Why I'll say no to a united ireland

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122127645#Comment_122127645

Others on here who live in Ireland are more qualified to answer this than me, but it is my understanding that you are completely wrong. I understand the country you live is called Ireland and the country I live in is called Northern Ireland. And hence you are Irish and I am northern Irish. Northern Ireland is part of the UK making me British, and Ireland is not, ensuring that you are not British.
So since you had completely the wrong starting point, may I suggest a few things:

1. Check out the actual name of your country
2. If it turns out to be Ireland, then accept that you live in Ireland and I do not
3. Rethink, you’re forcing of me to be Irish
4. if all of the above are true, then rise above some other posters on here, and come back on and post a correction

downcow

I don’t believe I ever said that you calling me Irish was a slur. I accept completely what you say in your last post about your motives. Some other on here who know I am not Irish are definitely goading, I do not believe this is the case with you.
Not only do you want everyone born on this island to be Irish, it seems you actually believe this is the case. I am simply attempting to demonstrate how I think it is important for you to know that one huge blockage to reconciliation is the arrogance of people living in eire, to continue to try to claim Northern Ireland, and to try to tell us, that athough born in the UK, and British, that we are also Irish.

Peregrinus

"Country" is not a particularly helpful term, since it can refer to pretty much any stretch of land - the Black Country, Yeats country, Hardy country, the West Country, the high country, even Marlboro country (for those of us old enough to remember that).

"Country" has to be distinguished from "state", an area subject to a particular political administration. A state can be a sovereign state, like France or Russia, or a subdivision of a sovereign state, like Tasmania or Indiana. A state, arguably, is a particular kind of country, but it's not the only kind of country. Ireland, Germany, Italy — all were countries, and spoken of as countries, long before there was an independent, unified Irish, German or Italian state. And a state can cease to exist but the country can continue - Poland, for example, from 1815 to 1920, or Scotland after 1707. Countries are identified by geographic or cultural characteristics; not simply by political status.

Ireland is a country, and has been spoken of as a country, for centuries — for longer than England has, in fact. The country of Ireland includes the whole island, and Northern Ireland is so named precisely because of a recognition that it is part of a larger country called Ireland.

Ireland is also the name of a state, and the state of Ireland embraces some, but not all, of the country of Ireland.

Political boundaries are malleable and somewhat arbitrary. It's not uncommon for a state to be named after a country even when it includes only part of that country (or, when it includes more than that country). The state named Luxembourg, for example, contains only a small part of the country of Luxembourg, the area inhabited by Luxembourgers where Luxembourgish is spoken. The state called Samoa embraces only part of Samoan country; the rest is administered as a US territory under the name of American Samoa. Much of the country of Macedonia lies in the state of Greece.. The state of Italy was so called even when it did not enclude the Veneto (around Venice) and Lazio (around Rome). Etc, etc.

So, yeah: there is a country called Ireland; Northern Ireland is part of it. There is a state called Ireland; Northern Ireland is not part of it. Where disambiguation is required, descriptors like "the island of Ireland" or "the Republic of Ireland" can be employed. But usually which sense is intended is evident from context.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122128378#Comment_122128378

I agree with almost all you say but I think you are overplaying the term country to mean more than it commonly does. In normal conversation e.g. the United States and Canada are both referred to as countries, but I think you’re telling us they are now both in the same country? That to me is a strange use of the term country.
Of course we can refer to the black country, Even the Mourne country close to me, but that is very different than confusing an island like Ireland by calling it a country.
Am I correct you are also suggesting that the island of Cyprus is one country? Or Korea for that matter. It really is quite an odd approach. I assume you are stretching it to try to again and claim me somehow as Irish?

The one point I absolutely disagree with you on is your suggestion that there is a country called Ireland that contains 32 counties - that is what you’re saying isn’t it? And if someone asked you how many counties are in the country called Ireland, you would say 32 - absurd!

Give me your honest opinion on this issue about living in or on an island. In normal every day speech would you say I live in achill Island or on achil Island? In Arran Island or on Arran Island. Or indeed, I will be taking my caravan into Rathlin Island or onto Rathlin Island?

