Why I'll say no to a united ireland

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187567#Comment_122187567

You are saying here that because a paramilitary group did something wrong that it is ok for the British government to do something wrong.
You are in the same moral boat as downcow and Francis- apologists for state sponsored violence.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187600#Comment_122187600

For the love of God, I am saying there is wrong on all sides.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187611#Comment_122187611

Nobody is disputing that except downcow and francis who refuse to accept that the government who had the power to avoid the sectarian statelet going up in flames bears the primary blame. They tried by taking a side to shore up that statelet and exacerbated the conflict. They knew it was a sectarian governed statelet and did nothing to end that until they removed the Unionist veto in the AIA. Then things began to change. There was no reason it coukd not have been done at partition or at anytime after.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187648#Comment_122187648

You disputed it, here it is yet again:

“Appalling, holding the state to the same standards as a paramilitary group.”

There was wrong, evasion, lies, whitewashing, whatever else you want to call it, on all sides.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187665#Comment_122187665

And by a government who you are saying is the same as a paramilitary group and coukd therefore behave like one. Utterly appalling stance

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187676#Comment_122187676

There you go again, deflecting..

I am saying all sides commited atrocities, engaged in lies and cover ups.

mehico

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187699#Comment_122187699

Most people would acknowledge this but there has been a signifcant problem in creating an agreed method of dealing with the legacy of the conflict.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187721#Comment_122187721

I agree with you, it will take more time to pass, and more contrition on all sides before we can put the legacy behind us. Until then, leave things the way they are, the cost is not worth the grief of parties who still blame each other and won’t forgive. We have housing problems, education problems, healthcare problems, infrastructure, pension etc, the last thing we need is a drain on our finances to try and keep the population of 6 counties happy.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187748#Comment_122187748

'Contrition'?

You do realise your government is suing the British government because they are once again trying to avoid the legacy and responsibility for what it and its forces did here?

leave things the way they are,

Only the most socially selfish would advocate abandoning Irish people to being bullied into submission again by an uncaring British government. It's not going to happen. In my experience this 'call' to leave things alone in the south usually comes from inveterate partitionists or allies of Unionism.

mehico

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187748#Comment_122187748

It is possible to deal with the legacy of the conflict while also pursuing constitutional change/maintaining the status quo.

Preparing for potential future unity does not mean ignoring current issues either.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188323#Comment_122188323

There was plenty of collusion between Irish security forces and the IRA, as proven in the Smithwick enquiry.

The Irish government is still dragging its heels on investigating other cases of IRA collusion - for example in the case of Sproule, a young innocent Protestant from Co. Tyrone murdered because the Gardai gave the IRA information that he had loyalist para-military connections. The IRA killed him with something like 42 bullets, then phoned his father up and told him to have a look at the mess they left him in his yard. Later on the IRA showed the Garda file to a newspaper in Derry, as justification for their murder. He was not a para-military. There has not been a Garda investigation or enquiry, even though Irish politicians have met with Sproules relatives over the years and promised to have one. More white-washing / cover-up.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-50627175

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/garda-ombudsman-declines-to-investigate-alleged-ira-garda-murder-3382992

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northern-ireland/like-talking-to-a-wall-family-of-ira-victim-criticise-irish-state-over-response-to-gardai-collusion-claims-KUCA4ALYJZD27KF42YVMK5K3EU/

https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2024/0526/1451203-ian-sproule/

FrancieBrady, re your last point, you could also say only the "most socially selfish would advocate abandoning non-Irish Republican people to being bullied into submission again by an uncaring Irish government". For the 70 years after independence the Protestant % of the population south of the border greatly decreased, while the Catholic % of the population north of the border increased. What does that tell you? Where was there more discrimination? 3000 out of 7000 places in the RUC were reserved for Catholics. 18% of the UDR were Catholic. There were virtually no Protestant Gardai.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122181620#Comment_122181620

Except he was also a spy for the British over 30 years, sabotaging the PIRA from the inside, sidelining the hardliners when he could, and duping the rest into a ceasefire. No wonder the Queen shook McGuinness' hand.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188425#Comment_122188425

Quite something for any decent person to swallow considering what the IRA did while this man was allegedly aspy for 30 years.

Imagine having a spy at the top of an organisation (I'm sure you are one who alleges most of the top were spies/informers) and allowing that organisation do to your people what they did, up to and including almost taking out your PM.

Disgusting morally for a government that pretends to care, ineffably stupid acceptance by a Unionism that offers undying loyalty to these people.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188425#Comment_122188425

Whatever his other quirks, can you back up your allegation that Martin McG was a spy? Other than a few allegations and the fact that paper never refused ink when it comes to selling a few newspapers?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188457#Comment_122188457

Do you remember film footage emerged recently from the early seventies, and McGuinness was filmed by an American film crew loading a bomb in to a car : the same car with the same reg later exploded in Derry. The British M16 and their best buddies in NATO, the American security services, ensured the film was buried, and only resurfaced decades later (recently). Why do you think the British authorities never imprisoned him?

McGuinness was also filmed showing children bullets / ammunition. Remember that?

The British being honourable of course did not act outside the law and target him and other Republican leaders either.

Has the penny dropped yet with you? Not even when another informer says he once saw McGuinness coming out of another security services "safe house" in Co. Derry?

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188323#Comment_122188323

Or, people who are happy to maintain the status quo, I can hold that opinion without being a supporter of unionism or partition, both of which I am indifferent to..

Yes contrition, because there was wrong on all sides. The fact you are so entrenched in your opposition to that reaffirms the fact that we are not ready to absorb, nor pay for these problems into our State.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188689#Comment_122188689

Entrenched?

