Why I'll say no to a united ireland

mehico

Wasn't able to tune into much of the Labour Pary Conference last weekend but noted the comments in Ivana Bacik's speech stating that planning for a UI must start in the next government with a dedicated department set up for unity planning.

It will be interesting to hear from the other parties with regard to future Irish unity in the coming months in advance of the next GE.

MBSnr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121947617#Comment_121947617

As I've mentioned before, more people in GB care about the Falkland Islands (pop. ~3000) and Gibraltar (pop. ~33K), which are far further away, remaining British than NI (pop. ~2m).

EIREHotspur

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121947717#Comment_121947717

Touche....Can we rest our case on this genius point?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121947617#Comment_121947617

Wishful thinking and naivety

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121947617#Comment_121947617

Some of you guys have form in misunderstanding where peoples heart lies. Two wee pics from today that some it up 🙂 To quote you “I know it hurts to admit it....it should be embarassing....trying to be part of a club who don't want you.” Stop the begging guys and just be happy with what you have got 👍

1) you thought that English players ‘choose’ Ireland - you will only ever get rejects who can’t make the England team

2) you don’t understand the growing northern Irish identity and community. Young nationalists continue to choose their own country, despite the grooming and lure of the neighbouring country. Here’s a gaa star holding his OWC badges

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948337#Comment_121948337

What the relevance of point 1 other than baiting. It has zero to do with the thread title.

How does 2 strengthen your place in the union? Do you think he would prefer a united Ireland or for northern Ireland to stay as part of the UK.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946388#Comment_121946388

Why not answer the question instead of ‘flipping’ it. But at least you admit you are flipping it

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948316#Comment_121948316

That wasn't the point being made. Like it or not there's a creeping apathy at best towards NI as some integral part of the union and vital sibling, no doubt not helped by being an enclave across the water and historical PITA.

While 40 per cent said they would prefer it to stay part of the UK, 33 per cent said they did not mind either way and 17 per cent said they would prefer Northern Ireland to break away.

Hardly the results that suggests a harmonious union of equals when 50% either could care less or actively wished you merged with the Republic. While there's plenty of anecdotal stories of Northern Irish people in Britain talking of how they would be regarded as "Irish" as a reflex, no matter how much it was protested they were "British".

Ulster Unionism exists in a precarious cultural state where its fealty to the political structure it so vociferously pledges love is not necessarily reciprocated. I don't think English people en masse wish NI gone, but I don't buy the idea that the UK is in rude health either, and that NI is a kindred entity. Stop with the baiting comments about Declan Rice when that topic is all about the modern complexities of identity, when the topic was clearly about NI's place in the union and how it's perceived - IE, not great.

If it pleases you, I'm not even sure there's a unified desire to absorb NI down here either, but the cultural links are at least more definitive by dint of our soft border. And it's great to see Nationalists feel confident enough that NI represents their identity, don't think anyone begrudges that despite your bunkered mentality; but if you think NI could exist as its own state, that's another question entirely.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/fifth-of-gb-residents-think-northern-ireland-will-have-left-uk-in10-years-poll-1459489.html

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121947617#Comment_121947617

Again, you are misunderstanding it. Do you think people in Scotland go around every day wondering how much people in England love them. This concept is driven from your own insecurity. As far as I know, we are the only region in the world that has an internationally binding agreement that assures us off self-determination With regard to membership of our nation. England, Scotland and Wales, not to mention Falklands and Gibraltar, do not have that. ROI doesn’t even have it with the EU.

This constant desire on this thread to undermine Northern Ireland and Northern Irish identity is just pure wishful thinking

you guys should contact Conor and tell him that he is wrong when he refers to “my country” in relation to Northern Ireland. Have a wee listen to this clip and it might help you understand how a growing numbers of young nationalist GAA players feel about identity

https://fb.watch/r4U2wJ3kO2/

What was that quote of yours again? ‘I know you hate it…. ‘

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948374#Comment_121948374

You just can't help showing how you view things really.

There you go again telling us triumphantly that the Taig has chosen to play for 'your wee team'.

The answer is, why wouldn't he play for it if it suits him to do it? Maybe, like most normal people, sport/football is not a point of identity for him?

Just crazy that you are reduced to this petty triumphalism to validate Unionism.

What you should be asking yourself is why do Westminster MP's feel empowered to keep shafting you and pushing you away.