If we can be honest with each other about this, then I will have no issue whatsoever saying that I live on Ireland - but I definitely do not live in it

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122128290#Comment_122128290

Sorry, Peregrinus is right but I wasn't being that cerebral - there is no country of Ireland mentioned in any of my posts, I should have clarified. I know what my country is called, but I always differentiated by calling it ROI, (indicating it is not all of Ireland) and when referring to Ireland spoke of the island - I said that at least a dozen times. I wasn't trying to trick you into saying Down was in ROI, I said the opposite of that in all my posts.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122128444#Comment_122128444

I do not believe you were trying to trick me. The problem is that Republicans can attempt to manipulate the situation and purposely confuse.
If your country was called the Republic of Ireland or something else other than Ireland, then it would make life a lot easier and remove any sensitivities to the term, Ireland, for me anyhow. It would even have made having joint sports teams much more palatable.
I don’t see Ireland changing the name of their country – the very fact you and periguins feel the need to use descriptor terms, demonstrates that Ireland is not the smartest name for the 26 counties. That’s something I love about Northern Ireland is that it requires no descriptors attached, in that it is crystal clear that it does not contain the whole island of Ireland.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122128503#Comment_122128503

No, but it is not crystal clear and confusing in that at it does not contain all of northern Ireland either, so someone in Donegal could think you are trying to claim them with that name. I guess none of the names are perfect.

downcow

Periguins doesn’t really need to answer my last post now as you have done it so eloquently for him. You are being very clear that your ‘country’ is the 26 counties. Hopefully this will allow people to dispense with the acrobatics of trying to suggest a country can be made up of several states

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122128510#Comment_122128510

oh absolutely, I get that - and almost included it in my post.
I guess what I am saying is that at least it causes people to realise there is two jurisdictions on the island and, yes, they may have to do a little research to see exactly where the boundary lies.
This is the problem for Republicans when they use the term ‘the north’ or ‘the north of Ireland’, a visitor would have no way of finding out where exactly where they are talking about and would assume it to include Donegal - I guess if they used a capital N then that may help, but that might upset them as well.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122128512#Comment_122128512

Everybody has their own opinion, I can't or wouldn't speak for Peregrinus, only giving mine

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122128429#Comment_122128429

I wouildn't call the US and Canada one country, myself, IMO; they are two countries, but they also contain other countries. Similarly we can talk about Korea as a country, or Cyprus as a country. We can, for instance, talk about the division of Korea. What is being divided there? A country. What makes Korea a country? Koreans; history; Korean culture; the Korean language; Korean shared experience.

Ireland has been widely referred to as a country for centuries; it's bizarre to be in denial about this, or to try to pretend that it is somehow confusing. This has nothing to do with whether there is one, more than one or less than one state on the island. Countries precede states, and they generally survive them too.

Bottom line: "country" is a pretty flexible term. It's hard to deny that pretty much any stretch of, well, country that it characterised by occupation by a particular people, by common geographical features, by shared history or shared culture or share experience can be a "country". Denying this risks making someone appear as though they're trying to distort the English language in pursuit of an ideological agenda.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122128545#Comment_122128545

I find it absurd that you are suggesting I am distorting the English language.

Your accusation led me to check exactly who is distorting the English language.

I checked a number of dictionary definitions and everyone agrees 100% with me and 0% with you.
You can google them yourself, but here is the kids dictionary version to simplify it even more:

”A country is land that is controlled by a single government. Countries are also called nations, states, or nation-states. Countries can be large or small. Australia, Brazil, Canada, China, Russia, and the United States are large countries spread over millions of square miles. The world’s smallest country, Vatican City, covers less than 1 square mile.”

https://kids.britannica.com/kids/article/country/391002

I think you may be in danger of being perceived as disingenuous and blinded by prejudice, if you cannot accept the dictionary definitions

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122128775#Comment_122128775

I find it absurd that you are suggesting I am distorting the English language.

Trying to claim you are not of Ireland, when you were born and lived here is the distortion. Claiming that babies are born with a nationality is a gross distortion.

You were born, others assumed your 'identity' based on who your parents are and once you reach an age you can decide to change that identity or keep it and that is how it is.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122128775#Comment_122128775

I disagree. As a university lecturer of mine used to tell us "Grammarians don't define concepts".

Dictionaries often don't give the full breadth of the concepts they purport to define and copy each other's mistakes, e.g. Webster's ahistorical definition of 'republic' (which is convenient to American local sensibilities) which then gets repeated by other dictionaries.

Historically, the definition of 'nation' was not so rigidly defined around changing of state boundaries.

Look at e.g. the separate Northern Israelite and Southern Israelite kingdoms which existed at one point in antiquity: it doesn't stop someone today from referring to "ancient Israel" as one place, knowing what came before and after. Political boundaries can chop and change around a historic country.

I think that you are the one who is being disingenuous simply because there is no reason, other than political advantage for Unionism, to deny the obvious historical continuity - between the historic nation of Ireland and the two political Irelands (both of which have 'Ireland' in their name).

