Why I'll say no to a united ireland

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178852#Comment_122178852

As long as you behave yourself, I’ve no issue, we take in people from all over the world.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178800#Comment_122178800

If you throw petrol bomb, or rocks, at a heavily armed police/army with intent to harm or kill, then you run the risk of retaliation with deadly force.

What about if you shoot a child on their way home from the shop with a carton of milk Dav when there was no rioting in the area?
Or if camera footage shows you were lying when you claimed a mother shot in the head with a rubber bullet was involved in rioting?

Maybe you can tell us how many went to jail or suffered consequences for crimes like the above or for Bloody Sunday or Ballymurphy etc

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178769#Comment_122178769

Read the post again. Except read it carefully this time. I am quoting the complete sentence: " You also fail to mention attacks before that, the 1956-62 IRA campaign etc." Yes, there were other attacks between the 1956-62 IRA campaign and Bloody Sunday. You wrote, in post no. 9535:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178488#Comment_122178488

What a silly silly post. Nobody suggested all of a sudden those "nasty British" suddenly went amook TEN YEARS after the IRA border campaign of 1956-62, which killed 6 RUC and injured about 40 more.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178852#Comment_122178852

A rioter with a petrol bomb? I do not think so. There were thousands of those in N.I. back during the troubles though.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178962#Comment_122178962

So when is it ok for 'professional soldiers' them to run amok? When is it ok for the British establishment, army and judiciary to cover it up?

They killed innocents Francis again and again and again.

How many went to jail or suffered consequences for doing that?

How many went to jail when they were found to be lying?

How many went to jail for the cover-ups?

This did not just happen in Ireland, it happened in other colonies too.
Taking a side and killing indiscriminately in an attempt to terrorise people into submission. Classic colonialsm.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122177686#Comment_122177686

well, of course it was not just a few bad provos. They all had the same purpose, i.e. kill people.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179000#Comment_122179000

Stop diverting, where do you get the ten years from?

We all know the vast vast majority of the hundreds of thousands of security forces who served in N.I. did not run amook or shoot anyone or bomb anyone. You do realise every police force in the world, inc our Gardai, has shot innocents? Mistakes do happen, tragic and all as they are. If the comrades of the party you support did not plant 19,000 bombs, kidnap and disappear innocents etc, engage in the failed armed struggle etc an awful lot less people would have been hurt. The pIRA wanted war, and thought it would get them a U.I. The security services wanted peace, they did not like being sniped at, blown up when off duty in the family car etc.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179037#Comment_122179037

So, how does this one work?

'Sorry, Mr, and Mrs X, your child is dead, shot by a bad egg, but don't worry the other hundred thousand lads are all good chaps, never harmed a fly'.

Or, the vast majority of German soldiers were only serving their country, it was only a few bad eggs caused all the bother'.

Am I doing it right?

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179017#Comment_122179017

You've decided to hone in on that one and avoid addressing all the examples provided which yourself and Francis have used to justify British forces crimes.

Colour me unsurprised.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179094#Comment_122179094

so would you stop all Irish people driving because some of them are bad apples and drive recklessly killing people?

How can you tell a mother of a child killed on the road that most drivers a good but there are a few bad?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179737#Comment_122179737

That is what you would tell them. No sane person would.

I notice you and others avoiding this question.

How many of these ‘bad apples’ lost their jobs or did jail?

Start with those who killed children,

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179799#Comment_122179799

the example that was given, which I know little about. - I understand there was a vicious riot going on in the street and the Ira were firing live rounds at the army. A soldier was using restraint by not firing live rounds but fired plastic bullets to try to maintain order and protect life. One of those plastic batons went stray through a window and killed a child.

who caused the death = PIRA

Who should go to jail = PIRA

Should the soldier go to jail = No

Seems fairly simple to me.

Are you one of these people who think that firstaiders should be prosecuted for breaking ribs when they are carrying out CPR?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122180497#Comment_122180497

There was no riot and the child was coming back from a shop and had a carton of milk in her hand in the case I mentioned.

This 'we were fired on/there was a riot' accusation was used as an excuse over and over again, from Derry to Belfast to excuse the firing of rubber/plastic bullets and live rounds. (They also knew that rubber/plastic bullets were as lethal as a live round but carried on using them)

The security forces lied in another case of a human rights campaigner's killing and were found out to be lying - prosecutions? Nah, why would an honourable, democratic, fair and responsible government do that? Her family are still fighting for justice with many others. Four British soldiers only now being charged with the killing of 2 men in 1972 after years of the family campaigning. Many many more

Families have had to campaign for years just to get even a proper investigation. Loads of them ongoing.

What does your honourable, democratic, fair and responsible government do? Shuts down any route to justice for those families. Justice for your own community is just collateral damage too as they seek to protect themselves from the truth.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122180611#Comment_122180611

50 years on, with no cctv or dna ( cctv, dna, phone footage etc was not around at the time) it is very difficult to prove what went on. Especially as terrorists never kept records and continually lied through their teeth (even a bearded one says he was never in the IRA but the dogs in the street know he was).

We also know attacks on the security forces were almost daily. It was reported somewhere like a total of 120,000 rubber/plastic bullets were fired. We also know these were only fired as a last resort : if a security force person saw McGuinness or Adams out walking or shopping he or she did not fire a plastic bullet towards him. Good job they did not shoot McGuinness anyway, sure after he was turned was'nt he one of the ones giving them so much information and helping them.

