Why I'll say no to a united ireland

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122101217#Comment_122101217

You forget that we're not talking about something that happened hundreds of years ago, Downcow. Some folk on here have direct, lived experience of Britain, 'throwing their weight around' (what an interesting way to refer to murder).

The former colonies of all of those major world powers also largely engaged in violent revolt when they had enough of them, 'throwing their weight around'.

Also deeply ironic that you would say, 'let go of it and take some responsibility and ownership of your way forward. It’s an awful long time ago now and time to move on' when barely a day passes when you talk about something the PIRA did in the same timeframe I'm referring to. Maybe you could take a bit of your own advice?

I don't think you'd be terribly impressed if I described what you have described happening in Castlewellan as the local population, 'throwing their weight around' either.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122101386#Comment_122101386

He doesn’t understand we have moved on from it and built a modern inclusive society .
We were able to move on because we understand why the British did what they did and why it engendered s violent revolt.
If in a UI we do the same to minorities violence will inevitably be the result.
There won’t be gerrymandered constituencies nor will anyone be deprived of their vote or rights.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122101236#Comment_122101236

You work in extremes - good & bad, black & white, and you rarely answer questions. The big bad brits and the wee innocent Irish. Life’s not that simple.

But I do answer questions, so to deal with your question:

“Are you in denial that Britain subjugated and oppressed the people”

No I am not in denial - it happened the world over. Could you point me to a government anywhere in the world that did not happen.

Did they “shore-up that statelet” - since 1921 they defended the will of they people (not always in appropriate acceptable manner). This has became simpler since 1998 when the ROI government and the IRA etc have accepted the will of the people. It took a while for the penny to drop, but in 1998 the western world accepted the right for OWC to exist and promised to honour self-determination - I can’t think of another country in the world who has an international agreement with this commitment.

“Does your government and community bear any responsibility at all?” Of course uk got lots wrong, but at least they tried to respect the will of the people. ROI and elements in the US worked against the will of the people - that inevitably created major issues and stimulated violence on all sides. If there had been a GFA in 1921, and honoured by all parties, life would have been so different. It shouldn’t have taken ROI and republicans 77 years to accept NIs right to exist and right to self determination. It is evident that their position created turmoil and conflict in those 77 years, transformed when their overt desire to subjugate and oppress was removed (GFA)

Couldn’t answer your question about “your commmunity” until you define what you mean by “your community” ???

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122102412#Comment_122102412

Rape happened and happens the world over, does that excuse it happening here?
Of course it doesn't.

If the 'will of the people' was to exterminate a minority, would that make it ok for the government of that people to carry it out?

Of course it wouldn't.

The 'will of the people'(I actually don't believe it was the will of all the people, not even all Unionists) as you call it was to subjugate the artificially created minority, to gerrymander them into constituencies, deprive some of them of a vote, and to change the system of voting to ensure one party would be in power. The British stood by and allowed this to happen, gave Unionists a Veto and when Civil Rights people objected they beat them off the streets and shot them dead.

The bolded part is the part you are in denial of and are again deflecting from and are now ludicriously trying to blame the Irish government and the US for.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122101449#Comment_122101449

are you for real????

Here’s just a few examples of the subjugation and oppression of your state since the big bad brits left the stage:

1. Economic Policies: Economic strategies led to unemployment and mass emigration, particularly in rural areas.
2. Censorship: Strict censorship laws restricted cultural expression and access to diverse ideas.
3. Catholic Influence: Strong Catholic influence shaped restrictive laws on divorce and contraception.
4. Mother and Baby Homes: where unmarried mothers were mistreated, and children often faced horrible conditions and forced adoptions.
5. Church Child Abuse Cover-Up: Eire provided tacit support for covering up mass child abuse, failing to intervene despite evidence of widespread abuse.
6. Housing and Economic Policies: Housing and economic policies created inequalities and worsened the impact of the 2008 financial crisis.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122102442#Comment_122102442

FFS, where have you been since the 80's?

2,3,and 4 have been faced up to by the people and has largely been dealt with.
Comparing 1, & 2 to what went on with the sectarian one party statlet is just bizarre and shows the depth of your denial

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122102412#Comment_122102412

I denounce the IRA killing people and setting bombs. But show me a country where this stuff doesn't happen, really it's just the way it is. And of course it was a long time ago so you should just get over it.

