DCM 2023 Mentored Novices Thread

MisterJinx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120637112#Comment_120637112

Hi Kevin, glad that you are getting stuck into the plan already :-) Quick couple of things, the plan starts at the end of June rather than the start of June (eager beaver!) however now would be what's called a base building phase, so very much about getting a nice controlled build up over the next 5 weeks to running around 20 miles per week. Very similar to the advice I've just given above, it's about adding a little distance or an extra run slowly over the time to bring yourself to the first week of the plan.

To your specific question, it's warm up and cool down :-) And I'm glad you pointed them out as they are important parts of your run whatever you may think. It's very important to take that first mile very easy, eaking it out as long as possible and you can also add a few dynamic exercises like star jumps, lunges or skips to be best in class!. The reason we do this is that if you walk out the door and start to do 3 miles / 5 miles at a "pace" before your body has warmed up then it's probably pretty obvious what will happen......Then the cool down gets the body to slow down.

When you get a chance can you pop your answers to the questions to give us a bit more background to your running please

masterK

It's Warm up and cool down.

Seifer

Hi all,

I picked up running during Covid and never really had any intentions of running a marathon but here we are!

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)

Raced, no, all my PB's are solo time trials. 5k 19:57 (01/06/22), Half Marathon 1:42:19 (06/07/21)

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? (No problem if you do)

No

How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.

So the most relevant thing is probably that a month after my 5k PB my first child was born so running took a back seat for awhile. I ran a 22:08 5k at the start of May which is probably an accurate enough reflection of current fitness.

Right now I'm base building (getting out 4 times a week) with a view to being at 40 km a week to enable kicking off a plan 18 weeks out from DCM. Also cycle 9~km in and out of work twice a week.

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?

Main target would be sub 4; have calculated training paces to aim for 3:50.

How many days a week can you train? And what plan do you intend to follow?

Can probably get out 5 days. The plan question is what I need help with! I was thinking of Hal Higdon's Intermediate 1 but now I keep looking at it and having second thoughts about the complete lack of any sort of speed/tempo work.

What is your biggest worry/fear/doubt (if you have any!) in signing up?

Main worry would be picking up injuries in training. Desk job so tight hips, glutes, etc. Try to do the S&C work I need to be doing when I can. Picked up a lot of niggles doing speed work trying to break sub-20 on the 5k. Finally cracked it by eliminating most of it and just focusing on building mileage (peaked at 60km week). Which maybe means Hal's plan is ideal?

Why are you running this marathon?

It seems like as good as time as any to take it on.

MisterJinx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120642407#Comment_120642407

Hi Seifer,

Welcome to the club :-) Very happy to have you join us.

Really happy to see that you are doing a nice and controlled based build now to get up the frequency and distance of the running over the next few weeks. It will really stand to you and also help in terms of figuring out when you can run, which can be very tricky when you’re also trying to manage little ones at home.

 For you specifically I am going to recommend that you need to book some races over the summer. For others here I’ve mentioned that this is important in terms of getting a base for where you are at in terms of fitness (the May TT will help) however you could really benefit from some race day experience. You’d be very surprised at how much goes into getting prepped for a race: organisation the night before and on the morning, managing start line nerves, race pacing, fuelling for longer distances etc. If you can, do you think you could even get to a park to kick yourself off with racing? It’s a very friendly environment and they are available in every county in the country.

 Both of the board’s plans, in my opinion, would be suitable for you. 

The Hal Higdon Novices Plan has no “speed” work at all and the focus is very much on building the aerobic base and it also considers cross training which fits in nicely with your cycles to work.

The boards plan for 2023 is for slightly more experienced runners and does include some “speed” work however this is not speed like you would have done for the 5k, you are looking at some marathon paced work and some strides on a weekly basis. Looking at our history and times I would be leaning towards this plan for you with the mileage you can currently cover.

At the moment I wouldn’t be concerned with times however a point to note for everybody : Your training paces are not based off the time you want to get in the marathon, they are based on your current fitness and latest race times / measured times.

As we work our way through the weeks you’ll be able to update your training paces based on the races you’ve done. So if you knock 3 minutes off your 5k or 10k or HM pb’s then using https://runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php we can update the paces and look at times for equivalent distances. 

Seifer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120643112#Comment_120643112

Thanks for the detailed reply MisterJinx!

