Why I'll say no to a united ireland

PeaSea

A positive return within each of the 4 countries in the UK on the question "what do people think about Ireland being unified" (2023 State of the Union survey) :

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/03/21/england-wales-and-scotland-all-now-in-favour-of-irish-unification-research-shows/

"And there is drift in the numbers compared with the 2021 State of the Union Survey: “We have seen opinion in Northern Ireland [about unification] move to the other side of the midpoint. Barely, but it is now above the midpoint,” she says."

Clearly attitudes are changing.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920679#Comment_121920679

So we are agreeing the orange order are political. To be honest any organisation their size would be daft to not be political.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920564#Comment_121920564

You keep doing this. Picking out isolated instances and claiming that the bonfire culture is toxic.

If you are envious of the bonfire culture, then just say that.

Bonfires are here to stay. We are about to enter the laughable season when sf suddenly get very concerned about the health and safety of young unionists. I do smell every time I hear them raising concern about young people getting hurt at bonfires. I don’t hear any concern about young people getting hurt in Gaelic matches.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920893#Comment_121920893

No blind eyes are turned. It is completely open, a neighbour of mine who is an orange man married a local Catholic girl Who is whole family, including herself or steeped in Irish Dancing and traditional Irish music. Why are you getting the idea that this is not allowed and cannot happen?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921464#Comment_121921464

picking out isolated instances 

That is just laughable.

Have your bonfires, nobody is stopping them, like parades or bands.

What you need to stop are the toxic, hate filled ones. Take some responsibility.

*Comparing some poor misguided youngster getting hurt as these pyres to hate get higher and higher to sports injuries is just baffling.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920872#Comment_121920872

I used it as an equivalent to help you understand. Actually, my local Saint Patrick’s Parade has probably done more than any to attempt to be cross Community. It is one of the very few things are Council ever done to at least try and reach out. But they cannot control the crowds behaviour, and also Sf determination to insist that the tricolour is part of the event.

I do think that, if sf would approach Saint Patrick’s Day with integrity, maybe we could move it on. It’s not so long since they were leading a parade in the US carrying racist anti English banner at the front.

Francis McM

Ryanair CEO Michael O’Leary is head of arguably Ireland's most successful business and by some metrics Europe's largest airline. Ryanair is now the largest airline in the world as measured by stock market capitalisation. So someone who has his head screwed on, knows what people will and will not spend money on and he calls out bullsh*t when he sees it.

He said recently he doesn’t believe in a United Ireland in his lifetime: Quote “I’m not sure there’ll be a sufficient majority north of the border and I’m not even sure there’ll be a majority south of the border when they realise what the cost of maintaining Northern Ireland is. The Northern Ireland economy is funded by Britain. The net subsidy is about £5-6 billion a year. There are lots of public sector jobs. It doesn’t stand on its own two feet.”

Who do we believe, the SF finance spokesperson ( shouts-person) who dropped out of college twice, the last time in Letterkenny, or the man who grew a little Irish airline from almost nothing to be probably the biggest airline in the world outside the USA in terms of passenger numbers carried?

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921500#Comment_121921500

Thanks and I partially understand your point, but they are not the same.

The bonfires inherently celebrate the oppression of another culture and religion (battle of the boyne victory and williamite conquest of ire). Whether it is a bouncy castle bonfire or KAT bonfire, that is the point of them. Sh*t on the other.

Nobody that I know in ROI gives a damn about the battle of the boyne, but it's the way in which some in your community use it to triumphalise misery inflicted on Catholics, particularly in times when Catholics were actively discriminated against by the NI state, which many find v distasteful.

That has no equivalence whatsoever in the South. St Patrick's day is a celebration of being Irish and is recognized as such around the world.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921571#Comment_121921571

Michael has one vote like everyone else.

