Why I'll say no to a united ireland

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995108#Comment_121995108

I think people want one because they know it will produce a plan. They want to see what it might look like then they will decide.
Not even I would answer yes, if it was tomorrow. I want to see a plan first.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991922#Comment_121991922

the report has highlighted the huge financial issue that seems on surmountable. But the other thing that would have to be in a plan is a clear outline of what equality will look like and how the unionist/British community will be treated.

I actually think this is an even greater problem for any Roi government or Republican to solve. I have highlighted two very real examples on here of where the state and many many nationalist just are absolutely blind to any equalities - and therefore how can they produce a plan when their prejudice and bigotry does not even let them recognise problems that are stirring every sensible person in the face.

I have mentioned the IRFU as an excellent vehicle, in which nationalists could demonstrate, to the British community and Northern Ireland, goodwill and how they may be treated in an all-Ireland scenario, but all we get are constant denials that there is even an issue.

The problems in a future all Ireland would likely mirror what is happening in the GAA. The small British community would identify issues and those in authority would just continually deny that they are even issues.
The people we would require to stand up and address issues of equality in a new Ireland, are the same people who are currently telling us day and daily that the GAA is inclusive and there are no significant issues which are chill factors to the local British community. Until nationalists have the ability to recognise what equality is and Republicans stop using it as a Trojan horse then this is a much bigger issue than finances.
An excellent article today in the Belfast telegraph from someone who is a member of and loves the GAA, but does have the ability to recognise problems that do not exist in any other sport normal sport:

“'I love the GAA, but Blue Lights is honest about risks members face by joining PSNI'

Blue Lights co-creator Declan Lawn says he knows police officers who have had to step away from the GAA over fears of being “too exposed”.

Lawn, who coaches an under-13 hurling team, added the hit BBC1 police drama, which is set here, took an “honest and unflinching” approach to depicting the risks involved for GAA members who join the PSNI.

The series, created alongside Adam Patterson, stars Sian Brooke and Martin McCann.

Lawn said: “That's the reality. There are many, many Catholic, nationalist police officers who don't tell even their extended family what they do, and we know some of them.

“There's no doubt that it's still an issue, and Blue Lights tries to be honest about that.

“In terms of the GAA, I love the GAA, I'm part of it, but you have to be honest and unflinching about that... it's still a risk, for sure.”

In the first series, which was a critical and ratings success, one storyline centred on rookie officer Annie Conlon (Katherine Devlin), who keeps her new job a secret from her camogie team-mates, a situation that eventually sees her forced to leave her home.

Speaking on set during shooting for the second series, which hits TV screens next Monday, Lawn and Patterson said some of the early storylines were drawn from real life.

Lawn said: “I know people who drew back from their GAA careers because they thought it was too exposed.”

Patterson, who previously worked on Spotlight and Panorama, added officers in that situation were making an “amazing sacrifice for a job”.

“It's pretty phenomenal, and I think at times that people don't quite know the gravity of that sacrifice until they're in it: 'I'm going to have to give up these friends or this thing that I love doing'.

“The police force, like any institution, is not perfect, but you have got to say that people give up a lot to do what they do.”

Since the RUC was replaced by the PSNI, officers have continued to be targeted by dissident republicans.

In 2009 Stephen Carroll became for first PSNI officer to be murdered, shot dead in Craigavon.

In 2010 Paedar Heffron, captain of the force's GAA team, lost a leg in an under-car booby trap.

He had left his own GAA club in Co Antrim after joining the police due to the hostile reaction from some of its members.”

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995528#Comment_121995528

Comprehensive enforced equality legislation.

It will be illegal for any organisation - political, sporting or social to discriminate on the basis of religious, sexual or national identity.

People who attack the security forces, republican, loyalist or other, need to be treated equally too. Those who identify as British and those who identify as Irish

A complete separation of all churches and state.

Fionn1952

@FrancieBrady I see Leo Varadkar coming out with a few lines that you'd be absolutely castigated for on here.

Maybe he's stepping down because he's a closet Shinner and all.

https://twitter.com/dmcbfs/status/1777422917984256487?t=zTziQUyK7xzU94jPlRZlUg&s=19

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995737#Comment_121995737

I'll say one thing for Leo, he could always recognise momentum towards something and knew when to climb aboard.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995528#Comment_121995528

" I have mentioned the IRFU as an excellent vehicle, in which nationalists could demonstrate, to the British community and Northern Ireland, goodwill and how they may be treated in an all-Ireland scenario, but all we get are constant denials that there is even an issue."