The lack of actual race experience is something I'm conscious of so I've signed to the full DCM race series to plug that gap. Plenty of park runs nearby (based in South Dublin) but I've only done the Marlay one once in October '21 (21:53). I found I usually wanted to run long at the weekend so couldn't find a good way to work the park runs in regularly.

I'll have a closer look at the Boards plan; it does look more interesting from a variety point of view. The one thing I want to avoid is plan hopping after a few weeks in!

MECA

Hi again, think I’m going to follow the boards plan with a little tweak as the club have a speed session once a week so I might try and fall in with that.

I’m kind of newish to following plans so I was wondering… the lsr pace .. is that the same as easy pace? Or should it be slightly faster or slower? Always confuses me in plans when I see the two listed differently. Probably won’t make much difference anyway as I’ll be dead from warmer summer running so they’ll be both the same pace anyhow for me 🤪.

MisterJinx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120643859#Comment_120643859

No problem at all !! There was actually something in there for everyone as well.

Great call on the race series, for the park run you could run a very easy few k, perhaps to it from your house, then do the 5k and then a slow jog home again, it incorporates the distance and warm up and cool down.

The boards plan does have a bit of variety compared to the other plan for sure, up to you but I think it might suit you better.

MisterJinx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120643992#Comment_120643992

Hi Meca,

I did the same last year, I had a club session that I incorporated into the plan. You will just need to make sure that the is adequate rest or easy running either side of the session. If you are tweaking the plan then you can share it here and one of us will take a look and make sure there is nothing seriously wrong with the changes.

LSR is your easy pace or slower if you like. The purpose is to build endurance so it should be a pace where you can easily hold a full conversation while running. Your legs should be tired but you shouldn't be out of breath.

I just plugged in a 25 minute 5k into the race pace tool and when you click on the training paces header you'll see training paces. Look at the column 1000m to see the paces you would be running per Km i.e. somewhere between 7 minutes per km and 7:50 per km ! (This is an example and not specifically your training times)

My own personal rule of thumb on this one is that you should be running at 60 to 90 seconds per minute slower on your easy or long run than you would expect to run on Marathon day. This makes sense if you think about it as you wouldn't run your easy or long training runs at your marathon pace, you'd expect to be going significantly slower than that pace to get you used to the distance (building endurance or recovering from hard efforts). We use the sessions in the boards plan to work on the marathon speed, but they are over shorter distances.

Ged139

Just keeping you all up to date I done the Newry half marathon this morning in very warm conditions. I was hoping for somewhere between 2-2.10 but ended up coming in at 2.16.25 happy enough as the warm conditions were tough and not a bad time for my first half marathon.

IMG-20230528-WA0008.jpg

MisterJinx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120650590#Comment_120650590

Massive congrats @Ged139 what a super achievement, first HM done and hopefully many more to come 👏

The heat is a factor alright so well done on managing your effort in difficult conditions.

Hope you got a good rest for the remainder of the day. Take it nice and easy now for the next few days, let the body recover from the hard effort

Kellygirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120650590#Comment_120650590

Well done @Ged139. Great job. Delighted you are happy with that. I always find it much harder to run in the heat or more so humidity and it’s sensible to pull back. Nice to have that done before starting into the marathon training

kevinfkennedy

Good stuff .. I will .. Thanks for that

Kellygirl

The countdown is on!

MisterJinx

Hope everyone is enjoying the fab weather 😎🌞 If you were out running at the weekend you probably experienced how hard it can be when adjusting to running in the warm weather and it looks like we're going to have this for the next few weeks!

Also I'd expect many of you are going to be going on holidays during the marathon training block and probably heading somewhere warm so below are some warm weather tips to help you get through it.