He also idolises profit and has no value on anything else.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921624#Comment_121921624

He is a lot more intelligent than Shouty from Donegal (some people call him DOS, drop out shouty ) , and he has done a lot more for the Irish people - by making airfares affordable ( freedom to travel ), by employing thousands of people, by paying huge amounts of taxes - that the terrorist organization which murdered Garda McCabe ever did.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921117#Comment_121921117

"I cannot think of any sports organization which names its grounds after paramilitaries / terrorists either, other than the GAA"

Here's 6 to get you started. There's loads more. I'll let you dismiss these ones first.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela_Stadium

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adem_Jashari_Olympic_Stadium

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camille_Chamoun_Sports_City_Stadium

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_of_February_Stadium

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Mokaba_Stadium

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_ibn_al-Walid_Stadium

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921649#Comment_121921649

...and he has one vote like everyone else.

He likes controversy and tries constantly to provoke it. Don't rise to it would be my advise.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921655#Comment_121921655

The best of a bad lot is the one in South Africa. Nelson Mandela denounced terrorism: some of the pIRA men the GAA honour never did.

Besides, I would not look at South Africa's development as anything to admire. They cannot literally keep the electricity on over there now, daily rolling power cuts for hours at a time. Income per capita has been falling for over a decade, Unemployment at over 33% is the world's highest, and youth unemployment exceeds 60 per cent. Also, even Mandela is not as crystal clear as you think. The operations that he helped to plan were not mainly targeted at civilians. He was in prison by the time bombs did start to go off among civilians.

You should go to S.A. and the Middle East some time, fascinating places. Would you like to live there or the places where Republicans courted like Libya, FARC controlled Columbia, North Korea? No.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921056#Comment_121921056

Absolutely not. My problem was that they put the photo of a terminally ill child on their raffle ticket to raise money for facilities (and said that they would be making a donation out of the proceeds to the child - no mention of a percentage or anything else). They also also went to everyone’s door, which I have a notion is illegal, and put pressure on people to give to GAA facilities who would prefer not to

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921148#Comment_121921148

No problem whatsoever with Saint Patrick. There were lots of parades in Northern Ireland and in both communities for Saint Patrick. There was also the annual presentation of Shamrock to the Royal Irish (UDR)

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921716#Comment_121921716

"Nelson Mandela denounced terrorism"

Have you a link for this? I'd be interested in how he worded that.

The Mandela stadium I linked to by the way is in Algeria. The one I linked to in South Africa is the Peter Mokaba stadium. Mokaba was another convicted "terrorist".

Nevertheless I'm glad you agree with me that it's not just GAA grounds that may be named after people that have been convicted of terrorist activities.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921733#Comment_121921733

No.

Your problem is with the GAA. Go back and read your post again.

"The past was horrendous but it continues more subtly. Eg I have just had the Grab All Association knock my door this evening"

"They ‘offered’ me a raffle ticket. The proceeds off it would help a very ill child and also for their facilities development"

"Simply disgusting."

"I dare not say no."

"these scumbags make me angry!"

And yet this morning you state ... "I don’t hear anyone castigating Irish language or Gaelic games"

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921613#Comment_121921613

I couldn’t find the cartoon I was looking for, but here is an explanation I found. I think it sums up the problem for many on here including yourself. Just read it and consider.

Imagine a scene divided down the middle. On each side, there’s a lamb standing peacefully, looking across to the other side with a friendly gaze. Behind each lamb, unbeknownst to them, looms a large, menacing lion. The lion’s shadow casts over the lamb, but the lamb is unaware of its presence. Each lamb sees the lion behind the other lamb and perceives it as a threat, while not recognizing their own.

This depiction serves as a poignant reminder that often, communities may be unaware of the threats or negative aspects within their own group while being quick to spot them in others. It’s a call for self-awareness and understanding in communal relationships.

The lambs could quite easily be the OO & the GAA. They certainly represent the two communities here, particularly in the height of the conflict, but yes, also now.

Francis McM

The GAA is a political association, it has political aims. Sad but true. Other sporting organizations do not. Do I have to get out the GAA rule book again for you?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921909#Comment_121921909

How could it be? Blanch isn’t a mationalist/republican yet he is a GAA supporter. Linda Ervine runs a GAA club. The RUC had a GAA club. The GAA doesn’t involve itself in political life either.