The answer is that British ambivalence to NI allows MP's and PM's to do that, if there was a smidgeon of care left an MP would think twice. They don't and that has much more implications for you than a couple of footballers.

MBSnr

>Wishful thinking and naivety

>Again, you are misunderstanding it. Do you think people in Scotland go around every day wondering how much people in England love them. This concept is driven from your own insecurity.

Deflection is your middle name Downcow. All you have to admit is that it's a fact. GB just doesn't particularly care about NI and that is only going to grow. I'm not saying that because I want a UI - I actually don't. You're welcome to remain and be the 'problem' of GB. Sure it's great that you (NI) can decide what you want to do. But that's irrelevant to the point being made. The more flag waving that occurs, trying to prove (to who?) that Unionists are more British than those physically in GB, isn't going to change things. Ironically the need for the continued massive display of this, in a country that is in the UK, screams insecurity about your place in the Union far more than comments on a forum....

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121897472#Comment_121897472

Which side of the border are you talking about? The minority population ( ie Protestant ) decreased from 10% of the population to 3 % in the Republic of Ireland, where in N. Ireland in the same period the minority population there ( ie Catholic ) increased from 31% to forty something per cent. What does that tell you ?

Either that you don't know much about the history or are being selective and ignoring the incentives offered by the UK government.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948337#Comment_121948337

There will be no chance of having him on the Kielty's Late Late Show anyway!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948635#Comment_121948635

True enough about government employment. When the RUC was established in N.I. , 3000 of the 7000 places were reserved for Catholics. When the UDR was set up, 18% of it was Catholic. Contrast that to the same era south of the border, when there were virtually no Protestant Gardai or army. As noted before, there was a huge controversy when a Protestant librarian was appointed in Co. Mayo. DeVelera said, and I paraphrase, if he had one job to offer and two applicants, one protestant and one catholic, he would always give the job to the catholic. Even assuming the Protestant was as fluent in Irish language, which was needed to pass the leaving cert and get in to most universities eg UCD, UCG, UCC.

On a separate issue, anyone see the secret army on BBC last night? Did it deal with McGuinness being filmed loading a car bomb which exploded hours later....British intelligence knew about McGuinness and had enough evidence to jail him but decided to leave him be for obvious reasons?

growleaves

I'm sceptical of the 'Northern Irish identity' and it isn't clear to me if this new NI patriotism is exclusive of Irish nationalism or not.

All of these famous people who have a NI identity are pretty tight-lipped so far about whether they see that as complementary to Irish nationalism (if so, great) or exclusive of it (their choice, obviously). They may not have even formulated a definite opinion on this yet.

It's strongly implied on this thread that Northern Irish identity is de facto complementary to Unionism by creating a space for NI continuing outwith ROI input. Maybe that is the case, I don't know, but there's a lot of wiggle room there.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948696#Comment_121948696

Ah the old reliable "Protestant librarian". Maybe they had didn't have English biscuits in the Garda stations?

And the nice and polite UDR 18%....you never seem to comment on the reasons behind the haste in the number falling to roughly 3% though do you?

flanna01

Good grief...!!! Declan Rice singing God save the Queen!!!

Was that a picture of him with his hand on the three lions....??

Stop the world.. I need to get off!

Realistically, I like reading this thread, it's quite funny in a backwards type of way.

Do any of ye, seriously stop and read some of the posts back?

Declan Rice is employed by an English employer, and too be fair, he is handsomely paid for his efforts. Through hard work & dedication, he has reached the highest level of his chosen profession....

He was born in England and currently lives in England and is enjoying life there.. Why can't people be proud of his achievements, his sporting prowess, and if you like, his Irish heritage? Why keep nit picking on totally irrelevant imagined slights??

Roy Keane - Proud Irishman, some may say a national treasure, his football career long over now, he's a multi-millionaire, still didn't see him rushing to return home again to live... He obviously has settled down in England, and gets on (yes Roy!) with the Brits no problem..

This us and them historical nonsense is complete and utter horsesh1t.

Do people realise that there was a mass emigration to the UK and US among other countries? That a good share of todays Brits can trace their Irish roots back to Ireland within a short few short generations??

History should be respected and learnt from, and yes, there was terrible brutal deeds inflicted upon the Irish back in the day.. But them days, and the generation of people are long gone & dead.

It's the older generations that are keeping the bogeymen alive.. Today's youth are far more open minded, and they can see the hypocrisy of it all.