You did not answer Downcow's excellent question ( no surprise as you so seldom answer questions) : Are you one of these people who think that firstaiders should be prosecuted for breaking ribs when they are carrying out CPR?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122180723#Comment_122180723

50 years on, with no cctv or dna ( cctv, dna, phone footage etc was not around at the time) it is very difficult to prove what went on. 

Sorry, there is no excusing the 'bad eggs', they lied through their teeth and the 'honourable' British said on you go, live your life you won't face any justice if we can possibly avoid it. And avoid they have, in this case and many others.

However, their claims were contradicted as the incident was caught on film by a Canadian film crew.

mehico

Interesting analysis from Professor John Doyle regarding the cost of a future UI. He appeared at the Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement during the week and his opening remarks can be viewed on the Oireachtas website:

Oireachtas Link

He suggests that the figures used by Professor John Fitzgerald the recent extensively reported paper are inaccurate and rather than the €20bn per annum over 20 years suggested in that report, Prof Doyle is suggesting that €2.5bn over 10 years would be required and that after 10 years NI would then run a surplus, (based on a 2% growth rate during that period).

Prof Doyle and Prof Fitzgerald were interviewed on the Claire Byrne show yesterday, good discussion from both sides:

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radio1/clips/22399607/

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122180868#Comment_122180868

The report by the Economic and Social Research Institute’s John FitzGerald of Trinity College Dublin, and Dublin City University academic Prof Edgar Morgenroth was discussed on Newstalk yesterday morning too. Prof Morgenroth explained to Pat Kenny how his and Fitzgeralds report were more middle of the road in their assumptions than Prof Doyle. Neither report takes in to account the loss of revenue / lack of productivity that would be caused by a resumption of violence.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122180812#Comment_122180812

What film crew from North America is that? You are not thinking of the film crew from across the Atlantic who filmed Martin McGuinness ( named the butcher of the Bogside in the article below) who was filmed showing bullets to children, and loading a bomb in to a car : the same car that later exploded in Derry causing a lot of damage and injuring a few dozen people?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13246249/IRA-boss-Martin-McGuinness-car-bomb-documentary.html

Quote "Just days after filming concluded, an IRA delegation was flown to London to hold 'secret talks' with the British Government.

The delegation was made up of IRA Chief of Staff Seán MacStiofáin, Dáithí Ó Conaill, Seamus Twomey, Martin McGuinness, Ivor Bell and Gerry Adams."

Its a good job M16 and their best buddies in NATO, the American security services were able to keep the film buried for 5 decades.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122181384#Comment_122181384

Both you and downcow (who admits to not knowing the detail) have ruled yourself out of conversing on this subject.

You are uninformed and it is clear you will defend the British passionately while totally ignorant of what you are talking about.

Caught out again and again you'll just deflect.

Have a good weekend.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122180868#Comment_122180868

If anyone else omitted what Fitzgerald and Morgentroth omitted there would be salivating going on in Unionist and partitionist ranks to call the report rubbish.

Not so when it arrives at the big scary number.

What Doyle and others have shown is that there are different ways to look at it.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122181401#Comment_122181401

So an extremist Republican like you declares we are ruled out of conversing on this subject. I have provided links. We have asked you questions ; again and again you will just deflect, blame the British yet again, and fail to answer the questions. We do not defend the British passionately. I think we are just fair.

Have a good weekend.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122181493#Comment_122181493

You didn’t know the details of how people died. You were told the detail and you immediately deflected away from your ignorance.
The actions of a charlatan and somebody who will defend the British no matter what.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122180497#Comment_122180497

so you’re ok with war crimes. Clear.

Morally, you’re wrong. The vast majority of people disagree with you.

Justifying the murder of innocent people is never ok.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122180723#Comment_122180723

excellent question? There is no way that question can be taken seriously. It’s a complete false equivalence

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122181384#Comment_122181384

I’m shocked that the man who always said he was in the IRA was in the IRA. SHOCKED.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122181530#Comment_122181530

Thousands of people died. Which people are you talking about?

Bit rich of you to accuse others of deflecting, you are always deflecting. For example, will you answer Downcow's question " Are you one of these people who think that firstaiders should be prosecuted for breaking ribs when they are carrying out CPR?"

Yesterday you were caught out about your claimed TEN YEARS between the IRA border campaign of 1956-62 ( which killed 6 RUC and injured about 40 more ) and Bloody Sunday, as if no deaths or violence happened in between.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122181608#Comment_122181608

These two are basically throwing out anything in order to hide their ignorance of what the British actually did.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122181710#Comment_122181710

I don’t think they’re ignorant. I think they know well, they just support it.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122181726#Comment_122181726

One will defend the British on anything the other is not phased as the British were shoring up Unionist power and supremacy

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122181620#Comment_122181620

And you are not shocked the man who was in video loading the car with explosives - the same car and same reg plate which exploded shortly afterwards in Derry doing a lot of damage and injuring dozens of people - was not imprisoned or anything by the British?

That says it all, especially when FrancieBrady keeps telling us the British were always very nasty people. Instead they give him a weekend away in London, all expenses paid. And do not imprison him of course. There was never any question of the British attacking him or imprisoning him or shooting him or anything, very honourable people. 😉

What do you think of him (the man called the butcher of the Bogside in the article) showing off ammunition etc to children in the film?