DCM 2023 Mentored Novices Thread

MisterJinx · 25-06-2023 8:38pm

Hello everyone, so here we are, the eve of your Marathon training :-)

As of Monday you are all in training for the Dublin City Marathon! I also see we have a few others just joined us over the last couple of days so welcome and a shout out to all the readers out there, each year there are plenty of people who follow the plans but aren't ones for posting (there is one in my own house!), so Hi everyone.

So please do use the next 18 weeks wisely and follow our advice, you will line up that morning feeling super prepared and ready to take on the challenge. Put in the training & commitment over the coming months and you will reap the rewards. Sometimes it's hard, sometimes it really sucks but ultimately you will be one of very few people in the world who have run a marathon and you will be very proud of yourself when you cross the finish line.

Here's what the week starting the 26th holds for those following our plans:

As you will see most of the running is at easy pace. To repeat the earlier post, this is a pace you should be able to hold a conversation at, you should feel relaxed and not out of breath in any way. It should feel slow, if it doesn't then you are running too fast ;-)

It might be useful to print off your chosen plan and stick it in a prominent place, on the fridge or wherever. Another useful tip is to keep a log of your training, this can be done either by creating one here online or simply by writing it down. It is good to see what pace you actually ran & compare it to what your were supposed to run, also it is a great way of seeing how you felt on that day before & after your run, the foods you eat, how you hydrate etc. Last year I found it really helpful to see everyone's progress reports on the thread each week, all the feedback and thoughts which were similar to my own and the sense of camaraderie when, for most of us, we are training on our own.

The plans have a prescribed number of days for a reason - you will not be sufficiently prepared for the marathon by running 2-3 days a week. Run easy and run often!

For those doing the boards plan, strides feature this week. For those new to strides read below;

Strides are a running drill which will get you used to picking up the pace on tired legs without leaving your legs wrecked! In this case the strides prescribed should be 100m or 20-30 seconds long. We recommend you do the strides towards the end of your run preferably on a flat stretch of even road. These are not intended to induce fatigue, so allow for full recovery after each before attempting the next one. Jogging or walking back to the start after each stride should allow sufficient recovery, but take longer if required.

Each stride consists of 3 equal parts:

- controlled acceleration

- sustained speed of up to 90% of your max speed

- controlled deceleration

The important thing is to focus on form throughout; stay relaxed & run tall, watch that the shoulders aren’t being hunched/tensed up! Do not do a full on sprint, it's not the objective to go as fast as you can, the objective is to run fast but controlled all the way.

In case anyone missed it we've also set up a Strava group for the Novices. You can join this group, it's private, and from there myself and @Kellygirl and @skyblue46 will be able to see your training. You don't need to join of course but if you want to you are very welcome and it allows us to give you feedback on what we see.

Click the link below to request to join however you will need to PM me with your real name in order to be accepted into the group. We will only let in people who have come to us first. https://strava.app.link/pGObfMgHLAb

Remember that consistency & commitment is really important to get you to marathon day. Keep us updated on your progress, and as always, any questions - just ask, that's what we are here for! This is the start of an amazing journey - The very best of luck to you all.

Seesee · 28-06-2023 11:52pm

I crashed and burned after wmm and haven’t run since. I have a bad piriformis injury and affecting adductors and it band so I am rightly fecked!! Even walking has not been pain free. Am going to a good therapist now and recovery under way but won’t be running for another 4 weeks I’d say. At that stage it may be too late to attempt marathon training, might be too much too soon. I’ll have to wait and see. Didn’t to refund and might not do transfer as want to keep option opeN as long as possible. From jan I was doing 25-30km a week but my fitness is going to be affected. And I can’t swim as I’m allergic to chlorine it seems. 😱

Best of luck to all starting training this week. Hope it’s going well. I envy you all 🤣

MisterJinx · 29-06-2023 10:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780305#Comment_120780305

Hi Seesee, that is really disappointing for you :-( You have taken the right steps in terms of getting professional help and looking to keep off the running until you are better. You will really need to listen to the medical advice you get and then make your decision. Consider where you are at now and where you will be in a month, it's tough but you will know a lot more then.

