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Bray Air Show - DART Doors forced open following delays and discomfort.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,942 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Walking on active railway line could have much more serious consequences. As we can see the people walking on the lines stopped all trains on the line, what if another train was coming up as they jumped onto the tracks? Then we'd of had much more serious medical situation.

    Over heating is an issue but breaking the doors on a train and getting into a much more dangerous situation is not the solution.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,262 ✭✭✭markpb


    You’re right but it’s irrelevant. People don’t make rational decisions when they’re faced with a solution like that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,915 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    I would dare say there was probably alcohol involved as well.

    Plenty of blame to go around, from Irish Rail to gormless passengers packing themselves in like sardines.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,262 ✭✭✭markpb


    100%

    However, crowd management and the risk associated with it are well understood at this stage and ultimately Irish Rail completely failed to manage the situation safely. It should not have been a surprise to them that there would be high demand yesterday and yet there appears to have been no additional capacity, no extra staff at stations, no preemptive checks that air conditioning was working, etc. When you let a situation get out of control, it’s too late to point the finger at crowds and say that they acted stupidly because you know without any doubt that they will act stupidly and irrationally.

    Go to a capacity match in Old Trafford and watch how thousands of people get to and from the stadium safely by public transport. It’s not hard.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,032 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    I don't think I've seen an 8-piece 8100 since they got the refurb, so I'm not sure if they still can. I definitely saw the originals in an 8-piece formation around 2007 or 2008. They also used to be able to run as a 6-piece with an 8500 but can't now.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 979 ✭✭✭stevedublin




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,032 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    There's an emergency intercom in each carriage.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    There's an intercom next to the doors to communicate with the driver.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,600 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    They can and do. When I used to take the DART every day up until 2018 my train was always a regular 8 car set.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,827 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    Instead of stopping for 5 minutes just outside the station pissing of the public, ask the other train in the station to move up and both trains can be at the station at the same time. Obviously drive into the station slowly for safety reasons.

    That way all passengers can get out at the station and both trains can wait for whatever they are waiting for.

    They keep saying it was 5 minutes, but those trains have been known to wait for a lot longer than that for similar incidents.

    And this carry on about waiting just before Grand Canal Dock for sometimes 10 minutes northbound when there is obviously no train at the Grand Canal Dock station.

    DRIVE INTO THE STATION FIRST AND LET THE GRAND CANAL DOCK PEOPLE OUT, THEN WAIT FOR 10 MINUTES.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,046 ✭✭✭Vic_08




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,880 ✭✭✭trellheim


    Under normal circumstances no, correct.

    In this case though it would not have made a difference. By the look of it the DART In the platform couldnt move until it was empty so whats the one moving up to it gonna do ? same thing - passengers out onto the tracks so no improvement. And now you definitely cant move the first dart with pax on the tracks nearby

    Part of me says controller shouldnt have let the 2nd dart leave Shankill till it had a clear run


    Now we know how long people will wait to self-evac when its this hot with broken AC on a rammed dart



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    The point has been made that this group of people were not used to being on the train or whatever. The question is whether they will enjoy their experience and become more regular travellers, in many cases people do not get an experience that would bring them back. Beyond that, if people have a bad experience then not only do they not travel but they become unwilling as taxpayers to subsidise a service that treats its customers like this. So you have a vicious circle.



  • Registered Users Posts: 791 ✭✭✭CreadanLady


    Yeah but what realistically can or could you do for punishing this tresspass? Take 100 mothers, grannies and small children to court and get convictions? Irish rail want this to go a way and blow over asap. Taking legal proceedings is one sure fire way of inflaming an already disastrous PR situation.

    And in the wider sense of punishing tresspass on the line. It is scarecely even possible. Unless someone is apprehended by Gardai in the act of tresspass , there is nothing that can be done.

    And the legal cost and time and effort involved simply isn't worth the hassle.

    I have tresspassed on a quiet cross country branch line regularly. I just wave at the driver and he usually waves back.

    Shall I expect a day in court now for this admission?

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,915 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Probably not but still doesn't make it ok, you have no business being there.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Are we suggesting a city bound train leaving from platform 1, should move backwards on the line, to accomodate a terminating train?



  • Registered Users Posts: 791 ✭✭✭CreadanLady


    All fair enough, but it is a pleasant place for a quiet peaceful walk away from the roads. Only a handful of trains a day and none on sundays. And there is plenty stand-in room in the verges as the alignment and structures were built to accomodate double track. I love walking there.

    So unless IE are going to haul me in front of a judge for it in the District Court, I will continue to do so no-matter what the rule book or anyone on here says about it.

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,915 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Can you not find anywhere else to walk? There's sound reasons why you should not be there. You may think you know it all, but there may be trains not on the public timetable, possibly machinery as well. Drivers may not appreciate you being there, how are they to know you're not going to jump out in front of them?

    By your reasoning it's fine if I walked on the verge of a motorway or a took a stroll on a building site or a toddle around someone else's property but I know a stubborn person like yourself will of course know better.



  • Registered Users Posts: 791 ✭✭✭CreadanLady


    The way I look at it is this, it is actually safer than walking down the road. A car, truck, tractor or whatever could literally go anywhere if the driver lost control and flatten you and anyone else in its random path. On the other hand, a train even in the absolute worst case if the driver drops to the floor with a massive heart attack, will just stop, or even if fail safes fail, it'll continue along its path on the rails. What it definitely will not do is swerve around the place at random bouncing off the ditches.

    As for jumping out in front of the driver...well how does any car or lorry driver know that some dope isn't going to walk or throw themselves out in front of them on the road? If a driver is that sort of panicky anxiety wracked person wondering what if this and what if that then they shouldn't be driving a train.