You are also confusing a rule with an aspiration.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921966#Comment_121921966

You are confusing individuals with the organization. I said the GAA is a political association. It drags politics in to sport. Look at its own Official Guide :

"The Association has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32-County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.”

That is in the GAA Official Guide, Part 1, containing the Constitution and Rules, Chapter 1.2

In the preamble to the rules, the GAA writes “Those who play its games, those who organise its activities and those who control its destinies see in the GAA a means of consolidating our Irish identity... Since she has not control over all the national territory, Ireland’s claim to nationhood is impaired.”

At Chapter 1.8(a) the Official Guide says “The National Flag [ie the Irish Tricolour] should be flown at games in accordance with protocol.”

At 1.8(b): “Where the National Anthem [ie the Soldier’s Song] precedes a game, teams shall stand to attention, facing the Flag, in a respectful manner.”

You do not think the GAA is an organisation with a strong Irish nationalist ethos?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121922035#Comment_121922035

Ireland has 32 counties the last time I looked.

Aspiring to strengthen a national identity is not political, you can identify as you wish in both jurisdictions. Read the GFA..

GSTK is played at NI soccer games, what does that say about the IFA?

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921893#Comment_121921893

But how? The OO is inherently sectarian and involves itself in politics in an openly anti Irish, anti catholic way under the veneer of being pro British, even though nowhere else in Britain behaves like that.

The GAA is non sectarian, any religion or nationality can play, and does so down here. It has a political ethos toward advancing the unification of Ireland (given that it was born at a time when Irishness was being wiped out). But it does not actively engage in politics in any capacity compared to the OO.

NIMAN

From Today's Irish Times

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921828#Comment_121921828

You know what you’re doing. My post was very clear.

My problem was with two people who decided it was appropriate to not unionist Doors in a very Republican area and ask for proceeds for their organisation. Even worse, they were making use of a terminal child to generate income for their facilities.

my neighbour thought faster than me, and he was saying that he simply said I don’t do raffles, and give them £50 for the sick child. - will it all go to the sick child, who knows?

so scumbags was not a reference to the GAA. I would hope that the GAA as a whole would not condone either of the two behaviours listed above.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921966#Comment_121921966

No, I am not talking about aspirations, I am talking about terms and conditions for membership. Now if some overlook that in the same way as the OO overlook their archaic rules, then we will have to live with that in the meantime until both organisations move into the 21st century

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121922071#Comment_121922071

It says that the Ifa still have a journey to go to become completely inclusive. I have spoken out often about this as I would like a Northern Ireland specific anthem played to be more inclusive. Consistency.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121922071#Comment_121922071

Geographically Ireland is 32 counties. Politically it is 2 jurisdictions, with 2 separate currencies, legal systems, social security systems, taxation systems, etc etc.

Other sports apart from the GAA do not have Nationalist politics tied up in their official guides, and in these islands / western Europe other sports do not name their sports grounds after terrorists.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121922089#Comment_121922089

What about the Foresters and Opus Dei, what have you to say about them? Have you heard of them? By your definition , they are just as sectarian as the OO are they not? Except they are Catholic so you do not criticize them?

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121922281#Comment_121922281

Indeed your post is crystal clear for all to see and it's interesting that you stand over it.

What's confusing me is that in this "republican area" (your words) how on earth did they know that you had a "unionist door" (again your words)?

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121922540#Comment_121922540

They could very well be but I haven't a clue, genuinely never heard of them. There are religious headbangers everywhere, but in an open and inclusive society like ROI they play a non existent role in our politics and day to day lives.

The only non church Catholic leaning group I can think of is the Iona institute who lobbied against same sex marriage/ abortion referenda etc. To my knowledge they aren't sectarian or republican, but they play a minuscule role in general Irish life.

This is more simply examples of what to am saying, false Equivocation to justify or excuse supremacism.