Northern Ireland is now Catholic Majority

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700161#Comment_119700161

I dont have a subjective version of it. I quoted what the factual definition of it already a few posts ago .

Considering you think NI as a nation of people what is their unique culture to make them one?

"There is a difference between the terms nation, state, and country, even though the words are often used interchangeably. Country and State are synonymous terms that both apply to self-governing political entities. A nation, however, is a group of people who share the same culture but do not have sovereignty."

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700366#Comment_119700366

I would put it the other way. There isn't a single bit of evidence that a united Ireland would improve democratic rights for anyone.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700381#Comment_119700381

You only have to spend time in Northern Ireland to realise that there has been cultural divergence from the South over the last 100 years.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700377#Comment_119700377

That Stormont, working as badly as it does, is an additional democratic institution to the Houses of Parliament in Westminister, and the abolition of Stormont in a united Ireland is therefore a step back in the number of democratic institutions.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700381#Comment_119700381

Despite my very differing outlook to Blanch, on the NI nationhood question I'd be more aligned with his thinking than yours, which I think takes a very black and white view of Nationhood.

I'd consider myself Northern Irish and Irish, I recognise that there are aspects of NI culture that, while initially seeded from just a mixture of British (particularly Scottish) and Irish cultures has over 100 years come to form an amalgamation that is distinct from both, and not all of it is just rioting, petrol bombs and flegs.

There are certainly areas where I would have more in common with an NI Unionist than an average fella from Cork, or that said NI Unionist would have more in common with me than an average fella from Glasgow.

kazamo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700417#Comment_119700417

Oh I don’t know about that.

Keeping a separate Parliament doesn’t really sound like reunification to me.

if we do this, we go all in, Jeffrey Donaldson in the same chamber as the Healy Rae’s.

Jeff wouldn’t stand a chance 😂 😂

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700417#Comment_119700417

Ah yes, the Houses of Parliament.....where one half of NI has zero representation and where FPTP voting means governments can routinely command huge seat majorities with a ridiculously low number of votes, where a huge number of constituencies are safe seats that essentially make the vote of a huge number of constituents worthless, where the voting decisions of one country out of a four part Union count for more than the other three put together? Where the parties who have been at the helm don't even bother to try get votes in NI because it is so insignificant?

Aye Blanch, the bar is still low enough to step over.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700413#Comment_119700413

Still not answered the question. What is this nations unique culture?

ittakestwo

Is the culture specific to NI or is it the north of Ireland. You are from a border county? In any cultural rather than political view do you think a person from lets say Derry is going to have a similar culture with a person from Antrim but not Donegal?

ittakestwo

Sorry above post was ment for Fionn

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700445#Comment_119700445

Just like sexuality, autism and many other isms and itys, nationality is a continuum with many varieties and variances.

That is one lesson that Putin is learning the hard way. He saw Ukrainians as essentially Russians in a different country, but the reality of the resistance to the invasion should teach him differently. Sure, many Ukrainians might have looked fondly as Russia, may have felt partly Russian but they were also Ukrainian.

The black and white approach - everyone on this island is Irish - is outdated.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700441#Comment_119700441

The reality of different institutions of State from courts to police, from education to health, and democratic institutions both local and devolved have to be recognised in any future arrangement. The cost of change, on top of all the other costs, is too high. That is why I am convinced some form of federal solution is the only way.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700619#Comment_119700619

I suggest you read my post above in response to ItTakesTwo before addressing any further absolute non-sequiturs like this in my direction, Blanch.

Precisely what this has to do with a comment on the democratic deficit in NI/the wider UK, I have no idea.

Given that I have a track record here of firmly defending those with a British identity and wishing that it be protected in a United Ireland (just not through continued partition), and given that I'm someone who is both Irish and Northern Irish so I understand full well that culture and identity exists on a spectrum, the insinuations of your post are verging on the offensive.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700698#Comment_119700698

I quoted the wrong post, I was actually agreeing with your previous post.

Not every time do I disagree with another poster.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700489#Comment_119700489

You're trying to have a black and white discussion about a conversation that exists entirely in shades of grey.

Will a person from Derry have a similar culture to a person from Antrim but not Donegal? Of course not; the many cultures of the British and Irish Islands all have far more in common than they have apart. The logical continuation of your argument would be that because a person from Scotland and a person from Ireland may have cultural similarities that neither culture exists distinctly.

Are there aspects of shared culture between someone from Derry and someone from Antrim that aren't shared by someone from Donegal though? Absolutely there are.

kazamo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700626#Comment_119700626

I disagree, creating different systems just creates confusion and while well meaning, merely prolongs the them and us situation.

I am also hugely concerned about the cost of this UI aspiration, but if we continue with Stormont, do you really believe the Unionist politicians will bother showing up in the renamed House of Parliament on Kildare Street.

in 1922 we faced the same issue and we moved away from the British model.

As for a federal solution, if that’s the route, then it can’t stop at just 26 and 6, it needs to broken down further into probably five federal entities, with more administration, cost and confusion ……..and to what end. Would each entity have its own parliament as well.

We are not big enough and certainly nowhere near organised enough for this to work.

Last year I looked into the Property Tax and how they divvy that up……that’s a complete dogs dinner they made of that. If we can’t get one simple tax heading right, look at the confusion we could do with a federal solution.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700722#Comment_119700722

It is your last paragraph that interests me. Excluding any commonality from being from the same 1921 man made boundary line what is the unique culture that only people from the 6 counties have. I honestly cant think of any. Any culture seems to be a subset of irish or British culture but nothing unique to just the 6 counties.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700867#Comment_119700867

Irish Traveller culture is a subset of Irish culture, do you dispute their distinctiveness?