You talked about this alot but I never got what you would settle at regarding equality in irish ruby side. If they had just one agreed song and one agreed flag ( which they do?) and the president of Ireland or any other representative of the irish state did not shake hands at internationals then that would be enough for equality? Have you written to the IRFU requesting this?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996609#Comment_121996609

A democratically agreeed UI solves the issues for 'national' teams and requires no compromises re anthems and representation of identities.
By that I mean, a UI will have an agreed anthem and flag and one team representing us in each sport.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993819#Comment_121993819

The National Socialists in Germany were the biggest party there too when Hitler came to power, even though they had only thirty something per cent of the vote.

Another similarity is the policy of both sets of National Socialists towards the media.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/23/sinn-feins-rising-tally-of-lawsuits-fuels-fears-it-is-trying-to-stifle-scrutiny

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995674#Comment_121995674

Ireland has had over 100 years for a complete separation of church and state and still Irish kids spend 10% of their time in primary school undergoing religious "instruction", 89% of primary schools in Ireland have Roman Catholic patronage, we still have the Angelus on RTE tv and radio, we are still waiting for 800 bodies of little kids buried secretly in the septic tank in a nuns mother and baby home 60 / 70 years ago or whatever to be recovered and buried properly, up until 2024 we still have all the airplanes at Dublin airport blessed annually by the Catholic priest there etc.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996495#Comment_121996495

His over-green stance lost the FG party votes. Varadkers name is dirt among many ex FG voters I know. Leo done FG a lot of damage, no surprise both he and that b***** Coveney are now going. Anyone but those 2, the worst FG politicians of all time.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121997580#Comment_121997580

And a UI represents the best chance we have ever had to remove churches and religiously motivated influence from both jurisdictions.
The south is miles ahead of the north in that respect. The days were the rights of people are blocked because it offends somebodies religious beliefs should be over and done with.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121997786#Comment_121997786

A U.I. ( in reality the Republic / nationalism taking over the whole island ) represents the best chance of separation of church and state????????????????????????????????????????????????

Tell us again, which state has had over 100 years for a complete separation of church and state and still Irish kids spend 10% of their time in primary school undergoing religious "instruction"?

Which state has 89% of primary schools Roman Catholic patronage?

Which state still has the Angelus on RTE tv and radio?

In which state are we are still waiting for 800 bodies of little kids buried secretly in the septic tank in a nuns mother and baby home 60 / 70 years ago or whatever to be recovered and buried properly?

In which state do we still have all the airplanes at the main airport airport blessed annually by the Catholic priest there?

And you want N.I. to join the Republic in order to change all that? Pull the other one.

Your "Nationalist Socialists" are great at telling lies to entice a minority, I will give you that. It is quite apt that the Nationalist Socialist party in this state ( S.F. ) erected a statue in Dublin in honour of the man who tried to co-operate with the National Socialism party in Germany in WW2. Says it all.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121998083#Comment_121998083

I'll say it again, shall I?

And a UI represents the best chance we have ever had to remove churches and religiously motivated influence from both jurisdictions.

Both jurisdictions need to do the above.
The RC no longer have the influence they had in the south but we still have work to do. In the north, the influence of religiously and politically motivated organisations like the Orange Order and the religious fundamentalism of the DUP needs to be removed.

mehico

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995737#Comment_121995737

LV was always quite consistent in publicly stating his aspiration for a UI which made him unpopular with some sections of unionisim in the past. He was the opposite of Micheál Martin in this respect.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121998234#Comment_121998234

Nearly as odd as FF and FG coalescing tbh. A FG leader more in favour of unity than his FF counterpart.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996609#Comment_121996609

yes this would be a reasonable solution.
no I have not written to the IRFU I believe in getting out on house in order, so I have previously written to both Ifa and uefa to get gstq replaced by ni specific anthem at ni games.
maybe some nationalists who believe the republic is capable of equality should write to IRFU

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121998083#Comment_121998083

You never answered what you think of the UK being the only theocracy in europe? If from the above post you are genuine about a state needing to be secular then you will think the whole tradition of the Crown needs to go as all gods powers are vested init by British tradition. Why do i think you dont have a problem with the Crown? A UI will be a new republic jurisdiction with a new constitution. There is your big chance to go secular l.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121999561#Comment_121999561

I think the last paragraph should be.

"maybe some nationalists who believe the IRFU is capable of equality should write to IRFU"

The government does not influence the IRFU. It would be the fans.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121999561#Comment_121999561

Playing the English rugby anthem isn't 'equality' though, it's appeasement of people who think that it is NI's anthem.
The different identities of the players are recognised via Ireland's Call, Northern Irish, British and none of those two.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000059#Comment_122000059

This is not about players. It is about bout countries that make up the team being recognised

downcow

Spot on. this is why it is relevant as measure of what may happen in a UI. Exactly the sme would likely happen in all sorts of scenarios in a UI ie the government would wash its hands and say 'not our responsibility'. The government could certainly effect change in matchday IRFU - at a vary basic level they could say President will attend alternative matches and Nothern Ireland should send the matchday dignitary to the other games

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000764#Comment_122000764

And?

