Deposit return scheme (recycling)

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121961309#Comment_121961309

just finished reading that. So basically their current return rate is 10.5%. Very long way from their target goal of 90!
But then again i can also look at this in a different way that disgusts me, that way being that the other 89.5% of return logo stock purchased (that ones that was'nt returned), they've gotten to keep all the deposits on.

it feels really backwards towards their goal and more befitting off of people buying more plastic/tin and not recycling them via the rvm. Return stand to benefit more from people's non-participate after buying a return logo container. We can really see more and more now that this scheme is more about money than anything else. The whole pro-green thing is just a bonus plus for PR. Stats and money appear to be the priority here.

i've calculated, out of the 200 million containers sold and only 21,018,360 returned. Re-turn has made anywhere between €26,847,246 and €44,745,410 from the unreturned containers/unclaimed deposits thusfar. (almost 27 mil at the least and 45 million at the very most possible) And thus people who are buying the containers and binning/squishing them are giving return free money, only encouraging return further via financially supporting them.

jj880

Going to be very hard to convince the public this isnt a flat out scam without some transparency on total unclaimed deposits and where they're going. "Re-Turn is not-for-profit" isnt going to cover it.

Quay_Koncept

I am a religous recycler of aluminium cans and plastics and glass. It simple pays to recycle, I am very particular about my green and brown bins making sure everything is in the correct bin. This scheme is a pain in the back side. I went to lidl the other day about 4pm there was a que for the recycle machine hindering access and exit from the store. I spoke to the casheir and he said its a pain for staff as it regularly blocks up and they need to send someone from the floor to fix it so they are a person down. Ohhh well Ill have to get used to it so!

downtheroad

At super valu Raheny yesterday the machine wasn't working , so a shop assistant came out with a sweeping brush and rammed the handle into the machine to try to dislodge whatever was blocking the machine from working.

Safety101.

If a shop assistant gets a serious injury from trying to fix these awful, not fit for purpose machines, that will be the end of the scheme.

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121961382#Comment_121961382

yes exactly, and the thing is this €27-45 million is just extra money they took from people, extra money people had to pay on the purchase of those products, extra money that never needed to be added in the first place if ireland were properly handing our recycleables and actually recycling instead of burning and selling them to begin with. caused this mess and the consumers are being made to clean it up and being punished for it.

The low recycling numbers is their problem not ours, and they're making money off of their own problem. It does'nt matter if they're a not-for-profit or whatever excuse/wherever the money is put into, the fact still stands that they're taking that extra money from customers who now have to pay more money on drink things they buy. in a way its bullying and a blatant extortion no matter how they mask it.

conclusion: if we buy drinks we're being forced to partake in helping them fix their problem of low recycling stats, in return what do we get? nothing, we break even at best! minus the time spent partaking, we're actually at a loss as we cannot get time back. Meanwhile those of us who disregard our deposits being held at ransom and decide to forgo them entirely (willingly or unwillingly as some don't have a choice) by taking it as a tax and not using the rvm's (those who don't help fix the problem of low recycling stats) are being robbed/taxed for not helping fix the country's recycling numbers problem. we help we get no reward or payment, just our own money back. we don't help we get deposit taxed, we don't buy the products with the deposit fee then we're forced to buy from the north or entirely do without the product. We're being snookered here lads. Unless manufacterers start making non-deposit taxable containers, but who's to say they won't be greedy and charge even more money for them! already seen the whole airport water increase via pro green container scandal. whether its true or not, its still serves as an example. When it comes to more enviormentally friendly packaging, we shouldn't be forced to pay extra for that! its bs.

pauly58

It's just another fool of an idea, the same as the doors on the alcohol aisles in supermarkets was going to solve the drink problem. It would be one thing if you got a reduction in the cost of having your green bin collected, we are 1/2 hr drive to our nearest recycling centre, plastic bottles & cans have always gone there, & will continue to go there.

Quay_Koncept

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121961468#Comment_121961468

Those doors are just so ridiculous, I assumed they would not open when alcohol was not allowed to be sold but they are retract all the time. Just such an odd idea. I am however impressed with the mechanical mechanism that is ables to retract an open them thousands of times a day with a very small failure rate.

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121961468#Comment_121961468

there should be a law made that prevents them from simply upping the price to solve a problem, or to not allow them to tax a problem. When they tax a problem they're only making money off of the problem. At best it only prevents low-income area's from having the ability to partake in the problem without actually solving the problem. Same can be argued with fines and taxes of all sorts. Rich people can still get away with it and have the privledge/luxury of the problem due to being able to afford it. its like how many times the rich get off scot-free from ever facing jail too! remember its called a "fine" because "ahh thats fine you can do that aslong as u pay us a bit extra, will be grand"

with this deposit scheme, its just seen by many as another green tax

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951257#Comment_121951257

They’re not free though, everyone pays tax towards it.