When it suited short-term economic advantage, the Irishness of Irish grass-fed beef was held in counter-distinction to British beef (affected reputationally by fear of contamination) by the late Ian Paisley.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122128545#Comment_122128545

You have put it very well, and it is similar to what I'm saying, but I wouldn't use the word "country" to define it, which seems to have a lot of modern connotations in my mind at least.

I'm not sure what is the best term is, so I described Ireland as its own entity, which it is, through it's history in and out of the B. empire. Whether there were 50 kingdoms here, or one, or how many waves of diverse people landed here and were friendly or killing each other, they became Irish by default of them being of here. It is it's own place distinct from Great Britain and from Europe, with currently a part under British admin and part under ROI. It doesn't really matter about politics or nationality or idendity, it is beyond all that.

Although if would piss alot of people off, I would agree completely if Unionism fought to reclaim Irishness for themselves, than say being Irish doesn't exist alongside their Britishness. For one thing they would have the weight of history behind them and only ideologues could deny that.

In this situation we have, republicans get to keep and define an Irishness that transcends them all and their arbitrary metrics, and that is not right.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122128775#Comment_122128775

And I find it absurd that you would post a definition from a child's dictionary that is so grossly oversimplified that it excludes uses of the word which you yourself have already acknowledged — e.g. Mourne country; our wee country.

If you want dictionaries, let's look at the Oxford English — the full version, not the Shorter or the Concise.

Country:

The land of a person's birth, citizenship, residence, etc.; one's homeland.

Land, terrain, or a region of undefined extent, esp. considered with regard to its physical characteristics. 

A particular tract or expanse of land; a region.

The areas away from towns, cities, and conurbations; the rural areas, the countryside.

An area of land of defined extent characterized by its human occupants or boundaries

A district or administrative region, typically one smaller than a nation or state (but contrast the "territory of a nation" sense below)

(In Ireland and Scotland) the territory of a clan

The region associated with a particular person, or his or her works.

The territory of a nation; a region constituting an independent state, or a region, province, etc., which was once independent.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122128895#Comment_122128895

you say, “You were born, others assumed your 'identity' based on who your parents are and once you reach an age you can decide to change that identity or keep it and that is how it is.”

So when I am of age, you will allow me to change the identity that others have assumed for me 🤣🤣🤣🤣

That’s an awful lot of identities I will have to apply to change. Just on this thread alone there are at least 4 assigned to me.
This is the sort of stuff you expect to read in comic books

downcow

I don’t think you realise how arrogant you are being. Suggesting we should reclaim irishness. I can hardly believe I am reading this stuff.
why don’t you reclaim your Britishness.
I am proudly northern Irish. If you don’t like that or you think your brand of irishness is superior, well I can’t do much about that.
this sounds as desperate as the need some republicans have for the ni people to want to be part of their country.
I continually feel like OWC is a beautiful young 102 year-old girl and this 1,000 year-old man (Eire) is stalking us and demanding we marry him - and now he’s upset we won’t take on his name even while he continues to stalk.
Go find another country to marry. Try France, it’s pretty close.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122129948#Comment_122129948

As usual I think you are just willfully misunderstanding what is being said in order to not address what is being said. Whatever.

People are changing identities, because you 'choose' an identity. You don't come out of the womb with a Union Jack or Tricolour stamp.

From the last few census's
• In Census 2021, 814,600 people (42.8%) living here identified solely or along
with other national identities as ‘British’. This is down from 876,600 people
(48.4%) in 2011.
• In Census 2021, 634,600 people (33.3%) living here identified solely or along
with other national identities as ‘Irish’. This is up from 513,400 people (28.4%)
in 2011.
• In Census 2021, 598,800 people (31.5%) living here identified solely or along
with other national identities as ‘Northern Irish’. This is up from 533,100 people
(29.4%) in 2011.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122129993#Comment_122129993

I am not sure where are you are referring to as ‘here’?

That aside, it seems you are now arguing that the people born on the island of Ireland are not Irish - they can be anything they like.

Tell me if I am misunderstanding you. My confusion is that I thought you have been saying all along that people born on the island of Ireland are born with a shamrock sticking out of their ****

I honestly believe if I said the sky was green, you would say it was pink.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122129530#Comment_122129530

If we look up definitions of country, you will find
"a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory." (Oxford dictionary)

"an area of land that is controlled by its own government nation" (Britannica)

"a political state or nation or its territory" (merriam-webster)

"A country is a nation, a body of land with one government." (vocabulary.com)

So if someone is from Ireland (the country of Ireland) they are from the "26 counties" or whatever you want to call it.