MiniMonstera · 29-06-2023 11:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780305#Comment_120780305

Ah gutted for you SeeSee. Here's hoping you can turn it around in time!

Pawwed Rig · 29-06-2023 12:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781492#Comment_120781492

Agreed but don't push too hard. If the time is not right better to defer the marathon rather than hurt yourself running and sustaining a longer term injury.

kevinfkennedy · 29-06-2023 5:11pm

Blast off .. best of luck everyone .. Misterjinx I just sent you a request to join the Strava group. Thank you

kevinfkennedy · 29-06-2023 9:30pm

Just a quick one .. I’m hoping to run the Marathon around around 5:40 min per km and am doing my slow runs a minute slower at 6:40 min per km, it’s takes getting used to but I’m going ok so far. Question : my long slow runs on a Saturday.. Should they be done even slower .. possibly 7:00 min per km … thank you

MisterJinx · 29-06-2023 10:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120784610#Comment_120784610

Hi Kev, I did all my lsr's at below easy pace, about 15 to 20 seconds slower per km.

There is no harm going slower again as this increases the time on your feet. Right now it's all about getting the body used to running for a really long period of time so the more time on your feet the better you are prepared.

You also want to minimise the impact on your body on those runs so the slower the better. If you are happy with 7mins per km then do it, it won't harm your training and makes recovery easier.

witnessmenow · 30-06-2023 10:57am

Hey all, hope the training is going well!

Question about the mileage in the plans, with training for the half marathon next weekend, my current weekly mileage (~27-30M) is a good bit higher than the HH plan and I'm bit unsure what to do about that when I get into the swings of marathon training.

I assume week 3 will be a bit a recovery week for me after the half, but barring anything unforeseen, I would assume I'll be back on the horse for week 4, but that is a 17 mile week which is a pretty decent drop in mileage and it doesn't get back to 30 again til week 10 or 11

Seeing as the HH plans is based nearly exclusively on easy runs, I assume, if I'm feeling up for it, increasing the mileage compared to the plan isn't really a big deal? Or should I really be trying to stick the plan like gospel?

Lazare · 01-07-2023 11:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120786261#Comment_120786261

I would suggest sticking with your current mileage and let the plan catch up with you.

Beef up the easy running to make it up. I wouldn't increase any of the harder effort stuff.

MisterJinx · 01-07-2023 2:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120786261#Comment_120786261

If I'm not wrong this is your first HM? If I'm right then don't underestimate the amount of recovery that you will need. I would say at least 2 weeks of paired back running compared to what you've been doing. It'll take a bit out of you so don't expect to be back full guns blazing after it.

You have put in a big effort to get yourself in hm shape so, both mentally and physically, take the break and the recovery and the gains that you have made, bank them, and use them for the marathon.

Once you have the HM done come back and tell us how it went and how you are feeling. We can do any adjustments to the plan then.

Just remember we want to get you to the start line fit and healthy 😀

Bungy Girl · 02-07-2023 3:51pm

Hi, hope everyone had a good week 😀

Week 1 done and dusted here (Boards plan). Was able to stick to the schedule with just a couple of adjustments (did my LSR today instead of Saturday). Took a rest day on Friday. Not much cross training - one trip to the gym, one game of tennis and a short cycle. Total for the week 24.9 miles. I've slowed the pace right down and noticed my average HR is lower so I guess that's good! Paranoid about niggles so will try to get to the gym more than once next week.

MisterJinx · 03-07-2023 9:18am

DCM Training: Week 2!

Before I get to Week 2, I'd like each of you to do a quick self appraisal of how week 1 went for you.

Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?
Did you run the easy runs at an appropriate pace?

Hopefully you all got in the required runs majority & you are not running too fast. You can't cheat the marathon - take a half-assed approach to the training and it will bite you in the backside come the big day.

Onto Week 2, and here’s what’s instore for the week ahead:

This week sees the Boards plan feature the first PMP (Planned Marathon Pace) run! This is an opportunity to run a little bit faster than your easy pace but please please try to be realistic and conservative when picking your PMP.

