Why I'll say no to a united ireland

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122131833#Comment_122131833

The GFA spells it out multiple times:

It is 'for the people of the island of Ireland….'

If he is saying he is not from Ireland he should contact his government first.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122131833#Comment_122131833

Hang on a minute with your first sentence. The whole point of the GFA was not that someone from N.I. can identify as Irish or British or both or neither, because they were doing that anyway - were not all people in N.I. entitled to an Irish passport if they so wanted? The main point of the GFA in a lot of peoples minds was that it stopped the terrorism / got the terrorists to surrender their arms / semtex / get them put beyond use, plus a few other things like removing articles 2 and 3 of our constitution here in the Republic, which some perceived as a claim over N.I.

As noted before, some Republicans here insisting the Northern Irish are "Irish" is a bit like the people from USA insisting the Canadians are "Americans" or call themselves "Americans". The Canadians generally do not want to call themselves Americans, even though they are from the continent of America.

If I go to the Cliffs of Moher and bump in to someone who tells me they are "An American", I'll assume they are from the USA. They could be from Hawaii, a few thousand miles from the continent of America, but they will be from the USA.

If I bump in to someone from Canada, they will tell me that. - that they are Canadian.

Like another poster, I don't understand why some people (invariably insecure Republicans) are forcing, or trying to force, " those in northern Ireland to 'admit to being irish' just because they were born in the island."

It would be like people from the USA forcing or trying to get Canadians to call themselves Americans. Generally Canadians are proud not to call themselves Americans.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132016#Comment_122132016

Nobody is forcing anyone.
downcow's government signed an international agreement wherein 'we' (you, me, downcow, blanch, miniegg, peregrinus etc etc) are clearly defined as 'the people of the island of Ireland'.
What is the term for the people of an island called Ireland = the Irish (some of whom identify as British or Irish or nothing at all, as is their right)

That last bit will not change in a UI either and shouldn't IMO and I don't see anyone wanting to change it either.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122131764#Comment_122131764

I see people born on this island as geographically British, because they are born on the British Isles.

Northern Ireland isn't in Ireland, it is separate to Ireland, which only consists of 26 counties.

Unionists are at home on this island, in their British identity, as part of the British Isles.

Edit: The above is to reflect the stupidity of the attempt to force Irish identity on people.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132384#Comment_122132384

Fair play to you. I won't try to tell you you are wrong, as you did me.

Northern Ireland is in Ireland, it is not in the Irish state. What a silly comment. It is not in Britain, which is across the Irish sea. It is in the UK.

Unionists are at home in this island, I completely agree. And I hope the will have a home here if a UI ever happens.

It is you who is showing stupidity, I have never questioned the British identity. Do you think Paisley etc al thought his idendity was Irish when he said:

 I am an Irishman because you cannot be an Ulsterman without being an Irishman.

There was nobody more vehemently against ROI than he, or who could have any more professed their British idendity.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132384#Comment_122132384

"Ireland, which only consists of 26 counties."

I always presumed Ireland consisted of 32 counties split into 4 provinces Ulster, Leinster, Munster and Connacht.

Enlighten me:

How many counties are in Ulster?

A. 6

B. 9

C. 6 but there used to be 9 or

D. Ulster doesn't exist anymore

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132466#Comment_122132466

You have failed to take into consideration the GFA.

As part of the GFA, the constitutional claim was removed from our constitution, and we have accepted that Ireland now consists of only 26 counties. If the other 6 counties on the island ever decide they wish to join us, we will consider that, but they are not part of us now.

It is legitimate to aspire to unite the country, I aspire to win the Euromillions, but aspirations are not reality. Ireland is 26 counties now, and we voted for this.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132541#Comment_122132541

… and you have failed to answer the question.

I did make it easy for you by making it multiple choice.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132466#Comment_122132466

That is where insecure republicans get confused. The name of the island is Ireland. In a step of logic only some the "southern" Irish (for want of a better name) could come up with, they then go and name the 26 county state "Ireland" too. Quote: "Article 4 of the Constitution of Ireland, adopted in 1937, provides that "[t]he name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland". Hence, the Irish state has two official names, Éire (in Irish) and Ireland (in English)."

In another twist, if an insecure Republican hears an Englishman calling the state Eire, he or she ( the insecure Republican ) may get offended. Only in Ireland.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132604#Comment_122132604

Go on Francis have a go!

A, B , C or D ?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132604#Comment_122132604

It;s not entirely unreasonable. Unless the Englishman is in the habit of speaking of España, Deutschland, Suomi and Italia, you have to feel that by choosing to avoid "Ireland" he is — or thinks he is — Making A Point.

Ironically, the point is the opposite of the one Downcow and yourself would wish an Englishman to make. The Englishman avoids "Ireland" because (a) he considers (correctly) that "Ireland" embraces 32 counties, and he assumes (incorrectly) that "Éire" refers only to 26 counties.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132604#Comment_122132604

Is saying Eire derogatory? I've never heard anyone actually use it in conversation. Why so?

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132604#Comment_122132604

"Only in Ireland" ?

There are "insecure republicans" in Ukraine as well Francis.

