Northern Ireland is now Catholic Majority

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119702655#Comment_119702655

I have been involved in a number of public service back office consolidations. They rarely save money, which is a point I have constantly made throughout my time. They do improve service though.

Take HR, for example, what back-office savings do you think you can make by combining HR? The potential is very limited.

The savings will only really come at the very very top, but they will be more than offset by increases in the ranks.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119703572#Comment_119703572

You've completely ignored the point that you're advocating for a two tier society while having the gall to accuse others of being exclusionary. You've taken a more exclusionary position than absolutely anyone on this thread and seem to be totally lacking in self awareness.

I'll also note the post I quoted contains zero numbers, or indeed any evidence of any sort just your own gut feeling and supposition that of course just happens to support your preconceived ideological position.

Funny that you'd ask about what savings are to be made by combining HR. Anecdotally, my own company completed the acquisition of a smaller company last year and we're currently in the middle of amalgamating the HR function of the acquired business into ours. Almost 50% of the new HR capacity is in the process of being repurposed elsewhere within the business because, as will surprise no one bar those trying to push their own agenda, it takes fewer people to do a job when you don't have two people doing the same overlapping task. We're also making a significant number of per capita savings across the business due to economies of scale factors.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119703656#Comment_119703656

Doesn't work like that in the public service.

https://www.forsa.ie/inoperable-peoplepoint-a-systemic-failure/

Supposed to save €12.5m a year, there have been huge costs as a result of the centre to fail to understand local conditions.

Large company taking over smaller company can leave to savings, but the larger the bureaucracy as in the public service, the more likely that inefficiencies of bureaucracy will actually increase costs.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119703656#Comment_119703656

You are making an assumption that public services, benefits and pay rates are lower across the board in one jurisdiction versus the other. I know that this is a common assumption of the "failed state" posters, which I don't include you in. The reality is that there are huge differences between the jurisdictions and I don't think that there is a single person advocating that any public service, benefit or pay rate should be reduced as a result of a united Ireland. This has two implications. Firstly, there can only be upwards harmonisation. Secondly, following on from the first point, there will be significant costs associated with this.

So not suggesting a two tier society, I am recognising the huge costs associated with upwards harmonisation. The only alternative is that someone will see their social welfare benefit, public service or pay rate reduced.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119703754#Comment_119703754

If public services are run that poorly, all the more reason for wholesale reform.

If the pointless bureaucracy is leading to inefficiencies then we need to get rid of the pointless bureaucracy, not propagate it by doubling down by implementing TWO systems and creating even more bureaucracy.

Beyond, 'well it has always been that way' excuse making, there is no reason that a well run public service can't utilise the same efficiencies of scale that a private company can (in fact given the numbers, it should be much better able to do so), and no reason that a large public sector amalgamating with a smaller public sector can't make the same savings that a large private company amalgamating with a smaller private company can.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119703818#Comment_119703818

The thing is that public service pay is almost universally lower in one jurisdiction versus the other. You're just trying to deflect by suggesting that the upwards harmonisation costs would be anything but almost entirely towards NI. You can dance on the head of a pin all you want, but the fact of the matter is that as I said, you're arguing that a nurse in Cavan should be paid more than one a few kilometres up the road in Fermanagh and that a teacher in Belfast should be paid less than one in rural Carlow.

You are not just recognising the huge costs associated with upwards harmonisation, you're actively advocating for maintaining a partitioned system to avoid that cost. It's your prerogative if you want to take that position, but at least be honest about it. You're advocating for a two tier system where someone in the six formerly NI counties is paid less, not based on merit, productivity, relative cost of living or any other factor but that their particular county was under British rule more recently than yours.

For the record, I don't think that all harmonisation should be upwards; particularly at upper levels we have a great deal of public sector bloat in both states and a need for substantial reform. I'm fully aware that my position would of course be a chill factor for some voters, but this is something I'd advocate for with or without Unification.

ittakestwo

The south has no natural resources over the north yet it is far richer in terms of GDP. Do you ask yourself why one part of Ireland is richer than the other for no apparent reason?

The reason is because the south wins a huge amount of FDI from multinationals. The main reason they come here is because of our low corperatation tax. The EU have confirmed that should there be a UI then it will have the same terms as the roi as does now in the EU. Ie able to have a more competitive tax rate. There is no reason why the north wont "catch up" with the south soon after a UI

Why will the1.9m people that live in one part of Ireland perpetually run a €12bn annual defcit after a UI but not the an equivalent sized population on another part. The whole economy will harmonise after a UI. Aot of people from the north are already beginning to take higher paid jobs in the south. The new WFH concept will probably increase this too.

There will be a one off cost in setting up an all Ireland structure. The cost will be be off set by the fact that none of the UK national debt will be given over with NI according to most economists. London will be happy just to get rid of a 12bn annual burden without demanding it takes some of its debt too so a UI debt to GDP will initially fall as a result allowing some room for a one off payment to set up UI structures.

Podge_irl

The EU have confirmed that should there be a UI then it will have the same terms as the roi as does now in the EU. Ie able to have a more competitive tax rate.

Corporation tax rates are not an EU competency so this is obvious. There are countries in the EU with a lower rate than Ireland, so I wouldn't even say it is the "main reason" - though at this stage there is of course a domino effect.

The general point is right though, there is no reason to assume the economy in NI would not at last be on a trajectory towards that of Ireland. However, the experience of Germany also tells us that this can take decades.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119705344#Comment_119705344

I don't think it would take as long as Germany. First of all Germany was uniting the first world west Germany with the second world East Germany. The gap between them in terms of wealth was far higher than the north and south Ireland. Also Germany is far larger than Ireland. Alot of NI population live in what is considered a border region as it is within 25km of the border . People can easily and are going to the south to work. This not the case in Germany where the major cities like Berlin and Dresden were over 150km from the border. One of the main reasons why NI has preformed better than other parts of the UK since brexit is not because of the the NIP. It is the fact that the south is dragging them up. Belfast is closer to Dublin than Cork Galway Limerick and Waterford city.

Bernie138

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119655689#Comment_119655689

yeah, 'cos that's going SO WELL in Stormont.....