On St. Patricks Day, after the marching, parades and the customary few pints were over, the local bars and taverns were full of revellers looking to watch the Liverpool v Man U match (Plleeeese! On Paddys day like? Two English clubs in a foreign land, playing a foreign game...)

Iv'e travelled the length and breadth of Ireland, I have visited and socialised countless times in the North, I have indulged the Catholic / Protestant communities many times, and both have been excellent hosts.

Everybody wants to move on, the Peace Wall in Northern Ireland makes me uncomfortable and embarrassed. The year is 2024, and that abomination is still standing.... It still stands today due to the backward mentality of the minority, the same one's who can't help stoking the fire, or nit picking for want of a better phrase..

Yeah, Declan Rice sang an English anthem.... And??????

Clasped the three lions motif on his England shirt.... So what? He is playing at the very top of his sport, he is one of the worlds elite.. Why begrudge him, or belittle him?

Note - Anybody watching the Ireland friendly match this week, will have seen that half of our boys are English born, and haven't a bulls notion what the words to the Irish national anthem are....

** Note - Most importantly, I am neither a Declan Rice fan, nor an Arsenal fan - But that doesn't take away from his sporting brilliance on the pitch.

It's the he said, she said nonsense that is holding the unification up.. The very people who want it the most, are the very people preventing it from happening.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948730#Comment_121948730

It's quite clear from polling that the 'Northern Irish' is a split identity. Unionists identify as Northern Irish for different reasons than Nationalists.

Therefore their position on a UI/Border Poll is also split.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948730#Comment_121948730

Northern Irish identity is about Northern Ireland. Its place in the wider picture, either as part of the UK or part of a federal Ireland is secondary.

To them, Northern Ireland as a separate part of the United Kingdom is fine, or as a separate part of a united federal Ireland is fine. What is not fine is direct rule from London and no separation, or direct rule from Dublin and no separation.

Not that hard to understand.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949093#Comment_121949093

Once more we have Blanch telling us what a Northern Irish identity means, and in such absolute terms too.

I'm Northern Irish; I absolutely do not fall into that category. There are plenty of Northern Irish who favour direct rule from London or Dublin because the devolved government of NI has spent generations demonstrating it's incompetence.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948738#Comment_121948738

Indeed and I did comment more than once on the reason many UDR men left : they were shot in the back when visiting elderly relatives, when coming out of mass etc. It was an extremely dangerous time to be security forces, and if you were from a catholic family or area you were especially vulnerable if you visited...

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949347#Comment_121949347

'The UDR is a group of Rangers supporters put in uniforms, supplied with weapons and given the job of policing the area where Celtic supporters live'

Guess who said that? None other than John Hume.

By 1973 the British government knew how compromised the UDR were, every battalion was led by a former B-Special and in 1973 the known crimes committed by one stolen gun was known by the British, yet they continued to support and publicly laud this sectarian force until 1992.

A LIST OF TERRORIST OUTRAGES IN WHICH ONE OF THE SUB-MACHINE GUNS STOLEN IN THE LURGAN UDR/TAVR CENTRE ARMS RAID ON 23 OCTOBER 1972 HAS SUBSEQUENTLY BEEN USED

The examination (by the DRC) of test cases fired from the SMG recovered from three men, two of whom were known UFF/UVF, following an armed robbery and attempted murder at 192 Shankill Rd on 21 July 1973, has revealed that the same weapon has been used in the following incidents.

1. 3/2/73 - Find of fired case in car CIJ 7010 at junction Crumlin Rd/Century St.

2. 3/2/73 - Kidnapping of R.W. Stewart. Fired cases found in car 5848 WZ. Bally-gomartin Rd.

3. 20/3/73 - The attempted murder of three youths, who were fired at from a passing car, on Brookvale Avenue.

4. 9/5/73 - The attempted murder of Mrs E Armstrong, Tobergill St. Fired cases found at scene in car AJA 7339.

5. 14/5/73 - The attempted murder of Francis McCourt, Church Rd, Whiteabbey. Fired cases found at scene.

6. 31/5/73 - The murder of Thomas Curry, and the attempted murder of others in Muldoon's Bar, Tomb St. Fired cases found at scene.

7. 9/6/73 - Find of fired cases at Carnan St (0450 hours). No report of shooting incident.

8. 9/6/73 - Attempted murder of Frank Haddock in Pacific Avenue/Atlantic Avenue. Fired cases found at scene.

