Why I'll say no to a united ireland

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134063#Comment_122134063

I am not forcing anyone to do anything.

All I am giving is my opinion and how I see it. downcow or people like him can call themselves whatever they want. But don't be telling me Ulster is not in Ireland. Nonsense tbh.

This island is called Ireland, if you were born here or live here then you were born and live in Ireland.

The offspring of Poles and Nigerians would be referred to as the offspring of Irish people who went to the US are (Irish Americans), 1st or 2nd generation Polish-Irish, or Nigerian-Irish.
The place of their birth is included, unashamedly and without the petty denial and bitterness.

Juran

I read recently that the unemployment rate for NI is approx 3%. I must have met most of those 3% when I was up there shopping at various malls and commercial centers last year during midweek. All I kept thinking, they have great shopping for home goods, furniture, rugs, etc .. but no way are we taking on this lot. We have enough of them down south as it is.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122131627#Comment_122131627

exactly

downcow

Grand Lodge of Ireland is absolutely fine. It is the ground Lodge of the island of Ireland. Loads of organisations organise themselves on an all island basis, that does not mean that their members are Irish.

downcow

Note the huge discrepancy with what is being argued. a huge difference in saying people of the right to clam or become Irish as opposed to people are born Irish. I am assuming your Post is supporting those of us who say that you are not born Irish just because you’re born on the island?

downcow

nonsense. Northern Ireland is not in Ireland. Northern Ireland is on the island of Ireland.
As for Paisley, I completely support his right to claim himself as Irish. That would be a minority position within the unionist community, but we are known for being a very diverse community and it is absolutely fine for him to celebrate his Irishness. But please don’t be so ridiculous as to suggest that because Ian Paisley said it then we are all Irish.
Jerry Adams is an IRA supporter, does that mean everyone born in West Belfast is an IRA supporter. You really are being silly.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122131833#Comment_122131833

That is a much better post and I agree with almost all of it.

I do realise reading this thread that it seems most people who are Irish in Northern Ireland feel they have made that choice. Can I say that I don’t know a single British person in Northern Ireland who would tell you they made a choice or have any concept of making a choice. we just know we are British. There is no dilemma nor decision. There is no, ‘ which passport will I get’. We just are British and we don’t even give it the slightest thought when it’s time to get a passport.

One recent Brexit Development is that know some people do now make a decision to get a second passport, that is simply a pass e.g. like the free bus pass, that may give access to areas that our real passport won’t..

so I think we are probably trying to compare things from very different starting points again

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132941#Comment_122132941

those pesky Englishmen are all the same and all believe the same thing 😳🤣

downcow

If we’re gonna play silly multiple-choice, here’s one for you:

Malin Head is the most northerly point on the island of Ireland, but where is it?

A: in Northern Ireland

B: in the North of Ireland

C: In a southern county

D: In the South

try really hard to be honest with your answers

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133721#Comment_122133721

of course I was born on the island of Ireland and I’m part of the people who live on the island of Ireland.
You are again making my argument for me. That quote is very clear. Why do you think it says the people of the island of Ireland and not the people of Ireland? Remember Jerry and Martie agreed to these words.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134254#Comment_122134254

😂. Last time I got off the train at Connolly station, I thought the same as you. Only difference was, we don’t have many of those up north. My shock was how many you have down south

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122135290#Comment_122135290

I don’t know a single British person in Northern Ireland who would tell you they made a choice or have any concept of making a choice. we just know we are British.

This is just fantasy to be honest. Your community never stop telling the world you are British. The ‘fleg’ debacle being a prime example.
Flying it as noemal British people do isn’t good enough.

P.S. I see you are on the pivot too. Nobody is claiming NI is in the Irish state.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122135290#Comment_122135290

Sartre would point out that the decision not to make a choice, or even the refusal to make a choice, is itself a choice. If you could choose an Irish identity but don't, then you're choosing not to have an Irish identity, and that's a choice.

I take your point that you don't experience yourself as making a choice to be British; you've just always felt British. That's entirely normal; your fellow-denizens of NI who are Irish feel exactly the same way. The truth is that, when it comes to identity, none of us start out as a blank slate which we fill in by making an explicit choice. We inherit our identies from our family and community, and later on we choose to affirm them or to alter them. The choice may be implicit rather than explicit, but it's still a choice.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122135501#Comment_122135501

We inherit our identies from our family and community, 

It beats the 'I was born British' claim.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122135501#Comment_122135501

Well, I understand the point you’re making. Your point is that everything in life is a choice. I understand that, but I’m more inclined to believe that nothing in life is a choice, and we are a product of our environment. But that’s a much deeper discussion and not really related.
What I will accept is that people in Belfast who are British or people in Dublin who are Irish probably follow the same procedure choice/inevitability/whatever.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122135615#Comment_122135615

And do you also accept that that is equally true for people in Belfast who are Irish and people in Dublin who are British?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122135566#Comment_122135566

sometimes there seems no point in these discussions, but then out of the blue we find that Francie is slowly but surely getting educated.