And look at NI, by many metrics it has gone downhill since the IRA stopped their campaign. So many scandals I can list, so you could say you were better off with the IRA around.

As I said I denounce violence but I knew people who served with in the IRA who were sound and never set a bomb, there will always a few bad apples. Overall they were a group of nice people I won't hear any different no matter how many they killed.

And really if they murdered anyone it was their fault because Brits didn't recognize a United Ireland. Also the republican community were against British rule so the IRA were only respecting that. They made a few mistakes, but they were ages ago so move on thanks.

Obviously nobody would be on here saying this, but this is exactly how ignorant and arrogant your posts read in the other direction Downcow. Offensive is a term that is too easily used, but your lack of insight and self reflection is genuinely offensive.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122102449#Comment_122102449

I wasn’t comparing anything. I was demonstrating that Roi government were also ‘subjugating and oppressing’ the people

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103379#Comment_122103379

....that would be a comparison, Downcow.

downcow

That’s exactly what many are saying.

And what changed for the Ira to stop their sectarian violence (that’s if you don’t accept reality that they were infiltrated and defeated)

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103387#Comment_122103387

it’s not a comparison with gerrymandering. It’s and entirely different form of oppression. The examples the world over are going to be very different. Anyhow I am still waiting for examples of governments who did not oppress people?

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103398#Comment_122103398

You said you weren't comparing anything, now you've downgraded to, 'well it wasn't a comparison with gerrymandering'. Just acknowledge the sh*te talk and move on, Downcow.

Now the sheer scale of horror the British have inflicted upon the world over the centuries can be hardwaved away with, 'sure wasn't everyone doing a bit of oppression'.

Most governments certainly have their flaws.....few have the amount of blood on their hands that the British do over the centuries.

You also avoided telling me how you'd feel if the experiences you've told us the Unionist community in Castlewellan had were dismissed as the locals just, 'throwing their weight around'?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103398#Comment_122103398

You cannot confront what happened in NI without pointing elsewhere.
That means IMO you cannot defend what happened.
And because you can’t you have to exaggerate your own victimhood in your head.

As Miniegg pointed out your exceptionalism is also reaching absurd levels.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103480#Comment_122103480

that is exactly what the locals were doing. I don’t see why you think that a bad description.

it was not a comparison it was just one example of ROI operation of people. If I give you examples from the American government, it will be very different but equally as oppressive, and likewise Russia, China, wherever. If you think there were countries that did not oppress people, then please give us a wee list. Otherwise accept that oppression happened across the world, and of course there were differing degrees and differing ways, but if you were a young girl in Ireland who had had a baby out of wedlock, I think you would say there wasn’t much greater oppression anywhere than what you sustained.

downcow

I am simply trying to get you to comprehend that not every problem in the world was due to the big bad Brits. Take some responsibility.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103618#Comment_122103618

You are one to talk about "exaggerating your own victimhood" when you think that N.I. catholics were MOPEs. ( Most Oppressed People Ever ). And you talk about the "sectarian one party state" oppressing your Republicans …are you referring again to how FF shot / executed some IRA in cold blood in an Irish prison as recently as the 1940s, without any outcry at all, the IRA had so little support then? Interesting point you make though that this state did treat minorities worse than any part of the UK …I suppose when you think of the abuses by the RCC and how close it was to the state….I suppose when you think of how many fled abroad….I suppose when you think how DeValera said if he had one job to give and two applicants, one catholic and one protestant, he would always give the job to the catholic (or words to that effect). Even also when you remember human rights like contraception, taken for granted in other parts of the world, but not here until well in to the 1980s.

Even today there are still the remains of 800 babies discovered in a septic tank in a mother and baby home in Tuam, Co. Galway, and these have still to be recovered. Much easier to brush them under the carpet and pretend it never happened, perhaps in case their siblings still alive look for answers or compensation. What a backward country we still are in some ways. And you think this sectarian one party ( FF/FG ) state should take over N.I. and all will be well? Pull the other one.

Nobody in the UK executed any IRA in prison ( which did happen here ). And at whose hands did people disappear? You cannot blame the UK for that.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122101019#Comment_122101019

FrancieBrady always talks in riddles and never answers questions.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103655#Comment_122103655

Ah so just good old fashioned whataboutery?

Other people did wrong at various points of history, so everything the Brits did was grand so.

