Why I'll say no to a united ireland

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950053#Comment_121950053

How do you know that?

I'd never heard the term until recently and I'll continue to regard it as a nebulous concept until somebody can show otherwise.

The late Desmond Fennell is the originator and populariser of the concept of federalism within a UI. He was born in Belfast but did not have a 'Northern Irish' identity as such, and lived in the Connemara Gaeltacht and Dublin.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950067#Comment_121950067

If you think people did not leave the UDR + RUC because of the threat to their lives ( and those of their families - some were killed + injured by car bombs etc ) , colleagues injured and killed, threats 24/7, stress, PTSD from various incidents, intimidation etc, then you really do not understand the troubles. If anyone knows why they left, I would take the reasons they gave themselves. Rather than believing you.

If you were a police officer or soldier, would you have felt comfortable and safe visiting friends or relations or elderly parents if they lived in a Catholic area for example? Or even going to a social function ( we know they would have to had given up the GAA if they played that)?

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950155#Comment_121950155

You really need to read my posts. I already said that 'some' did leave for that reason. However it did not result in the majority of Catholic Nationalists leaving. That was due to the well documented in-built sectarianism within the UDR.

You "not understanding the troubles" is one thing, but your sheer will to ignore the facts that don't align to your made up anecdotes and fairy tales is another.

One thing you still don't understand is the difference between a lie and the truth….like your lies spouted I highlighted for you.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950171#Comment_121950171

You did not answer the question. If you were a police officer or soldier, would you have felt comfortable and safe visiting friends or relations or elderly parents if they lived in a Catholic area for example? Or even going to a social function ( we know they would have to had given up the GAA if they played that)?

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950180#Comment_121950180

Can you read my posts before replying? I have already recognised that local intimidation would have affected some members but certainly not the majority or being the sole reason like you are trying to dress it up as.

The reasons "they left" are well documented; it is largely due to the one sided state backed sectarianism within the UDR (UDA/UVF) rather than your singular notions.

More made up points liked your other lies on this thread.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121912629#Comment_121912629

How is this "you didn't have it as bad as…" argument relevant. Should people have to form some sort of queue behind the most oppressed before standing up for themselves?

The 'victimhood' glosses over a lot of wrongs that you selectively dismiss as 'not my problem'.

The comparison that you're happy to blinker yourself to is that once you have state backed selective treatment; it is inevitable that you will end up with a state of discord.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950185#Comment_121950185

Again and again and again, these people, who will not place any responsibility on the state who had the power, have been asked to link to a credible history where their incredible version is backed up.
It has never been forthcoming.
You can present evidence that the British state knew in '73 that it was sponsoring a sectarian 'security force' for instance, yet this is ignored and countered with anecdote and emotional made up questions.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948730#Comment_121948730

Some of them may be happy with a UI if Northern Ireland continues in the same way as it does in UK

downcow

How many Catholic UDR were killed by either the prods who served with them or even the uda. You are talking absolute nonsense

downcow

So why not answer it????

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950779#Comment_121950779

That's not much of an answer. Like blanch you're just making assertions with no accompanying explanation whatsoever.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950857#Comment_121950857

If you are changing your identity, something is wrong where you live. The biggest movers to a 'Northern Ireland' identity are disillusioned (with their political reps) unionists.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950857#Comment_121950857

I have given you an explanation, you choose not to believe it. It is real, people have adopted it in the census form, they call themselves Northern Irish. The absolute minimum of that is that they see Northern Ireland as a distinct entity, whether that is as part of the UK, independent, part of a federal state, or some other status, is kind of irrelevant. The point is, for the purposes of this thread, that to persuade that group in the middle, which now hold the balance of power on the constitutional issue, you need to persuade them of the merits of a united Ireland that retains a Northern Irish identity.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951234#Comment_121951234

Would you agree that people changing their identity signifies a problem with the status quo?

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951234#Comment_121951234

How the hell do you know what people are thinking when ticking a box in a census form? Your ideology on steriods again.

If the "Northern irish" is a nation of people it will mean that if there is a UI then the nation of Northern Irish will live on as it is just not being attached to a arbitarty jurisdiction line. It will die out as a child born in what was NI has no unique culture that separates it from the rest of Ireland and therfore no reason not just use irish as their identity. If people on here could give me culture that is unique to this supposedly "northern Irish" nation of people then there is a chance the identity would survive a UI but the best I ever got from asking many a time on here is a unique packet of crisps... hardly the makings to be considered a nation of people.