I have agreed with you several times that there was wrong on all sides.

You are taking exception to what is normal in any conflict resolution process and attempts at reconciliation.

Look to what caused the conflict firstly and to who had the power to address the causes and the responsibility to address them.
Now, in your opinion who had the prime responsibility for how somewhere (a supposed democracy) functions? A paramilitary organisation, a religious grouping or the government of the place?

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188764#Comment_122188764

Again, not for the first time, you are missing the point.

My consideration when voting will first and foremost be the costs of unification. My second consideration will be, at the moment there are a million unhappy nationalists who the UK’s problem, if unification occurs, we will have a million unhappy unionists who will become our problem.

Like many I suspect (and I say this never, ever having heard either people my own age, and in particular, my children’s age ever express a strong opinion either way apart from saying the paras are all as bad as each other) I am indifferent to what happens up there.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188902#Comment_122188902

Oh I do love these claims to being 'indifferent'.

If you were indifferent you would not be here.

Perhaps think of another word.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188934#Comment_122188934

A person who is indifferent would, I think, usually if not always condemn the para-militaries on both sides. And rightfully so. Nothing wrong with being indifferent.

Most people in these islands condemn the para-militaries during the troubles on both sides : the pIRA, the INLA etc on one side, and the loyalist paramilitaries like UVF, Shankhill butchers, etc on the other side.

You, FrancieBrady, have yet to condemn the Republican para-militaries. Like Adams, you are not in to the politics of condemnation (unless it is of the British or loyalists of course). You are against violence ( but you do not consider pIRA activity / attacks "violence" - they were military action etc according to you ).

Again I ask you: what do you think of the IRA coldly blowing up Mountbatten's boat when they could see a young innocent teenage boy and other civilians on it?  Still proud about that?

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188934#Comment_122188934

Because I am not indifferent to the costs, or effect on our society, was that not obvious?

It’s worth remembering what the title of the thread is Francie,

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189304#Comment_122189304

I am indifferent to what happens up there.

Your words, not mine.
Who exactly is indifferent to the costs?

What I see here are people who are indifferent to any costs or projections that are manageable or that represent an investment in a better society for all of us.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188457#Comment_122188457

The evidence is out there, if you open your eyes.

To stop the PIRA, it took him 30 years, slowly sidelining the hardliners, slowly duping the likes of Adams into accepting a ceasefire. It was morally dubious because of the people that the PIRA killed, but hundreds of thousands could have been saved as a result of McGuinness nobbling the PIRA.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187551#Comment_122187551

you make a fairly serious accusation against me:

”The only people who I see excusing murders during the troubles are Downcow and FrancisMcm. Their reasons for defending BA murders are numerous, intelligent and diverse:”

could you back it up with a qupte from a post where I have defended a single murder committed by a British soldier or anyone else?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187551#Comment_122187551

well this is just stupid:

The British armies job was not to murder it's own people. I have no idea about Aidan Mcinespie, but Ballymurphy is an example of the violent British army regiment sent to a civilian neighborhood of British citizens, and given free reign to murder people going about their lives.

firstly why do you know about ballymurphy and not know about Aidan McA - people on here are claiming he was murdered, a quick google will educate you that a judge has ruled otherwise.
now to suggest that a heavily armed crack unit of the BA were a “violent British army regiment sent to a civilian neighborhood of British citizens, and given free reign to murder people going about their lives”, and numbers in the low teens died, is absurd.
what happened was tragic but you need to rethink your description of that day

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188323#Comment_122188323

at the same time as your government is refuse an enquiry into Omagh, because it may embarrass them!

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189320#Comment_122189320

In the hope of providing clarity, let me say this as simply as possible for you.

I really don’t care about the people who live in the 6 counties, once the border was removed and people could travel freely between North and South, along with the peace which now exists there, I don’t see any good reason for me to vote yes in any referendum. In fact, I can see more compelling reasons to vote No, avoiding the cost of unification, and the disaffected Unionists who would then become part of this State against there will.

I am indifferent to what happens in NI, I am not indifferent to the effects which unification will cause. We have enough problems of our own without voting to add more, and paying for the privilege. I don’t know anyone who has ever expressed a strong positive opinion on NI unification, but I am sure they will want to know the cost, both the financial and security costs.

They are my words, I’m not sure I can make that any clearer for you.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189376#Comment_122189376

The main issue with McAnespie is not that the soldier was found guilty of manslaughter but the cover-up and evasion and lies that were told about it by your 'honourable government and it's security forces'.

The same thing they have done in a litany of other cases.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189433#Comment_122189433

I really don’t care about the people who live in the 6 counties, 

Ok, Got you.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189407#Comment_122189407

No, that is a fabrication and a simple mis-representation:

On Wednesday, following the publication of the terms of reference of the UK inquiry, Tánaiste (Irish deputy prime minister) Micheal Martin said the Irish government would be "fully co-operative" with the UK inquiry but said he did not think a separate Irish government inquiry made sense.

"I think two separate inquiries doesn't make sense because it would be clear overlap and duplication and crossing each other," he said. "But we have mechanisms and we've changed the law a number of occasions to facilitate the information the Republic may have in respect of certain crimes."

The Irish government's forces did not carry out Omagh either. In respect of actions carried out by British Security forces we have a litany of cases where your honourable government has had to be dragged kicking and screaming to tell the truth and are still being dragged in a litany of others to tell the truth.
Even your own politicians are up in arms at their attempts to end the search for truth.