Why I'll say no to a united ireland

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121919287#Comment_121919287

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121919256#Comment_121919256

So calling out orange lodges, whose reason for being seems to be to demonise Catholics, and for some reason forbids members from even marrying Catholics, is bigoted?

People castigating the Irish language or Gaelic Games, which have existed for a thousand years or more (oldest vernacular in Europe, and hurling the oldest field game on the planet) as a representative of violent republicanism, which is 60 years old, is this not bigotry?

The bonfires, which centre around burning effigies of Nationalists, adorned with tricolours and KAT, and funded by loyalist terror groups - is this not bigotry? Wearing para t-shirts given the history of that regiment in NI is not bigotry?

No, that's all fine to you guys, but in your "reality", calling it out is the thing that is bigoted. Pull the other one.

You are the same people who label the south as more sectarian (despite the fact Catholicism has fallen to 65% in census, I would say 30% in reality) and despite us being one of the most open and friendly countries in the world by many metrics (at least before the riots when that poor girl was stabbed).

Youse refuse to admit the oppression in NI that lead to the troubles. You scramble to find any shred of evidence, however weak, to equivocate NI'S shameful treatment of Catholics as being not as bad as ROI treatment of minorities. You say protestant schools, and protestants in general, are discriminated against. You say that the Irish flag should be scrapped in ROI as it is sectarian. You say dual language signs label republican areas and are a threat to Unionists. You say the GAA, the largest volunteer organisation on this island, is the equivalent of the sectarian OO.

All of it is LIES, that pathetically attempt to justify or excuse Loyalist bigotry and British colonialism.

I am cynical but am glad to see the turn the DUP is making under Little Pengally, and Sinn Fein under O'Neill. The bravery they are showing in recognizing the good in the other side is evident, and their willingness to sideline the extremists and build bridges is hopefull for NIs future, whatever side of the border it settles on.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920289#Comment_121920289

As I said, it is very difficult to respond to a post that is both extremely prejudiced and extremely long. But I will get all sorts of accusations thrown against me if I do not. I really must break it down though and two a number of responses. There will just be this cherry picking attacks on my response.

It’s actually difficult to know how to respond in a way that does not just escalate from that ridiculous rant, but here goes:

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920289#Comment_121920289

“So calling out orange lodges, whose reason for being seems to be to demonise Catholics, and for some reason forbids members from even marrying Catholics, is bigoted?”

I have never been a member of the OO, but i recognise the difficulty for an organisation that is hundreds of years old and marries culture, Community, religion and politics - how to hold all those together, and with members joining for any one or any combination of those reasons. I Would prefer to see religion taken out of the orange order, but I know members for whom that is their primary reason for being a member. But surely you can recognise these difficulties when you seem close to the GAA, who tries to mix most of the above as well and ends up tied and knots as well.

The orange order is very clear that you need to be a member of the reformed faith to be a member, that really is no different than many Catholic orders, and even the Catholic Church - and as someone pointed out here recently, even the Irish cabinet would not attend the funeral of their Prime Minister because it was in a reformed faith church.

So I absolutely would like to see the orange order, get rid of some of the centuries old language, but there are many other organisations who also need to do the same that I don’t hear you mention - that might be something to do with your hatred and prejudice towards unionists

downcow

“People castigating the Irish language or Gaelic Games, which have existed for a thousand years or more (oldest vernacular in Europe, and hurling the oldest field game on the planet) as a representative of violent republicanism, which is 60 years old, is this not bigotry?”

this claim you made just comes from your defensiveness. I don’t hear anyone castigating Irish language or Gaelic games

What I do hear is people honestly and accurately discussing how Republicanism and sectarian scumbags have trailed the Irish language through the gutter for 50 years. They have politicised it and weaponised it. They have said that every Irish word spoken is another bullet in the campaign. They have tried to mark our territory by naming some roads in Irish based on the community background of residents. They have sectarian slogans They shout and Daub on Walls and Irish.