Remember unlike the jurisdictions of ROI, England Scotland and Wales which were formed for those nations of people NI was not formed because there was a unique nation. It was a gerrymandering the irish nation to give pro unionism an advantage over nationlism in a part of Ireland. They could have easily have kept the name "Ireland" for the jurisdiction that stayed in the union and made part leaving have another name. Then where would that leave identities?? We even share the same National patron saint which is both irish and british tradition which you despise

You clearly have a disliking to anything that unifies Ireland. You even were advocating Ireland be split into different times zones to facilitate your hatred of her. Your ideology now to keep partioning Ireland going as long as possible is trying to pretend Northern Irish is a nation of people that need their own separate jurisdiction.... just an excuse to keep Ireland split as long as possible.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950922#Comment_121950922

francie knows unionists better than we know ourselves 😂😂😂. What utter nonsense from him this time.
Of course I get disillusioned often with my political reps - if you don’t then maybe you should be a little more questioning of them.

most unionists would always have been very comfortable with the term northern Irish. The big move is in nationalists referring to themselves as northern Irish. I wouldn’t suggest that has anything to do with disillusionment to their politicians

downcow

What do you mean by changing their identity?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121952251#Comment_121952251

You misunderstand me downcow,
I have said before that the Northern Ireland identity is split on the constitutional question. Some of them will vote for a UI and others will vote for the Union.

downcow

“If people on here could give me culture that is unique to this supposedly "northern Irish" nation of people then there is a chance the identity would survive a UI but the best I ever got from asking many a time on here is a unique packet of crisps...”

This is the disingenuous posting that makes discussions on here almost impossible. Everything that is suggested as northern Irish culture is put down because someone somewhere else in the world also does it another variation of it, and therefore it is not I have asked endless times for a single example of Irish culture that is unique to Ireland. Not one single thing has been given to me. So you can stop using this as a measure, unless you are prepared to accept that Ireland does not have any unique cultural identity either.
let’s try to have a more honest debate

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121952270#Comment_121952270

We don't need it to be 'unique' downcow.
We have an Irish culture and it includes flute bands, sody farls etc etc.
It is you making the claim that there is a unique NI culture and you cannot define it.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951407#Comment_121951407

Nationalists are entitled to move from a position of describing themselves as Irish to a position of describing themselves as northern Irish. I can see how you find that threatening, but you shouldn’t get so wound up about people modifying how they describe themselves a little.

I just hear on the news this morning that you have a world champion, born and reared in Dundalk, who has applied to be British and compete with our team at the Olympics. Whilst I am not a big fan of people changing nationalities due to sporting opportunities, I guess if they work within the rules, then that’s up to them. I actually think there should probably be an age limit where sports stars must commit eg 16 or 18, and after that they should not be allowed to change their national team, IMHO.
If that was the case you would still have Grealish, but the downside is that we would’ve been stuck with McLean.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121952284#Comment_121952284

so, rather than riddles again Francie, are you saying that there is no such thing as Irish culture and identity?

downcow

No Francie, this is actually what you said
“If you are changing your identity, something is wrong where you live. The biggest movers to a 'Northern Ireland' identity are disillusioned (with their political reps) unionists. “

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121952362#Comment_121952362

And I believe that is true, The census shows the movement:
• In Census 2021, 814,600 people (42.8%) living here identified solely or along
with other national identities as ‘British’. This is down from 876,600 people
(48.4%) in 2011.
• In Census 2021, 634,600 people (33.3%) living here identified solely or along
with other national identities as ‘Irish’. This is up from 513,400 people (28.4%)
in 2011.
• In Census 2021, 598,800 people (31.5%) living here identified solely or along
with other national identities as ‘Northern Irish’. This is up from 533,100 people
(29.4%) in 2011.

The 'British' identity is falling and the Irish and Northern Irish identities are rising.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121952362#Comment_121952362

Yes there is, a very vibrant one and it includes all the stuff you do culturally. Your flute bands can come to the Fleadh and take part in competition with other flute bands etc

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121952349#Comment_121952349

The girl is just doing what many have done downcow. Don't be using her politically because there isn't a scintilla of politics in her decision.

BlueSkyDreams

Donaldson gone....where does that leave the DUP?

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121952922#Comment_121952922

Who are the most likely candidates to replace? You'd imagine Little-Pengelly will be a shoe in, if only for the optics of a party riven with ageing angry men.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121952413#Comment_121952413

If sports people have a choice of nationality as regards qualifying for the Olympics, it is often easier to get on to the Irish Olympic team than the UK one due the the UK population being so much bigger than the Irish population. So I sort of agree with you on that point, one persons decision is not really significant in the overall scheme of things.

Having said that, the reputation of our flag (the Irish flag) took a bit of a battering during the week as well, being placed on the coffin of a Garda killer, and the same man who was once given a STANDING OVATION at the Sinn Fein Ard Fheis, the annual party conference of Ireland's biggest political party. What an embarassment,

Since then, Sinn Fein seem to have disowned the Garda killer not because he killed an Irish policeman but because he attacked ( non-fatally) his wife.

Also not a great week for SF / IRA, after the revelations on the "secret army" documentary on BBC.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121952946#Comment_121952946

Gavin Robinson appointed interim leader. Would have thought the natural choice would have been Pengelly but obviously not.