9. 10/6/73 - Attempted murder of Messrs, Thompson, Cochrane, McGowan, and O'Neill, on the Antrim Rd, who were fired at from a passing car. Fired cases were handed to police.

10. 11/6/73 - Attempted murder of members of the Security Forces, Shankill Rd.

11. 9/6/73 - Attempted murder of J J Hawthorne, on Shankill Rd.

Those Catholics who joined quickly realised this ^^ and left by 1973/4. 

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949347#Comment_121949347

Incorrect again. And again. And again on this same topic. The single biggest threat to Catholics (that were of nationalist and/or Irish background) was the institutional sectarianism within the UDR (given that they were UDA with uniforms for a good many).

"Shot in the back coming out of mass" - you live in some sort of fairytale world when it comes to the reality of Northern Ireland.

I'm sure you have another 'tin of biscuits' anecdote to follow.

Still no joy in correcting your outright lies I notice.....

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949093#Comment_121949093

The concept as you've just explained it isn't hard to understand.

Now where is the proof that people who call themselves 'Northern Irish' are separatists like you say?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949446#Comment_121949446

There were thousands of Catholics who served in the security forces in N.I. , right throughout the troubles : they were physically attacked by both sides at various times but the main threat to their lives were from Republicans who killed even retired members because they were retired members, off duty members because they were soft off duty members visiting parents, shot in the back, bomb under the family car etc.

Like poor Garda McCabe in Limerick, some paid the ultimate price.

Incidentally, the killer of Garda McCabe, Pearre McAuley was once given a standing ovation at a Sinn Fein Ard Fheis. It appears S.F. in later years dis-owned him for attacking his wife, not for murdering the Garda. If the woman he attacked was a member of the security forces maybe he would have got a double standing ovation?

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948359#Comment_121948359

Well obviously I tried to give you a different perspective (as in the perspective I would have) - a plus for the city and the country and the greater good. It genuinely boggles my mind how it wouldn't be seen like that.

Croke park hosted soccer and rugby down here when Aviva was being renovated. A few in the GAA and population in general were against it (mainly didn't want to see GSTQ being played in a stadium that the British Army murdered innocent spectators).

But it worked out great over all and people moved on and the vast majority embraced it. Everyone made money - GAA, FAI and IRFU. Not that I could give a sh*t really about money but was a good example of sports coming together.

Did you really think the question you asked posed a moral quandary for me? No offense but it's a warped mindset if so.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949788#Comment_121949788

Wrong again. Despite the fairytales you tell "the nice UDR going to mass or visiting relatives".

There was undoubtedly pressure from within their own community, however the biggest driver of Catholic nationalists leaving was the sectarianism within the UDR and the antics of the governing bodies at the time (internment/continued harassment etc.) Also to add it was clear the the UDR were the B-Specials in new clothes. Couple that with the documented ties to UDA/UVF and the abuse of intel etc....but tell us again about them going to mass and visiting parents....

What you also fail to grasp is that 'Catholic' does not necessarily mean they are of Irish/Nationalist persuasion. There were significant numbers of Catholics that were of English/Scottish lineage and identified as such. Many of those numbers you keep bandying about were former members of UK armed forces that signed up. Dressing the percentage up as purely 'Catholic' V 'Protestant' shows your complete lack of knowledge, wikipedia info grabs you need to repeat over and over to support your 'evidence'.

Still need help in correcting your outright lies? You know the ones highlighted many times that you seem content to bluff your way through in the hope your bluster will smother them....those lies...

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949842#Comment_121949842

It's done because confronting the fact that the UDR were a state sponsored sectarian security force is not palatable.

The fact that the 'state' knew exactly what the UDR was as early as 1973 is just ignored.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949710#Comment_121949710

I didn't say they were separatists. Some of them probably are.

However, they all view Northern Ireland as having a separate and distinct identity, whether that is on its own, as a separate identity within the UK or a separate identity within an All-Ireland framework.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949842#Comment_121949842

As for the reason(s) some (not all, by any means) Catholics left the UDR, I would believe the reasons they gave themselves for doing so ( intimidation and threats 24/7 from Republicans being the outstanding one, naturally enough given so many of their colleages were killed / injured by pIRA, INLA etc ) , rather than some reason you would give.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950054#Comment_121950054

The reasons I give are documented evidence.

The "reasons" you give are made up.

Edit: similiar to those other lies and bits you made up…you know the ones highlighted many times….