there, for sure, but they're still off the mark on the 'Cisgender' thing IMO.

'Transphobia is: 'Denying trans people the right to their own language to talk about their situations.'…

“Cisgender” is neither an insult nor an identity, it is a word used to identify people who aren’t trans whilst avoiding the use of stigmatising language such as “normal”. Denying trans people access to non-stigmatising language to describe people who don’t share their identity acts to further stigmatise them.'

I get the need to have your own language to describe your situation. And I also get the implication of people using 'normal' in that then trans people are 'not normal'.

But you also need to factor in what others want to be described as. Just as trans people want to be referred to as their preferred pronouns, 'non-trans' people also wish the same thing. If someone doesn't want to be called 'Cisgender', coming at them with 'well you're a transphobe then' is very alienating, particularly those on the same side as you.

What's wrong with using 'non-trans' rather than 'cisgender' by the way?

'The 'cisgender' people we were talking to…'

'The 'non-trans' people we were talking to..'

Seems like a fairly straightforward solution, no?

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492766#Comment_123492766

Your second point is exactly what I mean about some people like I stated above.

In fairness to Ezeoul the poster has respected people's preference to not be called CIS.

Here you are trying to downplay the feelings of women by calling them transphobic for not wanting to be called cisgender.

It's great to see people I would class as left leaning call you out on that nonsense.

Let me guess you are neither trans nor a woman?

Arghus

I think, looking in from the outside, is that when it comes to this debate things can get super emotive quite quickly.

Even in the last few pages you can see how people - from both sides - start taking shots at each other immediately and there's no agreement on even first principles and - from what I've seen - a real unwillingness to give the other position, or poster, some benefit of the doubt or an attempt to try to understand their position - even if you disagree.

There's a real pronounced unwillingness in debate on the site to give ground, admit error, or to be charitable in debate which, for me, lies at the heart of why so many threads about "hot" topics just turn into farce after a period.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493584#Comment_123493584

I didn't decide the terms!

I do know that "cis" and "trans" are rooted in Latin with "cis" = "one side of" and "trans" = "across from".

As I mentioned, I only use the term cis or cisgender when making a direct reference to myself as I am conscious that it may cause offence to others.

Thanks for reading the link.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493316#Comment_123493316

Absolute nonsense. It wouldn’t be peer reviewed anyway because it was a government-led report of best practice, not research. So nobody was asked to peer review it and anyone who did was most likely an activist determined to cherry pick and try to discredit it.

Nonetheless, the Labour government (so not those nasty transphobic Tories) are I’m the process of implementing its recommendations.

But hey maybe you know better than the NHS.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493755#Comment_123493755

The Cass report has been thoroughly discredited

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493490#Comment_123493490

How would you describe a person who's gender and sex match up?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493864#Comment_123493864

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493864#Comment_123493864

LOL No it hasn't.

Some trans activists have made a stab at doing so alright, but nobody objective and with proper scientific credentials. And they haven't managed, because if it had been possible to discredit it, the Labour Party government would never have taken on the findings of a committee set up by the Conservatives.

They would have liked nothing so much as to be able to blame Tory incompetence to enable them to get rid of something that is deeply embarrassing to them, given their years of insisting that women could have penises and that some men can grow a cervix.