1. Keep hydrated - this applies not just to your runs but before and afterwards. Taking a big drink just before your run isn't going to hydrate you and for me also leads to a lot of sloshing around in the stomach. Having a bottle with you throughout the day and taking small sips regularly is the best approach I find
2. Replacing salt and electrolytes - we loose a lot of essential salts and electrolytes when we sweat. You might start to notice on your longer runs in the warm weather that you get salt deposits on your face or arms. To replace this you can get an electrolyte sports drink or tablets which you can pop into your water bottle and help with rehydration
3. On your run you should also be looking to have some water with you or access to water. For short runs you shouldn't need any however as you start to go longer you will most likely want to have it available. You can simply bring a water bottle with you or a good recommendation other boardies have used is the soft water flasks from decathlon, they can be re-used and fold up very small when empty, you can even get a belt to carry them in! I freeze mine so when I'm out I've cold water towards the end of the run. There are loads of other options for carrying water like hydration packs. If you don't want to carry anything then you can always stash some water in a place you'll be passing and take a drink each time you go by.
4. Sun cream - apply it especially to the back of your neck and chest - sun burn isn't fun
5. Have a think about your clothing options - I mentioned before that for this weather I wear a running singlet, now I'd to buy and return a few until I found what I liked but they do help me to keep from overheating. Look for sweat wicking fabrics, cotton isn't great as it doesn't wick the sweat away and is a bit warm. I also found some shorts which work for me as they have a bicycle short type insert (called 2in1's); for me these help in inner thigh chaffing
6. A hat or buff can be great for keeping the sun off your head but you can also wet them to help keep you cool
7. Some money or a card to stop in the shop and get a drink if you run out
8. Finally, pull the pace back a bit. We're really not used to these conditions, for us here in Ireland anything over 20 degrees is extreme! You wouldn't expect to be able to perform to your max in extreme conditions so ease back the effort, go slower, take a walk break to cool down, it's not going to harm your training

Louis 2018

Hi All - thanks for the invite, some really good info in here so far and looking forward to shared experiences etc. :)

In keeping with tradition, here we go:

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)

Yes, but not full marathon

Half marathon - March 21 - 1:51:48

5km - October 21 - 21:24

10km - April 20 - 49:47

5mile - July 19 - 37:22

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? (No problem if you do)

No

How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.

Currently 3/4 runs per week - 1 being a weekend long run which is currently at 12km -averaging 23km-30km per week since end of April. Also incorporate squash once per week and 1 x light weights session with interval running e.g. 10x400m at sub 5min/km pace with 1 min break in between.

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?

I've gone from getting around the course to possibly a 4h-4:15h finish time to sub-4h finish time lol. I'm guessing my progress in training will tell a lot and open to advice, criticism etc.

How many days a week can you train? And what plan do you intend to follow?

Can train as much as I want and need to. I had been recommended Hal Higdon Novice 2 or Dublin Marathon advanced by a friend who completed numerous marathons. I like the look of Hal Higdon as long runs are Sat mornings, not sure if I like the idea of no hill/speed work in programme or how I can incorporate it?. Pretty sure his programme would have me running 32km on the day of Dublin half which I am signed up for and would like to run for some familiarity.

What is your biggest worry/fear/doubt (if you have any!) in signing up?

Not getting around on the day is a big worry, once I have the training done and stay injury free I'm guessing that will take care of itself. Injuries are another thing, issues with IT band in the past which made me fall out of love with running for a while. Also, not very familiar with the whole mix of speed, hill runs etc. and when to incorporate.

Why are you running this marathon?

It seems like as good a time as any. I don't drink, don't smoke and pretty much have a very healthy diet so I would think training wise that's a good start. Tried to get in with previous lotteries when at peak running but no luck so finally got in.

MisterJinx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120686707#Comment_120686707

Hi Louis 2018, great to have you join us and I think you've found the right place to get to through to your first marathon. Like some others here you seem to have a nice balance between the running and some other activities including some weight training which will all benefit you as we go through the training plan. I do note that your times are all from a few years ago so again I would recommend that you look to get some races in over the next couple of months. If you were planning to do the Dublin HM in the Phoenix park then you could also look at some of the other distances in the series including the Frank Duffy 10 mile and 10K, there are also some shorter races in the near future. These will help in terms of giving a good baseline to your current fitness level.

For the plans, there are 2 available, hopefully if you clicked the links in the very first post you will have been able to see and download them. There is the HH Novice 1 and the Boards Novices plan, Both of these plans have the 10K, 10 mile and Half Marathon backed into the training so you actually don't need to adjust anything training wise if you were to use either of those plans. You have of course noticed the the HH plan doesn't have any speed or hill work involved however if you look at the boards plan you will see that it has those incorporated into the plan so there is no thinking on your part required, just follow the plan.

What I would say though is that you mention that the HH appeals as the long run is on a Saturday rather than the Sunday. What you will find is that most people either pick a Saturday or Sunday for their long run using either (or any) plan and then just shift everything around by 1 day on the overall plan i.e. long run Saturday and then rest / recovery on Sunday or Long run Sunday and rest / recovery on Monday. It's perfectly fine to do this as we all have different home routines and the long run is a big commitment and you need it to work into your lifestyle be that Saturday or Sunday.