    I can see up and down the line for at least 1km in either direction, and if something does come along unexpectedly, well I do have eyes and ears and I can step in to the verge if I am not already there. You know, the same as you would if a car or lorry was passing you by on a country road.

    So I believe it is safer to walk there than walk on the road, but that is not the reason I do it.

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,765 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Well it will only go wrong once....



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭JustJoe7240


    It's not comparable to a car or lorry driver on the road because It's inherently strange behavior to be walking on a train line in the first place. If I, as a train driver saw someone walking down the line I would assume they were going to try to top themselves, as I'm sure others would assume also.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    If you slip and fall onto a road, a car can move around to avoid you and should also be able to stop promptly. If you slipped and fall in front of a train, do you have any idea how long it'll take for it to stop?




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,032 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    That’s news to me! 😊 I’ve never seen an 8 car 8100 set since they came back from Siemens. But I’m not a regular user in fairness.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭zg3409


    To address the jaywalker, regularly people commit suicide on dart line at specific and random points. The drivers may hit the brakes just based on a person near the line and in the Bray case all train traffic was stopped. They may contact gardai to try arrest the person and they may be drunk, on drugs, children etc. I know train drivers even reported people in distress on the other side of fences but in view of train line.


    To address the Bray incident , firstly I would not trust or believe Irish rail. We do have one person here who was on the train. Without a proper investigation how can we be sure the same does not happen next year?

    It's typically a crazy day and the dart is the craziest part. Irish rail should have ensured no trains were packed, they can close entry to stations and platforms to ensure no overcrowding.

    At Bray when a train arrives the road gates are closed, which causes pedestrian, bus and passenger issues. Pedestrians need to cross over dart line to get to air show, but barriers are down to prevent them. Thus the station becomes log jammed, and it makes sense to not allow other trains to arrive or a crush inside the station is likely.

    It sounds like the second train kept going until very close to Bray at which point they had a red light and stopped. Most passengers on the train would be aware they were basically at bray. I can imagine groups of rowdy city centre based teenagers getting excited and not wanting to wait. Passengers cannot know how long in reality they will be waiting. I am not sure they "forced" the doors open, rather pulled the emergency cord and or manually released the doors. Walking on tracks mean trains MUST stop in both directions for safety.

    It would have been reasonable for Irish rail to have a lot of staff on the trains, and at the busiest stations but it sounds like this was not happening. It sounds like they were not prepared for worst case passenger numbers.

    Once passengers on the line lots of trains get stuck, ideally they wait at stations, but the signalling and planning might not have allowed that. More trains may have been between stations, than there were stations to stop at. Even at an earlier station it may be hard for people to exit the train and it may be hard to reload train and get going, especially if no Irish rail staff on hand.

    In terms of air conditioning, even if it worked in all carriages with that many people crushing in, even in winter people may be very uncomfortable. Having been in crushes before it takes very little to go from busy to scary, particularly in an enclosed space. I assume those on following trains were delayed/ trapped for much longer.

    Regarding car traffic the air show has always been crazy, no parking available, cars everywhere, motorway blocked, cars just passing Bray being delayed by 2+ hours. Many cars spend all afternoon queuing and miss the show.

    I wonder is the future of the air show a ticketed event with rail tickets pre-booked and busses laid on from say heuston and red cow with all roads into bray closed? Maybe darts stop at shankhill and wait until Bray is clear, one dart every 30 minutes with pre-booked train tickets only? Run busses from shankhill for every second dart?

    In peak times at other events they close Lansdowne station completely as it becomes impossible to use.

    We are lucky no one died, and people have died in similar incidents. Once a crowd panic it's very hard to stop a crush. If for example someone set off a smoke bomb or a firework, or someone starts pushing hard, it's easy to see how someone could be trampled or squashed.





  • Registered Users Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭thomasj


    Barry Kenny was on liveline earlier and while he did say that it was wrong to get out and walk the line , he did say that given the circumstances he did understand why those that walked the line had chose to do so.

    Post edited by thomasj on


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,915 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    It is very strange behaviour and definitely not to be encouraged, more like what you'd see in India or some developing country, can't be helped though, the poster has already made up his mind that he's right. Stay lucky, champ.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,880 ✭✭✭trellheim


    with IE being shortstaffed and Bray station and level crossing unlikely to change it might be better to stop the DART altogether on air show day as it may not be able to run it safely



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭bikeman1


    The level crossing being put open for pedestrians is a big slow down for the approaching trains.

    Like at Lansdowne Road, the gates should be left down for the whole duration of the event. Pedestrians should then be marshalled around to one of the other access roads such as Seapoint Road and Galtrim Road to access the Seafront. This would allow trains to freely access the platforms. This would then spread the crowd away from an extremely congested area.

    Walking people is a well used method when there is such a crowd in a confined area. You don't allow it.

    They also needed to keep a clear way out of the station at platform 2. While they had staff people were getting blocked in that area, which meant it was slow to exit the station.



  • Registered Users Posts: 393 ✭✭CONSI


    move the airshow to the curragh, plenty of parking and do a Luas and ride from the red cow or citywest..i'd imagine the curragh woudl be far enough away from dublin airport so that it would interfere with airline traffic.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭mikeybhoy


    There's a footbridge over the line right beside the level crossing in Bray I see no reason why the level crossing couldn't have remained closed for the day. Also Bray seafront is not used by any bus routes only reason why buses go down there I'd to get in and out of the small bus garage on Albert Avenue.

    Lansdowne Road is not closed on matchdays Grand Canal Dock closes as the platforms are too narrow. Bray is a bigger station than Shankill so should be better able to deal with large crowds. I'd imagine Irish Rail are having staffing issues similar to other transport operators too.



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