Next time you're having a whinge about how tough things were in Castlewellan for the Protestant people, I'll just remind you that there were people killed in the Bologna Massacre in 1980, so apparently any complaints you have about the IRA are null and void, since terrorist attacks have occurred everywhere. Maybe you should just get over it? Not every problem was caused by the big bad Provos, take some responsibility.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122100148#Comment_122100148

During the troubles SF were not the most popular party on the island. It was only after extremist Republicans surrendered their weapons and got their semtex put beyond use that SF grew in popularity. Here south of the border during the troubles they usually got just of a few per cent of the vote maximum.

The RCC bishop of Derry knew his flock well enough to say the biggest enemy of the Irish people was the IRA. During the troubles SF was not even the biggest nationalist party, SDLP was, who rejected the IRA as Cardinal Daly did.

When I said it must be difficult for SF now, I was referring to immigration: SF leadership was pro-immigration but it turned out the ordinary voters of SF are very against immigration ( more so than other voters even according to some polls I saw) , so of course the leadership of SF has flip-floped again. Never though I would hear some shinners looking for a hard border on immigration.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103398#Comment_122103398

But sure lots of things happen world over. Why are you moaning about what happened and is happening to Unionists in your town? Get on with it, it is what it is. No point anyone learning to try to prevent it happening again. If it happens again so be it. Happens everywhere.

I'll remove my tongue from my cheek again. Your posts are appalling, and it's sad you fail to recognize the futility and nihilism of your arguments.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103661#Comment_122103661

I have taken responsibility, I have used my vote (something your ancestors made sure the minority never had, or if they did it was of no consequence) to give people their rights in every referendum we have had. I am not afraid (as you are) to confront the wrongs of the past.

No matter what Dublin, priests, The Americans, China etc did, it does not excuse what the British and Unionism conspired to do here.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103888#Comment_122103888

You are trying to make little out of the fact republicans have in the past 4 decades or so intimidated and "cleansed" unionists of out towns which were previously mixed, and are now majority nationalist. I think it is your posts which are appalling, not downcows.

It is another reason not to vote for a U.I., when you see what has happened in relatively recent decades.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103927#Comment_122103927

Clearly I'm not, you would want to brush up on your comprehension skills as usual...

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103939#Comment_122103939

You would be better off taking your history by looking at both sides, rather than just the pages of an Phoblocht.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103939#Comment_122103939

Their exceptionalism or a painful lack of historical knowledge now seems to extend to thinking that displacement was something only experienced by Unionists.
Downcow asked 'how could there be a UI if nationalists will not accept the displacement of Unionists.

Do these folk just forget Bombay Street, the pogroms of the 20's, women and children burnt out of their homes across the north, children burned to death in their beds over a 12th parade, housing discrimination to ensure Catholic voting power would never have an effect? My town has plenty of people intimidated and burnt out of their homes in the late 80's and early 70's/

It's also a feature of conflict/wars the world over that communities tend to group and move together to be safer.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103902#Comment_122103902

By "here" I assume you mean south of the border, which is where you live. You continue to blame the British even though they left "here" over a century ago. All the sex abuse scandals here, all the state discrimination in employment here in the 40s, 50s etc (the religious minority population here decreased, even though they the minority in N.I increased because at least there were some catholics employed in the army, police etc in N.I ), the execution by DeValera of IRA in the 1940s, the backward attitudes to contraception, divorce etc here for much of the 20th century, emmigration, the housing crisis etc….all the British and Unionists fault says you.

You really should take some responsibility, you post on behalf of SF every day attacking what "the British / Unionists conspired to do here" ( end of your quote) just shows how insecure you are.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122104065#Comment_122104065

Please address what the British and Unionists did post partition in NI that led to it going up in flames.

The wrongs of others does not excuse it.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122104024#Comment_122104024

Never read it, and no idea what it has to do with my post, I would suggest you read back up the page with the blinkers off.

Still, at least your copy and paste reply was one sentence this time, rather than the never ending sermons you usually subject us to.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103763#Comment_122103763

that would be a realistic starting point ie it’s rare to find those in power not oppressing the people. You’ll never find me denying the terrible things that were done against unionists, nationalists and those in Bologna.

downcow

It’s really interesting how much nationalists struggle when republican sectarianism is raised. I would never deny the disgusting sectarianism of loyalist paramilitaries like the uff. I call out their child abuse, bulling and sectarian killing. Seems many on here are unable to do that clearly about the PIRA.