Gaeltacht culture is a subset of Irish culture, do you dispute their distinctiveness?

People follow the Northern Ireland soccer team, that is a distinct element of Northern Irish culture separate from any aspect of Irish or British culture.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700776#Comment_119700776

We wouldn't be creating different systems, the different systems already exist, and in some cases, e.g. second-level education, are almost impossible to combine into one.

The easiest and cheapest way to a united Ireland is through a federal path using existing entities.

kazamo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700883#Comment_119700883

Keeping different systems doesn’t make us united

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700867#Comment_119700867

I'm assuming you never lived in NI then?

There are lots of small differences that viewed in isolation could just be put down to, your, 'Dublin versus Cork but still Irish' dismissal, but collectively the amalgamation does create something unique. For Christ's sake, you animal's don't even have a soda farl with your fry up.

While anecdotal, I've had many occasions where I've met someone long enough gone from NI to lose the accent but I can pick up within a few minutes of (entirely non-political or geographical) chatting that they're from the North, phraseology, points of reference etc etc.

If one was to take your reductionist view to it's extreme, then an awful lot of distinct cultures would just be dismissed as just a subset of X and Y.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700626#Comment_119700626

I missed this initially, Blanch....but are you suggesting that the perpetual cost of duplicating all of these services indefinitely is lower than the one off costs of integrating them?

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700879#Comment_119700879

No and no to your two questions.

Last paragraph. Following the football team that represents where you live is not unique culture. Unless the sport originates from that culture you cant argue it is unique to it. The only sport that ordinates from NI is GAA by the fact it originates in Ireland. Ie a subset if irish culture.

Most countries are set up to give a nation a sovereign jurisdiction. The UK is made of nations. No disputing english Scotish and Welsh are nations but NI is not. It was not set up to give a NI nation a jurisdiction and did not pretend to either. It was simply splitting the irish nation on do you wont to be in or out of the UK and coming up with a gerrymandered boundary line on that basis

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119701445#Comment_119701445

Northern Ireland is recognised by FIFA as a sovereign nation, do you recognise that?

Northern Ireland has a team representing the nation in soccer, that is an undeniable fact.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119701269#Comment_119701269

It is not one-off costs to integrate them, there are perpetual costs of integrating them. If you overnight increase social welfare rates to the highest level in each jurisdiction, you have those costs for ever.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119701523#Comment_119701523

You said, 'courts to police, from education to health, and democratic institutions both local and devolved', Blanch. Not a single mention of social welfare rates. Are you arguing that your idea of a federal not-exclusionary United Ireland will have an inherent two tier society where those who happen to have been born and live in the formerly occupied part of the country are entitled to different benefits and welfare just because of that? Doesn't sound much like the inclusive utopia you keep pretending it is.

You're a fierce man for demanding costed numbers from people. Can you tell me what the recurring costs would be from integrating courts, police, education, health and demographic institutions both local and devolved?

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119701519#Comment_119701519

Where are you going now? Yes the Irish football association is a member of fifa. Note it is the "Irish football Association" and not the "Northern Irish football Association" that represents football in the north. Kinda further proving the point that Northern Irish is just a subset of Irish by bringing up the football team.

Fifa was actually the one who made the IFA use "Northern Ireland" in international football as both the IFA and FAI used the name "Ireland" to represent their teams untill 1950's which was too confusing. Fifa ordered the IFA to use Northern ireland and the FAI use the Republic of Ireland. You might also note NI play in a green and white kit.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119702332#Comment_119702332

So you are saying that Northern Ireland has been common parlance since the 1950s, and while FIFA may have pointed out the difference, that was 70 years ago, plenty of time for a culture to develop.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119702004#Comment_119702004

Unless you decide that one or other police force, teachers, nurses etc. take pay cuts, then there will be a recurring cost from the increases in pay due to the ones that have their pay increased.

A federal state lets this happen over years rather than overnight.

I have put forward costs on a number of occasions over the last decade. I costed the increase in child benefit and the cost of paying teachers, as there were numbers available for both at the time. If the discussion ever gets serious, I will be happy to supply a very long list of areas where there will be costs.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119702579#Comment_119702579

Let's be very clear, Blanch....your suggested, 'inclusive' NI not only involves a second tier society where benefits are lower, but also lower pay for those who have the audacity to be born in the formerly occupied counties?

Your inclusive society reckons that a nurse in Cavan should be paid more than one a few kilometres up the road in Fermanagh? That a teacher in Belfast should be paid less than one in rural Carlow?

You've a neck like a jockey's b*llocks to be pulling your exclusionary moan on anyone.

My idea of a United Ireland doesn't involve creating a system that inherently pays those from a British/Unionist background worse for doing the same job.

Eith your confidence that you can provide numbers, I'd love for you to provide some comparative numbers for example for bringing former PSNI officers up to the same pay scale as Gardai.....versus duplicating senior leadership, administration, IT, Finance, HR etc etc in two separate organisations. Given that the majority of pay increases would go to rank and file, versus your system that duplicates entire back office and senior leadership functions, I doubt the numbers land anywhere near as convincingly as you suspect. You've put about as much thought into this as a pisshead on the back of a fag packet.