Also as you have raised your IT bands (which have caused me to loose most of April to injury) then this is something you should be looking to address now rather than deep into marathon training, if you been to a physio are you following the exercises? If not are you incorporating some foam rolling, massage or specific strength work into your routine to help keep you injury free?

Seesee

i just managed to cross the finish line of the vhi wmm at the weekend. Every single muscle is tight as hell as I had a niggle a month ago and just kept running! So I’m taking some time off, got a massage, stretching, using massage gun and doing some swimming and walking. I’ll try some exercises next week and maybe a gentle run. It’s not looking good for Dunshaughlin 10k next weekend.

MisterJinx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120693318#Comment_120693318

Hey Seesee, well done, what an achievement, bravo :-)

Sounds like you put a really strong effort in but don't worry, the body will recover, it's amazing what it can do :-) The light exercise you have talked about it perfect, the walking and swimming in particular will help easy everything out and get you moving again without a doubt. Did you enjoy the experience, how did you find it overall?

Seesee

Oh no it wasn’t an achievement. I meant I just about made it. Last year it was my PB under 54 something so this year was a total disaster. I shouldn’t have run sore tbh. Lesson learned. I wasn’t so much disappointed in the race as upset about how long the recovery is going to take and how it’s going to impact upcoming races and DCM plans.

Louis 2018

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120688134#Comment_120688134

Hi MisterJinx

Thanks for your detailed response :)

I've been looking at the races you mentioned plus others near me so definitely will enter some of those.

I have also looked at and downloaded the plans from the very first post, if I were to choose the HH N1 plan and want to incorporate some of the speed/hill work is there certain days that are best (assuming I follow the plan 100%) to do this and if so would these sessions replace the run or be in addition to the run e.g. in week 16 it says 3m easy so would it be 3mi + hill/speed. The Boards plan seems a bit more geared towards experienced runners but noticed that it includes a run and alternative session on some days. I'm a but undecided on the programmes.

Also noticed that the programmes are in miles, I train in km's so is it just a case of using the table to convert from mi to km or should I round up or down? e.g. 3 mile = 4.8km so should I round up to 5km?

Re IT bands, yes my foamroller is my best friend at the moment and will continue to be. I have some exercises which I follow in addition to the foam rolling so trying to keep that one at bay and hopefully it works!

Really appreciate the replies, I know these are probably very basic questions but I'm hoping to get as much info and relevant info as I can prior to starting the programme. The internet, like with everything has a huge amount of information and sometimes you take in too much!

Cheers

MisterJinx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120694445#Comment_120694445

Ah Ok I get you now. Definitely if you are injured rather than just sore then you need to tackle it. Do what you can yourself and if it's not getting better then look to get some medical advise or a Physio to look at you. Certainly if it's a case that you are injured or even really off par then don't do the 10K, it won't do you any good, it's better to get whatever is wrong fixed now so that you can get into the training plan and keep on it rather than being more injured in a few weeks time.

skyblue46

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120695305#Comment_120695305

Hi there. Good to have you on Board. For a first marathon attempt I would avoid the temptation to throw hills and speed work into the mix. Leave that until you have a marathon done and are looking to improve in your next one. For now I'd be looking to build a good solid base that will allow you complete a marathon whilst at the same time avoiding the injury risks that come with hills and speed work.

I would think the Boards plan would probably be more up your street than HH1 to be honest.

As for distances, of course rounding is fine. It's also ok not to be anal about distances and if you have local loops/routes that are close enough in distance to what the plan asks for then just use them. You have plenty of time in the future to embrace your inner OCD and finish your runs with laps of the garden to hit the exact distance on a plan!

Louis 2018

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120695456#Comment_120695456

Hi skyblue46

Thanks for getting in touch.

Interesting on the hillruns etc, thanks for the advice. I suppose the fear I had with just "running" throughout the programme and not adding in some speed or hill work would mean that it would be very 1 dimensional (maybe the wrong phrase) and there would be no speed in the legs if I wanted to push at any stage etc.?

You mentioned to avoid the temptation of hills and speed work but also mentioned the boards plan (which has these sessions) is more suited to me than HH1? Sorry hope that does not come across the wrong way, I just want to clarify :) I was actually recommended HH 2 by a friend but not so sure

As for rounding I thought as much but when it is your first you want to ask all of these questions and and not do myself out of (or add) a few km each week!!!