The country you want recognised is Northern Ireland, which doesn't have an agreed anthem.
In the context of Rugby, Great Britain, Britain, The UK, do not have a team competing in it.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000779#Comment_122000779

....did you just reply to your own post with a, 'spot on'?!

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121998112#Comment_121998112

You are correct that "the RC church no longer have the influence they had in the south".

However you have not answered the questions, about the present influence :

Tell us again, in which state do Irish kids spend 10% of their time in primary school undergoing religious "instruction"?

Which state has 89% of primary schools Roman Catholic patronage?

Which state still has the Angelus on RTE tv and radio?

In which state are we are still waiting for 800 bodies of little kids buried secretly in the septic tank in a nuns mother and baby home 60 / 70 years ago or whatever to be recovered and buried properly?

In which state do we still have all the airplanes at the main airport airport blessed annually by the Catholic priest there?

The dup and orange order have little or no influence in N.I. compared to the influence the RCC has in the south.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001719#Comment_122001719

The 'question' is irrelevant to the current discussion or certainly to the point I made.
Here it is again:

A UI represents the best chance we have ever had to remove churches and religiously motivated influence from both jurisdictions.

Both jurisdictions need to do the above.
The RC no longer have the influence they had in the south but we still have work to do. In the north, the influence of religiously and politically motivated organisations like the Orange Order and the religious fundamentalism of the DUP needs to be removed.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121999563#Comment_121999563

You do not know the difference between a theocracy and a monarchy.

A theocracy is a government run by religious leaders, or one where there is no distinction between religious and civil laws. Iran and the Vatican City are two examples of theocracies. A monarchy is a government that has a king, queen, emperor or empress as the head of state.

There are twelve sovereign monarchies in Europe e.g. Denmark, Norway, Sweden, the U.K., Spain, the Netherlands,Belgium etc. Interestingly, many if not most Irish people who have emigrated in the past decade or 2 seem to want to go to a country where the UK Queen / King is head of state eg Oz, Canada, Uk, New Zealand..

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001759#Comment_122001759

And the point I made is that the dup and orange order have little or no influence in N.I. compared to the influence the RCC has even to this day in the south.

You still have not answered the questions, about the present influence. Please answer the questions:

Tell us again, in which state do Irish kids spend 10% of their time in primary school undergoing religious "instruction"?

Which state has 89% of primary schools Roman Catholic patronage?

Which state still has the Angelus on RTE tv and radio?

In which state are we are still waiting for 800 bodies of little kids buried secretly in the septic tank in a nuns mother and baby home 60 / 70 years ago or whatever to be recovered and buried properly?

In which state do we still have all the airplanes at the main airport airport blessed annually by the Catholic priest there?

It would not be Ireland, Ireland, Ireland, Ireland, Ireland by any chance?

And you want this state with its flag tainted by the pIRA ( as we saw at the funeral of Pearse McCauley a few weeks ago, the Garda killer who once got a standing ovation at your Sinn Fein Ard Feis ) , to take over NI?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001796#Comment_122001796

And the point I made is that the dup and orange order have little or no influence in N.I.

Fundamentally wrong.

On the basis of religion the DUP have serially blocked the rights of people.
The OO are political influencers.

I have no particular issue with saying that religious influence is still a issue in the south and that a UI represents a tremendous opportunity to finally end religious influence in the running of both jurisdictions as one secular democratic country where people of all religions and none are equal.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001837#Comment_122001837

Again you misquote me. You left out the last part of the sentence.

The point I made is that the dup and orange order have little or no influence in N.I. compared to the influence the RCC has even to this day in the south.

"You still have not answered the questions, about the present influence. Please answer the questions:

Tell us again, in which state do Irish kids spend 10% of their time in primary school undergoing religious "instruction"?

Which state has 89% of primary schools Roman Catholic patronage?

Which state still has the Angelus on RTE tv and radio?

In which state are we are still waiting for 800 bodies of little kids buried secretly in the septic tank in a nuns mother and baby home 60 / 70 years ago or whatever to be recovered and buried properly?

In which state do we still have all the airplanes at the main airport airport blessed annually by the Catholic priest there?

It would not be Ireland, Ireland, Ireland, Ireland, Ireland by any chance?"

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001763#Comment_122001763

A theocracy is where the head of state is ultimately god. As under british tradition all gods powers are vested in the Crown so this makes the UK a theocracy. When an elected prime minister comes to power they must be signed in by the king or queen who is overseeing the crowns (gods) duties.... this is british tradition.

Do you have a problem with the UK being a theocracy is the question? Do you genuinly believe that states should be secular or do you use religion to only take digs at the irish state?