As for Gaelic games, the only people castigating them are those involved, who continue to allow them to be used to normalise sectarianism. Whether that be naming grounds after sectarian killers, holding sectarian concerts which devastated communities, giving participating kids medals remembering, terrorists, etc. etc. You are shooting the messenger instead of cleaning up the act.

downcow

“The bonfires, which centre around burning effigies of Nationalists, adorned with tricolours and KAT, and funded by loyalist terror groups - is this not bigotry? Wearing para t-shirts given the history of that regiment in NI is not bigotry?”

Now, this is the most ridiculous rant. I wonder do you really believe this? Do you understand that the vast majority of bonfires do not burn effigies of anything, do not have tricolours?, etc and are certainly not funded by terror groups. Of course, there are isolated community bonfires that are a demonstration of sectarianism - and these exist in both communities. But for you to lambast our bonfires like this would be like me saying that all GAA clubs are named after sectarian killers. I accept this to be nonsense. Because I have taken a little interest in the facts. Maybe you could visit a bonfire this year and get your eyes opened about the community spirit, the fun, the kids, the bouncy castles, the parades, and not a thought of Republicanism and not a tricolour in sight.

educate yourself

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920289#Comment_121920289

There’s a few more paragraphs I have not addressed yet, but I am getting bored trying to address this nonsense and I have to go to work. if you want to be more succinct and raise a particular issue, I will certainly respond and help with your education

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920387#Comment_121920387

I have absolutely no hatred of Unionism. It is a valid political stance and very understandable. Triumphalism and supremacy I do hate.

Imagine your people went through hundreds of years invasions, rapes, thievery, plantations, indentured servitude, massacres, conscriptions, laws targeting your religion, famine, burnouts and war.

Imagine your vibrant language, music, sport and culture were all but wiped out.

Imagine a group of people who claim to represent those that carried this out, celebrating where it all started (bonfires and marches), bouncy castles or not.

Imagine the parts of your culture that cling on, mainly sport and language, which are open to all, are labelled by these same people as sectarian for having the temerity of having survived in the face of annihilation.

Of course these things are much bigger and broader than republicanism, which makes up a tiny fraction of their history.

What I describe above is what you are doing right now and attempting to explain why it is ok.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920387#Comment_121920387

You didn't address anything that he claimed. You just came up with a wishlist of what you wanted the OO to be.

The OO is constitutionally sectarian and has demonised catholics and has members who were involved in sectarian attacks on Catholics..

The OO is not comparable to religious orders, it is NOT a religious order. Nor is it comparable to a sporting oprganisation.

The OO has been involved in violent protest against equality reforms.

The OO is overtly political while it pretends not to be, most recently active in attempting to influence the Protocol discussions.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920484#Comment_121920484

Let me set you a little challenge. If you do not hate unionists and protestants, then why don’t you sit down now and look at your posts and try to look at it with a protestant or unionist shoes on.

It is much better if you can identify what is so bigoted about what you’re writing in your posts rather than me telling you.

You are listing me stuff over centuries. I can list you stuff that my generation have lived through in my local town. I can point to horrendous stuff, Community dispersed, triumphalism of Republicans, murder, child abuse etc etc all at the hands of local Republicans. The organisation you seem to adore and think is squeaky clean, names it premises after the people that done this. Can you try to imagine if a sports club in Derry called itself the ‘Soldier F club’ And hosted groups regularly who sings songs about the parachute regiment, and then the crowd chant ‘ooh ahh up the Paras’. if there were people walking about Derry with that club shirt on with either the ulster covenant or a picture of Michael Stone on the back of it, what would you think of that sports body? And don’t avoid that honest question, what would you think of that sports group?

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920387#Comment_121920387

Discrimination and sectarianism is built into the tennets of the OO. You cannot marry a Catholic nor even attend a Catholic ceremony whilst a member.

No such equivalence down here, and if there is some lunatic fringe group that has these rules, it has absolutely no prominence on daily life as the OO does in NI.

Yet you bring up the GAA in the same breath....