I am pretty sure if you were overseas and addressed a letter or postcard to some address in "Ireland" it would get to the 26 county state. If you sent it to Northern Ireland it would get to an address in Northern Ireland.

Of course all this confusion and insecurity on the part of Republicans could have been avoided if people referred to Southern Ireland or Rep. of ireland or Eire ( much as I hate that word) or whatever you want to call the 26 counties, rather than calling the 26 counties after the whole geographical island.

The Republicans here insisting the Northern Irish are "Irish" is a bit like the people from USA insisting the Canadians call themselves "Americans". The Canadians generally do not want to call themselves Americans, even though they are from the continent of America.

Most Northerners do not want to call themselves simply "Irish" even though they are from the island of Ireland. They were after all born in the UK and live in the UK, not in the country of Ireland. They are proud to be Northern Irish or British ( short for United Kingdomers). Fair enough. People from the Isle of Man or Jersey, if they were in Timbuctwo and asked what nationality they were, would say "British" or "from the UK" too.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122130105#Comment_122130105

Someone born in Ireland is Irish. 'Here' is Ireland, Belfast is in Ireland as is Castlewellan and Monaghan and Dublin

You have the right and can choose to identify as you wish. But nobody can do that as a new born baby. It is assumed you have the same identity as your parents.

If you were born British or Irish and were left on the side of the road, how would anyone know what you were? Is there a way of telling? A mark? 😁

You are not born British or Irish, you are just born.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122130132#Comment_122130132

a classic post from you francie 😳

you say:

“Someone born in Ireland is Irish. 'Here' is Ireland, Belfast is in Ireland as is Castlewellan and Monaghan and Dublin”

Firstly, you are telling porkies. ‘Here’, in your post, had a population of less than 2 million - try to be more honest, even when you are caught with your pants down

You say:
“You have the right and can choose to identifyas you wish. But nobody can do that as a new born baby. It is assumed you have the same identity as your parents”

Well, in my case, that is British, so your last sentence makes zero sense

You say:
If you were born British or Irish and were left on the side of the road, how would anyone know what you were? Is there a way of telling? A mark? 😁

They would obviously check how far your eyes were apart.

You say:
“You are not born British or Irish, you are just born.”

Just look back at you first sentence in same post, at the top of this post 🤣🤣

downcow

francie at his best.
first and last sentences 😀😂🤣

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122129985#Comment_122129985

How do say in one post you understand me, and explain it to me pretty much how I meant it, and then in another flip flop back and tell me I am trying to take your nationality. Are you one person or multiple

Your analogy of NI is like making the same 1,000 yr old man dress up in little girls clothes, not my idea of beauty?

NI is not new you told us, you were the Irish in the union for hundreds of years and as you said nothing changed for you, the south broke away. How could that possibly have stopped you being Irish, that is what you always were.

Anyway, I have made my points and given this far too much effort. You are tieing yourself up in knots of contradictions that don't add up, or reverting back to making up that I am saying things I'm not when you clearly understood what I was saying .

You can call yourself whatever you want, but it's absolutely historically factual and not a slur to call you Irish and see that you have a place in Ireland like everyone else, British or not.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122130354#Comment_122130354

Maybe it is too complicated for you to understand?

If you are born in Ireland you are of Ireland or Irish.

'You' don't decide that, geography decides that.

You said you 'were born British' on an island that is called Ireland.
It is utterly fantastically head-staggering logic you are using.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122130347#Comment_122130347

Well, in my case, that is British, so your last sentence makes zero sense

And you are telling us you decided that moments after birth? Laughable stuff now.

Your identity (British) was chosen for you, and you just happen to agree with that choice. Others don't and change their identities.

You can choose your identity you cannot change the country of birth's name to Britain, just because you want it to match your identity.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122130443#Comment_122130443

if it is important to you and gives you some sense of security, then call me whatever you wish.
I never lived in Ireland within the UK. I have only lived in a Northern Ireland within the UK.
So you make my argument for me, if my forefathers were Irish because they lived in an Ireland within the UK then I am northern Irish because I live in a northern Ireland within the UK. I think you know it’s that simple, but you will not let go of your Irish tag for me.

downcow

This is exactly what you said:

“You are not born British or Irish, you are just
born.”

I do not agree with you, but you cannot make a statement like this and then in the next breath tell me that I am born Irish.

downcow

You are all over the place, francie. You told me:

“You have the right and can choose to identifyas you wish. But nobody can do that as a new born baby. It is assumed you have the same identity as your parent”

I was simply pointing out that using your rationale, it was assumed I was born British.