JayRoc

"They’re not free though, everyone pays tax towards it"

This, this, a million times this.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962052#Comment_121962052

What do you mean? I pay taxes like everyone else - but we never had a collection service, free or otherwise till a private company came in and started serving the area. Was and still are glad to pay them for this as saved a lot of hassle.

Maybe my taxes were paying for your free service as well and now you have to pony up?? Life's tough ain't it :)

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121961462#Comment_121961462

"The low recycling numbers is their problem not ours, and they're making money off of their own problem. It doesn't matter if they're a not-for-profit or whatever excuse/wherever the money is put into, the fact still stands that they're taking that extra money from customers who now have to pay more money on drink things they buy. in a way its bullying and a blatant extortion no matter how they mask it."

That nails it well. The Green Party minister picking the sexy Green Tech option and penalising the public, instead of putting in the work to improve the existing system.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962310#Comment_121962310

Not particularly. I don’t pay for bins currently. So it’s no skin off my nose. How about being annoyed at your local council rather than other poster over your lack of refuse collection, more chance of the issue being resolved, especially with local elections coming up.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962571#Comment_121962571

No point in being annoyed at the local council, when you've never had a service in the first place. Good to see bin charges coming in more widely though in recent years, now they need to do the same for public water & sewage. I suppose you can stick out a few rain barrels too.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962690#Comment_121962690

I'm all for paying for services and utilities, but the likes of refuse collection, water and such should be public services. Whether they are paid for at the point of service or via general taxation is less of an issue for me.

GSBellew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963999#Comment_121963999

Refuse is a service, so if you are happy to pay for services you should be happy to pay for the service of having your waste collected and disposed off, it is a very strange mindset to expect to be absolved of the responsibility of dealing with the wast you produce.

Where do you draw the line between what you expect to come out of general taxation? Should the council cut your grass and clean your windows & gutters whilst they are cleaning up after you?

All seems very communist to me. Would be completely contrary to the polluter pays concept, there would be no incentive to produce less waste if its disposal was free at source, as it stands you can pay less by having a smaller bin, or opting out of a bin service completely and taking your waste to a civic amenity centre and paying to dispose of it there.

As for the re-turn thing, like anything it is no big deal when you get used to it, bit of a pain now when there are still non deposit bottles and cans about as you have to segregate them, but when it is in full swing it will be easier, it has just meant a third bin in the kitchen, waste recycling and return, simple.

badboyblast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121961398#Comment_121961398

do you not feel the design of the recycle bin is flawed and every time you open it, if not under a shelter, it lets in water in this country and all the items inside the bin get soaked?

BorneTobyWilde

The system needs to be the same as buying the product, manual returns are essential, and there should be 1000s of dedicated manual return depots around the country, along with the machines.

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964056#Comment_121964056

i understand what both of you are saying, but i think the main issue is'nt "paying for the service" itself, but rather the fact that the council used to deal with waste collection but then sold it off to private bin companies as a service to compete for by privatizing it which then in turn allows the companys to come up with their own prices and payment options for this "service" rather than having it being done seemingly free like it was once before

(i know it actually wasnt ever free and obviously the money for it came from somwhere or from some tax or other, but to the average person that pays taxes and does'nt know where it goes, to them it seemed invisible and i don't blame them for seeing it that way either, so for simplicity sake i'll reffer to it as free, meaning we did'nt pay a private company from our bank account for the service of bin collection)

paying for bins felt like we lost a public service, just like how many would feel if we lost free water and had to pay irish water, for water. Now even our recycleables are being monopolized/privatized/taxed with this deposit return scheme.

lertsnim

I only go when I have amassed a large amount of bottles/cans so have only been to a machine once since the scheme started. I am sure there will be others like me so the low return rate might just be people who are waiting until they have enough empty bottles and cans.

The solution to the low return rate will probably be to increase the levy on bottles and cans in the shops. More money is always their solution.

ELM327

I tried the system again at the weekend, big bag of cans all purchased after 1st feb with the levy paid at purchase.

Still 30-40% of the bag not accepted by barcode, despite some of the cans having the logo?

This system was and is nonsense. Quarterly trips up north will be my resolution to this. Buying multiple 24can slabs of beer to avoid MUP and this nonsense tax, as well as multipacks of monster/rockstar cans (my personal affliction).

sydthebeat

Made two trips to the local supervalu over the weekend to deposit a bag, both times the machine was out of order.

SteM

Was passing through Citywest yesterday and one of the machines was broken and there was a queue of 5 or 6 people at the other one. There would be no way I'd be going to use those machines on a BH Monday of what was a 4 day weekend for a lot of people. I'd even be steering clear of them today tbh.

jj880

If RVMs being out of order or not accepting in scope containers continues this scheme should be scrapped.