The table below indicates roughly the marathon pace (in km or in miles) required for the various target times at 15 minute intervals:

Marathon | Pace/km | Pace/mi

3:30 | 5:00 | 8:00

3:45 | 5:20 | 8:35

4:00 | 5:40 | 9:10

4:15 | 6:00| 9:45

4:30 | 6:20 | 10:20

4:45 | 6:40 | 10:50

5:00 | 7:00 | 11:25

5:15 | 7:20 | 12:00

5:30 | 7:40 | 12:35

5:45 | 8:00 | 13:05

6:00 | 8:20 | 13:40

The warm up and cool down can be done at your easy pace, i.e. - at least 45-60 seconds per mile slower than PMP

Last year it was many weeks into the plan before I knew my own marathon pace. I'd no idea really although the training paces calculator helped a good bit by slotting in my last race time. For these first few weeks take a reasonable guess and go with it. Over the next few weeks you will have a better feel as to whether you think you can hold that pace for 3, 4 or 5 hours and you'll adjust as you go along.

Best of luck to everyone for the week ahead

Runner2023 · 03-07-2023 12:48pm

Happy to have made it through the first week relatively unscathed. I manged to squeeze everything I wanted to in, including the gym twice. I took a rest day on Friday and ended up on 37km for the week. I had run about 30km and 25km the previous two weeks having done practically nothing for months before that so I'm delighted that it's been reasonably manageable so far.

I did throw in a km at something approaching race pace towards the end my long run because I was feeling good. Curious to hear what people's thoughts are on deviating from the plan a little. I've been running the easy stuff very slow for the most part, trying to keep my heart rate between 120-126 which really reigns me in. The long run is a hell of lot easier in the milder weather!

I have no real idea what my race pace will be for the marathon so I think I'll try between 5:30/5:40/km this week and see how I get on.

I know it will depend greatly on the individual but broadly speaking, how much improvement is it reasonable to expect pace-wise as you make your way through the plan? Or is it more a case of locking in a pace and just working towards maintaining it for the marathon distance?

At the minute I'm just planning on using the various races to get an idea of what I'm capable of and making a final decision on pacing based off my half-marathon time.

Sunny Dayz · 03-07-2023 3:24pm

Apologies - first week of the Novices thread and I skip the country and the plan!! I'm following a plan as laid out by my club so I will post what it is each week.

Was away on my first sun holiday in 5 years. Had great intentions of early morning runs along the prom. Reality was Mon morn a sweaty hot mess hungover run, managed a mile out and rounded it up to 3.5km to finish. The hotel was great for activities though so 3 circuit classes, aqua aerobics, spin class, an 11km cycle along the coast. The running guilts sent in as the week went on and got out earlier on Sat morn, was tough for the first km or 2 but at 2.5km I nearly didn't want to turn back and really enjoyed it. Back in Ireland and a better temperature for running. Ran a 5km out and back with husband and I then went out and back 5km the other direction on my own to bring it up to 10km. Total distance for the week 18.7km

MisterJinx · 03-07-2023 3:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120795604#Comment_120795604

Great stuff Bungy Girl. The adjustments like that are completely normal and very good to see that the HR is down, that is where you want it to be.

Clareview · 03-07-2023 3:26pm

How week 1 went for you...

Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not? Yep all runs in, 37km total for the week!
Did you run the easy runs at an appropriate pace? all ran at 6.30 - 6.40/km pace approx.. ran LSR at what worked out to a 6.32/km avg so this was def too fast. Was very windy out so pacing per each km was up to 25secs difference for some!

MisterJinx · 03-07-2023 3:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120798975#Comment_120798975

Very well done. The HR cap is also another good way to keep your easy pace easy and it looks like it's working for you, keep it up.

Honestly I don't think you need to be adding any fast km's into the plan. There are strides, MP and hills over the next few weeks and they will get you what you need.

Based on your 5k time you gave us then I think you are fine to go with the suggested range for the MP session. Everyone is different so it would be hard to give you a number but you will see an improvement in your times as you go through the plan. The tune up races in the series will give you a good benchmark to see where you are at and if you have improved your times. Some people lock in a pace, I tended to try and lock in an effort i.e. can I hold this pace for 4 hours and worked from there, it meant I didn't settle on a pace or target time until a couple of weeks before the marathon, but you've 17 weeks to work that out so don't worry about it right now, just keep getting the runs in :-) I think you know it based on your comment but the HM in September is really the best indicator.