They claim that 100% of Ukraine is Ukranian whereas as of today only about 82% of Ukraine is Ukraine. The other 18% is actually now Russia and obviously everyone who lives there (Crimea,  Luhansk Oblast,  Donetsk Oblast,  Zaporizhzhia Oblast and Kherson Oblast) is most definitely not Ukranian???

Even more confusing is the "fact" that citizens in Chernihiv (according to your logic) were Ukranian until Feb 2022 then Russian but then became Ukranian again in April 2022.

For what it's worth I'm of the opinion that people on this island can identify as whatever they want as long as they are respectful of the traditions and opinions of their fellow islanders.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132412#Comment_122132412

You are 100% right here.
It is not me, an Ulsterman born and bred who has to do the pirouetting headstaggers to pretend it is not in and a part of Ireland. That circus act is performed by some modern Unionists and partitionists.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132541#Comment_122132541

and we have accepted that Ireland now consists of only 26 counties.

This is a fabulous deceit.

'We' did no such thing.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133104#Comment_122133104

"Article 4 of the Constitution of Ireland, adopted in 1937, provides that "[t]he name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland"

Please note the above. It is not the state plus N.I. which is politically "Ireland" or "Eire", it is just the state.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133383#Comment_122133383

But Francis it's not that simple.

Article 134 of the constitution of Ukraine states that "The Autonomous Republic of Crimea is an inseparable constituent part of Ukraine" Source: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ukraine%2C_2004#Chapter_IX:_Territorial_Structure_of_Ukraine

and yet it's occupied by Russia!

So to you does that mean Crimea is Ukrainian or Russian?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133504#Comment_122133504

Under the G.F.A., You cannot use the old fashioned 'RA language that N.Ireland (or the 6 counties or whatever you want to call it) is "occupied". If you want to set up a separate thread on the Russian invasion / "occupation" of Ukraine go right ahead, do not derail this thread.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133551#Comment_122133551

You're the one who claimed that this confusion was "only in Ireland"

All over the world there are disputed territories where individuals may claim nationalities that may differ from their neighbours.

It's not as black and white as you'd like to think hence the reason why you can't or won't answer the multiple choice question I posted earlier and can't / won't answer the questions about Ukraine.

If you are too blinkered to want to understand the other side, what's the point in trying to debate or discuss issues?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133551#Comment_122133551

Well now, I think if you are allowing ‘language’ that has Ulster not a part of Ireland, it’s anything goes really.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133586#Comment_122133586

Ulster is part of the Island of Ireland. Only 3 counties of Ulster are in the state of Ireland. As noted before, in a step of logic only some the "southern" Irish (for want of a better name) could come up with, they then go and name the 26 county state "Ireland" too. Quote: "Article 4 of the Constitution of Ireland, adopted in 1937, provides that "the name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland". Hence, the Irish state has two official names, Éire (in Irish) and Ireland (in English)."

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133615#Comment_122133615

Can you tell me why an English person saying Eire is derogatory? Genuinely curious, you mentioned it a while back. Why do people have an issue with it

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133615#Comment_122133615

Ulster is in Ireland Francis.
If downcow has issue with where he lives or you have, take it up with the respective governments who signed an international agreement which referred to ‘us all’ as, ‘the people of the island of Ireland’. If the island is Ireland the people are ‘the Irish’ some of whom choose to have British or Irish identities. They can change those identities anytime they want.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133693#Comment_122133693

What I wrote was "In another twist, if an insecure Republican hears an Englishman calling the state Eire, he or she ( the insecure Republican ) may get offended." You tell me why, I do not get offended no matter what they call it.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133721#Comment_122133721

I live in the Republic of Ireland, which is on the island of Ireland. Downcow lives in N. Ireland, which is part of the UK but also on the island of Ireland. He or she does not live in the Irish state, Quote: "Article 4 of the Constitution of Ireland, adopted in 1937, provides that "[t]he name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland". Hence, the Irish state has two official names, Éire (in Irish) and Ireland (in English)."

People born and living south of the border tend to have Irish PPS numbers, and are part of the Irish sysyem. People born and living in N.I. have UK taxation and social security numbers and identification, they are residents of the UK although they can of course identify as Irish if they so wish.

Same as Canadians are part of the continent of America but are not really "Americans" in the common use of the word.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133993#Comment_122133993

I have no idea, I never heard an English person call Ireland Eire personally

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134022#Comment_122134022

 He or she does not live in the Irish state,

Now comes the pivot.

Nobody, absolutely nobody on this thread claimed he lived in the state of Ireland.

He was born and lives in Ireland, along with all the other 'people of the island of Ireland', which contains 'Ulster' in it's entirety too.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134033#Comment_122134033

Occasionally you will hear a British person snootily refer to it as Éire. They think they aren't using the name Ireland and are unaware that it is just the name in Irish.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133721#Comment_122133721

Lots of islands have more then one country on them, Ireland is no different to many other islands around the world. Would you force people from Haiti to.be Dominican republican?

Also, in relation to this.earlier

What is the term for the people of an island called Ireland = the Irish

But that's not the term for everybody born in the island of Ireland. there are Poles, Nigerians, Ukrainians etc etc all born in the island of Ireland, do you call them all irish?

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133993#Comment_122133993

Embarrassing.

Why throw out a statement if you've no experience, evidence or opinion on it?