It's a while since I ran a race, however I think based on my age, no drinking or smoking & good diet that I could possibly train well and run a circa. 4 hour marathon. It's hard not to think of times although I know the most important thing is getting over the finish line!

Cheers

Kellygirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120695493#Comment_120695493

The hills and speed work are fairly minimal and a gentle enough introduction though in the Boards plan. It’s a tried and tested plan for a good few years now and does work. The sessions in the Boards plan are mainly marathon pace sessions, with strides here and there to give the legs a bit of zip.

MisterJinx

I'd echo what Kellygirl has just said. There are different definitions to speed and hill work.

A speed session could look like 400m intervals at faster than 5k pace and hill seasons can be anything from 1m to 1 mile uphill at 5k pace. Those are tough seasons.

The speed work and hill work in the boards plan are strides, marathon pace and 20 second hill repeats. They are still speed and hill sessions but very much paired back to suit a marathon plan.

You mentioned the km's as well, just use the table to convert and then the if also a section to put in a pace to get a rough idea of how long it would take at a given pace.

Just for reference I used the boards plan last year to a sub 4 as did a few others in the novices group. You'd be surprised how just following a structured plan with some good distance per week will improve your overall speed without having to do typical 5k type speed work.

kevinfkennedy

• Have you raced before? 5k, 10k, Half Marathon, Half Ironman
• If so what are your PBs? 5k 22min (2020) 10k 50min 2021 Half Marathon 2022 1h50min
• Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? (No problem if you do) No unless I'm struggling with calf issues which is allot.
• How much training do you currently do ? Gym x1 Hot Yoga x1 Spin x1 Runx1
• What do you want to achieve? I would kill just to complete a Marathon at this point. Goal/Dream 4hrs .. reality : 4:30 if injury free.
• How many days a week can you train? And what plan do you intend to follow? I'm am going to commit fully to plan 2 above. Currently doing build up runs three times a week. 3k..5k..7k
• What is your biggest worry/fear/doubt (if you have any!) in signing up? I'm have a desperate amount of trouble with calf injuries, strains, pulls and just all round calf pain over the last year so my biggest worry is missing out on a big block of training through injury and not being ready.
• Why are you running this marathon? I It's a life goal before 40 and I love running.

skyblue46

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120695493#Comment_120695493

I get where you are coming from but can assure you that the Boards plan is more than adequate for you to achieve your goals. Marathon running is a massive endurance challenge and improving the aerobic capability is king when it comes to training. More experienced runners who have built a big aerobic engine can then supplement their training with speed and strength work. We'd love to have you onboard and following one of the plans. Best of luck whatever you choose to do.

MisterJinx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120702725#Comment_120702725

Great stuff Kevin, the very best with the Calf, I feel your pain, keep up with all the exercises and S&C you've been prescribed and even book yourself in for some prehab with the physio so they can keep on top of it as you go along, don't wait until it's an issue.

Dublinlad1989

Good luck to everyone taking part in the Mentored Novice Thread, i completed it last year and found it a fantastic resource of help and guidance!

The mentors you have are brilliant and want to wish everyone the very best of luck in your training. See you at the start line in October :)

MiniMonstera

Hi all, checking in and hope everyone is well. I seem to never get time to post. The kids have so much on in the last month of school before the summer break!

I did my highest mileage last week (60km/37mi), as there were two long runs (not planned, just kind of happened due to the Bank holiday). Yesterday I did half marathon distance on a different and more on-road route. I usually run in the evening and in the exact same location but I went out at 7am, straight from bed. I forgot to have a drink. (I made up an electrolyte drink but forgot to sip some or take it with me!). Unfortunate then that it turned out to be the warmest, muggiest (thankfully not sunniest) morning year to date. Humidity was 92%. At the half way point I passed a shop thankfully and guzzled a small drink. And I fuelled with some sour patch kid jellies now and then. Overall it was a lovely easy paced run but tough at moments and a bit stressful, particularly the last 4km, mainly due to the heat. A lesson or 2 were learned. That was my third half marathon distance, so I'm delighted. Will take it easy now as I'm doing the Corkagh 5 mile this weekend.

It took me a good two weeks to recover from the leixlip 5k. Honestly I was so fatigued, for days. One of the things I did that was silly in retrospect was do a cool down run at too fast a pace. I was cooling down with faster runners and should have really fell away and slowed down. So I think my body, after the all out 5k, was like WTF are you doing!?!?! Again, another lesson learned. I have a feeling my first marathon is going to be paved in lessons 😅😅

mm