MisterJinx · 03-07-2023 5:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120799866#Comment_120799866

Well done, I can see the satisfaction :-)

I would say you can easily pull those paces back a bit, based on your 5K you are at the very top end of easy - this week try and get it below 6.40 (I know it's not easy but see if you can do it). It's good practice for when your LSR is much much longer!

Seifer · 03-07-2023 8:53pm

So I've decided to follow the boards plan with only one real tweak; I want to keep the mileage up but can only commit to running 5 days a week at the moment so splitting one of the optional 5km runs across the Tuesday and Thursday.

This means I ran 7.5, 6.5, 7.5, 14, 3 km last week for a total of 38.5 km. Long run was 1 km extra as Google Maps was out by a kilometer on the route I put in.

With regards to the easy running question; I know my Thursday run was too fast (5:49 min/km) and I've already written it down that I need to take them easier. Have my Garmin set to beep at me when I go too fast but sometimes you just feel you have too much energy to run that slow. Also feels like my gait is bordering on a shuffle around the 6 min/km mark.

Like Runner2023 I threw in a MP km near the end of my long run for no particular reason (boredom? Feel like I need to challenge myself a bit more?) so it was probably too fast too.

Was watching a few of Stephen Scullion's videos during the week (they're very good for anyone that hasn't stumbled across him). Two things jumped out that I want to incorporate; one is not letting life influence your easy days e.g. you're pissed off at work so you go out and run fast when you're supposed to be taking it easy. The second was around discipline and taking the same discipline you might apply to other aspects of your training/life and apply them to your easy running.

Louis 2018 · 03-07-2023 11:53pm

I'd like each of you to do a quick self appraisal of how week 1 went for you.

Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not? Yes, all runs as per week 1 of boards programme, enjoyable week with nice mild weather and no travel for work which helped :)
Did you run the easy runs at an appropriate pace? Ran the easy runs at around 6:05/km and long run on Sat at 6:20/km. I'm using 5:40 odd as my race pace and tbh I think I would find it difficult to run any slower but will try add a few seconds. I'm feeling very comfortable at that pace, average heart rate for lsr was 150, hitting a max of 163. Recovery run was at same pace pretty much as lsr.

Lumen · 04-07-2023 9:27am

Not running this week due to surgery recovery but thought I'd throw my data into the easy pace discussion.

My 5k-10k race pace is 4:15-4:35/km @ 170bpm average and my easy/conversational run pace is about 6:30/km @ <140bpm. I could definitely run slower than that, it's my superpower 😀

No idea what my marathon pace will end up at but I've no intention of running faster than 140bpm unless doing specific MP workouts, strides or prep races.

My HR limits are resting @ 50 and max prob 185-ish.

MiniMonstera · 04-07-2023 10:59am

Definitely happy with the pace I ran on the easy runs. Unfortunately I didn't get to complete all running miles in the week because I was away for 4 days but I did the Saturday lsr yesterday (Monday), so if I include that I clocked 30km. I also walked for 17km on the Saturday so I'm going to allow that as cross training (not logging it obvs). I'll just jump back into the plan from today.

Officially entered for dcm as my transfer came through yesterday 😃

Edited to add: the lsr was quite tough coming back ( elevated seafront route) so although I kept pace circa 7.30 p/km I got a good workout

MisterJinx · 04-07-2023 3:11pm

@Seifer Yes probably a bit too fast, if you can get it down to the 6m/km it will do well for you. Agree on the discipline, it's hard to do but it applies to both getting out for the runs and then when you are on the runs. Honestly I'd expect most people to be feeling good and fresh at the moment, it's only week 1 :-) , but as we go on and the distances increases each week I think you'll find that you'll be less inclined to throw in the odd MP kilometre ;-)

@Louis 2018 well done, in the right zone there and if you can slow a tad more it would be great for you. As HR reading are individual it's hard to comment on those but if it's in the same range as your easy runs then it's in the right place.

@Lumen Best of luck with the recovery, hope it goes well :-) Sounds like your superpower is perfectly suited for Marathon training. I use the HR cap method too and it works, it means if your tired or whatever that you are not forcing a pace but listening to the body.