What good is increasing the deposits if the fundamentals are not working?

Machines that accept 100s of containers dumped into them need to be added. Whether that's beside local bottle banks or at recycling centres it doesnt matter. The money looks to be there. Millions of euro in unclaimed deposits already.

Surely better machines fall under the "other recycling initiatives" to be funded by deposits we keep hearing about?

This gombeen nonsense of pushing people into the store where you get your voucher is not working.

Anaki r2d2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964414#Comment_121964414

yip, best solution to avoid this nonsense in shopping up North. Easter weekend two different shops near me, both machines out of order.

Genghis

Been away for a couple of days so not been able to comment on the numbers re-turn announced.

The last I seen was for Saturday 30 March, reporting up to Friday 29 March. On that day they reported 21,018,360 containers as of Friday 29 March, including a record day of 1.267m containers for Good Friday.

Setting these in context then to get a daily collection record, I looked back to the previous number - 15.8m containers as cited by the CEO on Weds 27, which I had assumed related to numbers as of say end Tues 26.

However, if the 15.8m related to Tues that would mean in the 3 days to Friday 5.2m units were collected, which in turn would mean Friday's 1.2m 'record' would not be correct. I therefore assume the 15.8m containers were up to Sunday evening (24 March), and the 5.2m were for 5 days, or an average of around 1m per day.

What we can say is that the overall collection rate of items sold vs items returned is likely less than 10% (300m items sold, <25m returned), we have to make allowance for items that have been sold in the period without deposit (old stock). Very hard to know that number unless re-turn tell us.

That said, I believe we are well over 4m units being soled per day with deposit, so at average run rate of 1m collected per day our daily collection ratio seems to be around 25% now. This is an uplift from the 10% estimated in early March, but obviously needs to get far higher if the scheme is deemed to be working as expected (65% recycling rate previously needs to be exceeded fairly soon, and close to 90% needs to be met by 2029).

The other interesting stat released is the number of items per visit. The 21m items were returned across 6.89m transactions - i.e. the average return is just 3 items. This seems low to me, an average payout of just 60c. I would say to have an average of 3 items there must be lots of single or 2-item transactions, so payouts as little as 15c. This could be a lot of people trialling the system, but could also be people who had numerous items to return and only succcessfully returned an averag of 3 (very concerning). Just my opinion, but if as a population we buy 2-3 containers a day on average per household, I would have expected an average of maybe 6-10 items per transaction.

I hope re-turn give some comprehensive stats for March, its very much open to interpretation the level of success so far.

Sources of recent stats:

https://www.newstalk.com/news/deposit-return-21-million-containers-returned-since-start-of-scheme-1711421

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/only-fraction-containers-bought-under-32479323

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962052#Comment_121962052

But when we privatised it we didn't see a reduction in taxes so it felt free

Was in Tesco at the crescent yesterday. Machine was out of order. It was actually full so a staff member had to take the wheelie bin away and replace it with another bin which needed another bag. The machine then had to be re-started (powered off and on again) for some reason. Overall from arrival at the machine to finally getting the voucher it took about 20 minutes. Only fast part was the physical return

The queue would have been much longer only for people walked away without disposing of the cans/bottles.

Contrast that to a DRS trial currently going on in Thomond Park at the bars. Pay for the drink as usual. Pay €1 deposit per drink and get it in a nice hard-plastic cup (far better than the soft plastic disposable sh1te cups they used to have) return the cups to the bar then no deposit on the next order. If you don't want to order a beer, there's a fella who will take the cups off you and give you the deposit back in cash there and then, no messing about. Ironically they have a re-turn exemption as a hospitality provider

In good news I have heard a rumour that the lidl "crafty brewing company" purple labeled drink is now back in glass bottles. If true it's a good win for the scheme

GSBellew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964212#Comment_121964212

You have to go back 30 years here to get to the point were bin's became privatized, for most of the country it is pretty much long forgotten and accepted as the norm.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965025#Comment_121965025

Hopefully this scheme highlights the need to de-privatise bin collections among other things.

I think if we went back to the old system of paying for waste collection through taxation people wouldn't care about these unreliable machines or the other many downfalls that are here. Other benefits like pensions for the bin truck drivers would be massive

ameathdub

Three seperate attempts at three different stores to return empty bottles for deposit refund

On all occasions the machines were full or out of service and I had to bring them back home.

Are retailers obliged to refund the customers money if the machines are not working? In my experience so far the machines are highly unreliable or else not maintained correctly.

It was so much easier using the Green bin for plastic but hopefuly they will solve the problems with these machines soon