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920400#Comment_121920400

Again all you are doing here is handwaving away, annual, persistent and Unionist supported bigotry and hate on display at bonfires. You have done this before.

The Parades Commission had to clean up your culture of marching(without any thanks from Unionism), it is now the turn of these divisive and inflammatory bonfires. Republicanism has worked hard at getting rid of their fires and have diverted young people into more positive expressions of their culture, it's your turn now to unequivocally condemn these events and those adults who organise and enable them.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920511#Comment_121920511

I don’t think the orange order would claim to not be political.

A lot of what you claim in your post could be said about many organisations in this country. We have cane through a violent conflict in which religion was used as a ralllying call by both sides.

you continually claim about Orange order members being involved in paramilitaries etc. exactly the same is true of the GAA, which has huge numbers involved. Indeed, the person that we mentioned in this discussion who terrorised the protestants in his local town, was a member of the GAA and our local MP has his new office named after him.

I could list lots of problems with the orange order and indeed I’m happy to do so, the problem is that you guys cannot do the same about changed that are needed in the GAA. Blinded by prejudice.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920519#Comment_121920519

I disagree with many old historic or order rules. But nobody obeys them, and of course people like you misquote.

I know of very active Orange men who married to Catholics. And I cannot think of any, who do not attend, Catholic funerals, Catholic weddings, etc.

You keep saying the GAA is a sport, but I cannot become a member simply because I want Northern around to remain in the United Kingdom. The GAA rules are very clear on this in the same way as the orange order.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920526#Comment_121920526

I would hate to see the bonfires disappear. For most working class unionist young people, they are the highlight of the year, ahead of even the 12th and Christmas. There is stuff at occasional fires that is inappropriate and should be stopped, but I do not hear you calling for Saint Patrick’s day parades to stop because of what happens add some of those. I would say there should be work to make the Saint Patrick’s Day parades more inclusive, but I do not think they should be stopped just because of the behaviour of some

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920527#Comment_121920527

Research, he tells others:

I don’t think the orange order would claim to not be political.

What would you call this?

https://www.goli.org.uk/declaration

Why, if they are not political are they making political declarations and attempting to influence politicians?

BTW: Members of almost every organisation have been paramilitaries. I didn't claim otherwise. It is your claims about the OO that are under the microscope here.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920543#Comment_121920543

Can't help with the 'look over there' handwaving.

The bonfire culture being referred to is toxic, and divisive and is not good for any child involved. Like your parades, NOBODY has any issue with the ones that pass off peacefully where they are wanted. But the divisive, hate filled ones where they were not wanted had to be stopped and banned forever.

Who was looking for one of the most divisive parades we have ever seen to be again forced through an area it was not wanted in a triumphalist throwback to the bad old days? Oh look...it was these guys:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/orangemen-barred-from-garvaghy-road-for-19th-successive-year-1.3148733

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920546#Comment_121920546

Yes, you like to put me under the microscope Francie.

maybe you should read my post more carefully before launching another attack. In your rush to have a go, I think you have simply identified that we agree with each other with regard to the order being amongst other things political.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920675#Comment_121920675

The Order claims to be non political when it is and always has been, as you have agreed. political.

Nobody is attacking you, the attack is on what you are posting.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920514#Comment_121920514

I am no IRA supporter. And the things I mentioned are not ancient, they are as old as centuries and as recent as the timeframe you are talking about, right up to the present day.

The centuries old ones have had a profound effect on everything in this country, including the language I am using typing this.

I lament every bomb was ever detonated and bullet fired in NI in the name of republicanism, but also lament that ordinary people were so terrorised that they felt bombs and bullets were legitimate.

You lambast the former without genuinely recognizing the latter. When you do allude to it, you try to normalize it or equivocate it with things that have no equal. Others on here deny it altogether.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920534#Comment_121920534

Not the same as the OO. it doesn't discriminate based on religion. You can marry who you want.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920543#Comment_121920543

What is st Patrick's day a celebration of? does it inherently sh*t on any other culture? It may attract extremist republicans in your area but I am talking generally (parades happen throughout the world). Like language and sport, it transcends your beefs.