this above Post is a positive change from his post a few pages ago “Someone born in Ireland is Irish”

at last he is accepting that people in Ireland are not necessarily born Irish 👏

downcow

Absolutely agree with you

I would even go further and say that it is much more likely that someone born in Belfast will take on an Irish identity, than somebody born in Dublin will take on a British identity - I don’t think the person born in Dublin is entitled to a British nationality whereas the person born in Belfast is entitled to an Irish nationality.
I completely and absolutely Support the right of people born and reared in Belfast to be Irish. I think it is great that they can be, and I think it was a sensible move of the Irish government to allow allow them to be Irish. I don’t think my government has anything to do with it, but I stand to be corrected.
There was for a while a few nations also gifted Brazilian footballers nationality, who actually had zero connection to their country. So it is entirely up to Ireland who they allow to be a citizen. Fair play to them for their generosity - even I can have it if I want it 😀.
It’s a wee bit trickier for one of you guys in the south to get one of these beauties 😇

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122135631#Comment_122135631

Downcow, we have established that everyone, including your government defines us as 'the people of the island of Ireland'.
Who are the people of the islands of Jamaica? Cyprus? Australia?

The Jamaicans, The Cypriots and the Australians who may identify in many different ways.

Who are the 'people of the island of Ireland' = The Irish, who may identify as other.

My statement holds fully true to that.
Nobody is born 'Irish' or 'British', see Peregrinus excellent post on this. If you are born 'in' somewhere then you are of that place, in your case and mine that is in Ireland.
You are free to choose an identity of your own at any point in your life when you can decide for yourself. If somebody was born British or Irish, then that would never change.

As I said, you go to anywhere outside the country, tell people where you and I where born and they will describe both of us as Irish (two of the 'people of the island of Ireland') you have to tell them you identify as British, I don't need to do anything.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122135667#Comment_122135667

That would be the, 'beauty' that is below the Irish passport in the Henley passport index?

As someone who is entitled to a British passport should I ever choose to do so, I'd love to know why exactly anyone in Dublin should be upset they can't have one?

The two states were in union for an awfully long time, as we've found out post-Brexit when UK citizens were flocking to get Irish passports, it isn't so difficult to find a grandparent in the other jurisdiction.....if Ireland had taken leave of it's senses, I'm sure there would've been a comparable rush of Dubs to get a British passport in fairness.

Juran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122135337#Comment_122135337

Do you want them ? We can sent them up to you guys. Plenty of buses available these days as the irish government have hired loads of buses for our 'asylum seeker' illegal economic migrants. Honestly, they will be of great benefit to the north, as they seem to be of highly regarded by the irish state the way they are treated like mini royalty with best of houses for free, weekly payments for doing nothing & other welfare benefits, medical cards, etc. The good news is that they are A+++ energy rated due to Canada Goose coats, so great for NI environment.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122135692#Comment_122135692

you have a fancyful idea of Ireland being the centre of the universe and everyone being fixated on us and having views and opinions about us. 99.9% of the people of the world couldn’t care less whether Francie is Irish or British. Few people in the world have any idea who whether the island of Ireland is part of the UK or not. There are endless studies to demonstrate this e.g. The Global State of Democracy Report 2022:

"Knowledge and engagement in democratic processes are often confined to local and regional contexts, with less focus on distant political boundaries. This suggests that many individuals, may not have detailed knowledge about the political specifics of faraway countries."

You really do need to come to grips with how insignificant little this British archipelago in the northern hemisphere is to the 6 billion people who live on our planet - and how little they know about it.

as for your statements. This is exactly what you said, “Someone born in Ireland is Irish”, and I think it is really positive that you have used this forum to educate yourself and have now shifted your position. Full marks for, I think for the first time, demonstrating your ability to change – that is a great strength. Keep it up. 👏

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122135757#Comment_122135757

Nice pivot again.
I was referencing those who do have an interest. Of course you knew that but need a hook.

You are Irish, by virtue of geography, not because you came out of the womb with a tricolour stamped on your bum.
Which is what 'I was born British' means. You came out of the womb in a place downcow and that place will always be Ireland, not Britain. You are and will always be what your goverment sees you as: one of the people of the island of Ireland.

Peregrinus

We probably need to draw a distinction between citizenship, the legal status, and nationality, the community/cultural identification. The two often overlap, sometimes closely, but they are distinct. We can see this easily when we consider that, before 1922, there was no such think as any kind of Irish citizenship, and yet there was a definite community of Irish people, recognised not only by themselves but by others. And this isn’t a uniquely Irish thing — something similar could be said about, e.g., Germans, Italians, Poles. Even the British — there wasn’t a British state before 1707, but the concept of Britain and of British people was already centuries old at that point.

Britain affords other examples, because of its history as a colonizer. When India became independent in 1947 and Indian citizenship was established, there was a distinct community that considered themselves British but who didn’t have, and weren’t granted at the time, British citizenship. A similar issue arose as recently as the handover of Hong Kong in 1997 — a small community of ethnically British people, who had however been settled in Hong Kong (or, at any rate, outside the UK) for too many generations to qualify for UK citizenship.