@MiniMonstera great, life gets in the way, there was an LSR run in my house too on Monday just because of weekend stuff on. Walking definitely counts as cross training, I read somewhere that it is good for recovery actually as it's low impact but keeps the blood circulation up to the legs - I'd need to go find that reference though for it to be taken as gospel.

Crunchy23 · 04-07-2023 6:25pm

Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not? Yes, I ran 6 times throughout the week, a total of 46km. I completed 74km the previous week so it felt like I could have and should have done a lot more, but I am trying to stick to the Boards plan.
Did you run the easy runs at an appropriate pace? I done my recovery run at an average pace of 6.49/km and my easy run at 5.33/km. I would love to aim for a MP of 5/km so the easy runs should probably have been slower. My LSR was a bit slower at 5.50/km. I tried to keep the HR in zone 2 for the entirety of the recovery run (my avg. HR was 125) and in low zone 3 for the easy run (my avg. HR was 140)

MisterJinx · 04-07-2023 9:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120805219#Comment_120805219

Recovery and LSR are sport on and I know you know yourself that the easy was too fast. You could do a little reading up on heart rate zones, I'm no expert at all but my understanding is that easy is Zone 2, Zone 3 is that "grey area" whereas zone 2 is aerobic building and where you want to be for 80% of your running

Louis 2018 · 04-07-2023 9:25pm

Hi All

The below may be of interest, taken from the Garmin website https://www.garmin.com/en-US/blog/general/get-zone-train-using-heart-rate/

Zone 1 is 60-70% of threshold heart rate (the 220 minus your age). This is a very light intensity effort. Think nice walking pace where you can carry on a conversation.

Zone 2 is 70-80% of threshold heart rate. Think of this as a warm-up or cool-down run. Easy conversation pace as well.

Zone 3 is 80-90% of threshold heart rate. This is a long run type of effort. Breathing a bit harder here but I would say comfortable.

Zone 4 is 90-100% of threshold heart rate. Harder intensity effort. You can reply in single word responses. Tempo type of run. Raising lactate threshold levels.

Zone 5 is 100-110% of threshold heart rate. Think of sprinting to the finish line. Cannot hold a conversation.

skyblue46 · 04-07-2023 9:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120806007#Comment_120806007

First of all let me say that I'm a huge advocate of running by HR but that comes with one huge BUT. That is that your base numbers must be accurate. 220-age as a max is not a good starting point. I'm 56 and have a max of 186. If I remember correctly @Murph_D has a higher max HR and is older. Secondly, unless you use a chest strap you can pretty much dismiss the numbers you get from the watch. Thirdly, threshold is not 220-age. It will most probably be at about 10% below max. I think that's a bit unclear from the table posted...

Don't be overcomplicating things. Do easy runs at least 90 secs slower per mile than a realistic marathon pace target.

Lumen · 04-07-2023 10:10pm

That Garmin site blog is nonsense. 220-age is a rough estimate (in absence of any other data) of the max HR, not of threshold (and there are multiple "thresholds" although commonly "threshold" refers to hour-max-effort-ish. But the blog can't be referring to max HR because it says zone 5 is up to 110% of it.

For me the MAF 180 formula (180-age) is close to the upper limit of easy pace, but I still didn't like the result and so kept shopping for a formula that I did like, based on heart rate reserve :-)

Anyway, "conversational pace" cuts through all the maths nonsense but as I usually run alone I do get some odd looks from the dog walkers.

Murph_D · 04-07-2023 10:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120806097#Comment_120806097

Yep, I'm 62, my max is well over 190. Haven't hit it in a while - it's probably a beat or two below the 196 I use to record fairly regularly up to a couple of years ago. The 220-age 'rule of thumb', as mentioned above, is useless.

I totally agree with Skyblue. Running by HR is great but only if you know your max and resting HR really well.

85% of HR reserve (around 88-90% of max) is a good rule of thumb for threshold, if you don't know the number from testing.

But yes, running by HR for a first marathon is overcomplicating things. Too many other things to worry about. Choose a reasonable target based on your running history and/or training experiences and go out and try to hit it. Good luck!

DCM 2023 Mentored Novices Thread

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