What do the bonfires represent? Do they inherently sh*t on any other culture?

No equivalence.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920534#Comment_121920534

I didn't realise that active OO members married Catholics and blind eyes were turned. Odd, but good to know.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920396#Comment_121920396

 "I don’t hear anyone castigating Irish language or Gaelic games"

I think the word "scumbags" is the term you yourself used to describe 2 volunteer GAA members who had the audacity to fundraise for a terminally ill child.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920534#Comment_121920534

Correct. And I cannot think of any sports organization which names its grounds after paramilitaries / terrorists either, other than the GAA. And you are right about some Orange Men married to Catholics, there are some. I also know of some Catholics who are Freemasons in Ireland, an organization which some Catholics mix up with the OO.

You do not hear Republicans complaining about their own semi-secret clubs that involve regalia etc, like the Foresters in Newry.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920543#Comment_121920543

I don't understand what the problem is with St Patrick.

In fact the last time I was in Armagh, both cathedrals were named after him, the Protestant one and the Catholic one too.

I think there might be a Protestant cathedral with the same name in Dublin too.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921117#Comment_121921117

What's to complain about?

Do they bring NI to a standstill annually? Have they had to be banned from parading? Have they a history of formenting sectarian hatred? Do they agitate politically?

Nobody either, names grounds after terrorists. They name then after former members of the club who they don't see as terrorists.

If you want an NI with statues to the oppressors of Irish people and even the very definition of a 'terrorist' (somebody who raised a private army) Carson then you are going to have to accept that people are allowed to commemorate their dead.

Do you think all commemoration/celebration of those defined by one community as oppressors or terrorists should be banned? There is no halfway house here where you get to pick who is one of those(oppressors or terrorists) and who isn't.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921173#Comment_121921173

You say "Nobody either, names grounds after terrorists. They name then after former members of the club who they don't see as terrorists."

If Bin Laden named something after one of the terrorists who flew the airplane full of fuel ( a flying bomb) in to the twin towers on 9/11, or if Ghadaffi in Libya when he was alive named a sports ground in Libya after one of the Lockerbie bombers, that would be naming a sports ground after a terrorist. Would not matter if SOME (not ALL) of the locals there saw the bombers as terrorists or not.

The only difference between some of the pIRA bombers and the 9/11 and lockerbie bombers is one of scale.

FrancieBrady

It's bad when a Unionist is writing articles like this.

Structural issues within the UK economy can’t be solely fixed by the Assembly or local politicians. It is mind boggling that there is a complete unwillingness within unionism to confront or discuss these problems. Debates about the union seem unconnected with reality and the difficulties that the case for the union faces.

Smart unionists know a border poll will be challenging if economic conditions do not improve. It’s time for a dose of reality.

https://www.irishnews.com/opinion/we-unionists-must-admit-the-truth-the-economic-case-for-the-union-lies-in-tatters-sarah-creighton-KWVIAAFZPVBONM3PXNN4S5F4LA/

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921241#Comment_121921241

If Keir Stammer raised a private army and with the help of monied people in the British establishment armed it to the hilt and made threats, what would he be? And what would a statue to him be?

As I said, you don't get to make the calls if you are not going to call it ALL out.

Equality - look up what it means.

FrancieBrady

Change can happen very fast. Momentum grows. An SoS has nothing to lose electorally in Britain.

“The balance in England and Wales is negative towards independence for Scotland and about independence for their own territories. What is noteworthy about attitudes to NI, however, is that everyone in England, Scotland and Wales is above the midpoint about its future,” she says, emphasising the word “everyone”.

And there is drift in the numbers compared with the 2021 State of the Union Survey: “We have seen opinion in Northern Ireland [about unification] move to the other side of the midpoint. Barely, but it is now above the midpoint,” she says.

https://sluggerotoole.com/2024/03/21/england-wales-and-scotland-all-now-in-favour-of-irish-unification/