But in general the UK, like other countries, tries to align citizenship with national identity to the extent that they can. That’s the reason why countries confer citizenship on children born abroad to expatriate parents — someone born in, e.g,, Dubai to British parents inherits his national identity and culture from his family — they’re British; they regard themselves as British; they are regarded as British by other British people. And UK law gives them UK citizenship, because of a desire to align legal status with the national/cultural reality.

So, to come back to your point, there’s a fair chance that someone born in Dublin who identifies as British is entitled to a UK passport, because the reason they identify as British is highly likely to be recent descent from British people who are, or were, UK citizens. But if, because of the interaction of UK citizenship law (which is insanely complicated) and the details of their family tree, they are not entitled to a UK passport, that doesn’t necessarily invalidate or undermine their national/cultural identification as British.

Fun fact: “British subject” used to be the legal status that united everyone born in what were fondly termed the King’s dominions; there were hundreds of millions of British subjects around the world. It has been replaced over time with a slew of different citizenships of different states (including UK citizenship) and now the only people who qualify for British Subject status are people who have an ancestral connection with a British or formerly British territory, but who don’t qualify for the citizenship of any Commonwealth country. There’s only a small cohort of British subjects left — nobody has counted them, but it’s reckoned to be in the low tens of thousands. They are all in the mid-70s or older; the great bulk of them are Irish citizens; many of them are unaware that they are British subjects; when the last of them dies the status will be completely extinct.

The status is practically useless, because it doesn’t confer a right of abode in the UK (or indeed in any other country). Most British subjects do, in fact have a right of abode in the UK as Irish citizens or on some other basis, but they don’t have it by virtue simply of being British subjects. (It’s ironic that the rights of Irish citizens in the UK are more extensive than the rights of British subjects, but so it is.) But the UK still maintains the status largely to affirm the national/cultural identity of the members of this group who consider themselves British.

It’s this citizenship/national identity distinction that enable the UK, one the one hand, to declare that denizens of NI are British, or Irish, as they may choose and, on the other hand, to confer UK citizenship on everyone born in NI regardless of whether they choose it or not, and charge them £450 and make them wait 6 months to renounce it.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122135692#Comment_122135692

And the logical inference for your concluding sentence is that if you go to anywhere outside the country, say to Asia or wherever, and tell people where you were born as "the British Isles" ( which it is, geographically ) and they will describe you as British. A lot of people in the world do not even know Ireland is a different country. Some people have not even heard of Ireland but they have probably heard of the UK / Britain, and may know of football there or whatever.

How many Irish people would think that Bali is independent of Indonesia? Or Tasmania independent of Australia?

droidman123

Why would anyone from ireland say they are from the british isles?? I never heard anyone from ireland say that.even my government doesnt recognise that term.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122135710#Comment_122135710

Wrong, having a grandparent from the UK jurisdiction does not automatically entitle someone born and living in the R of I to a British passport. If you were born outside the UK or a qualifying territory and have a parent who is a British citizen by birth, descent, registration, or naturalization in the UK, you may be eligible for a British passport. A grandparent would not cut it.

Not like the Irish government who stretched the rules a bit, like during the Jack Charlton era so players in UK who had an Irish grannie were Irish. Even in 2011 Up to 11500 people have tried to use the "Granny Rule" to claim Irish citizenship that year.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30488175.html

droidman123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122136088#Comment_122136088

"Not like the Irish government who stretched the rules a bit, like during the Jack Charlton era so players in UK who had an Irish grannie were Irish. Even in 2011 Up to 11500 people have tried to use the "Granny Rule" to claim Irish citizenship that year."

Was that not a f.i.f.a rule?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122135667#Comment_122135667

I certainly agree with your last sentence Downcow, " it’s a wee bit trickier for one of you guys in the south to get one of these beauties". Nail on the head there and a very good reason I would recommend you to vote to stay part of the UK. You have a choice of whichever passport you want. I and the vast majority of people born south of the border do not.

If there was a U.I., before you know it your offspring or grandchildren and their children will be having to get a Pas/ passport (half in Irish), with no choice in the matter. Before you know it some of your descendants may be going to a primary school where 10% of the time is religious indoctrination (90% of the primary schools in the state have the catholic church as patrons and hours are spent every week on religion during the school day ), or they may look up to the Irish ladies soccer team (pity they were caught chanting Uh Ah Up the Ra after a match), or they may even go to a school where only the Republican side is taught (not just in history, but i know of teachers who have made snide comments about the British in English class, Geography etc).

All part of the thread title, "Why I'll say no to a united ireland". At least in the UK, as you are now, you have a choice.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122136088#Comment_122136088

Because the UK rules are as they are, countries that have different rules are "stretching the rules"? The UK rules are the standard against which all other rules are measured?

Truly, the spirit of imperialism is not yet dead!