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Bray Air Show - DART Doors forced open following delays and discomfort.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭bikeman1


    I have had a look on Google Maps and the journey planner does not suggest any platforms at Clonsilla for the changeover.

    The connection at Clonsilla for M3 Parkway is a well established connection these days. When you alight at Clonsilla (coming from Connolly), go straight to the footbridge, cross over to the other side and then you will see a train waiting in platform 3 (bay platform) with M3 Parkway on the display. This train waits for the passengers to make the connection and then heads off when everyone is over.

    You would have done similar on the way in from M3. You would have hopped off at Clonsilla, walked to the platform and then hopped on the Connolly bound train when it pulled in.

    A little public transport advice. Be alert, plan your journey, use all the information available to you (station signs etc.), ask someone if unsure and take responsibility for your journey. Far too many people (not saying this is you) are in their own world on headphones / not looking up from their phones and then make a mess with their journey. They then go on to blame everyone but themselves. But that's the way the world has gone these days!



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,331 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    @LXFlyer

    Is there a 'log' in which one could check what time the Maynooth train actually arrived at Clonsilla, and also what time the M3PW train left Clonsilla on the night in question. Whilst the poster is a bit hard to follow, I suspect that in daylight he would surely have noticed the train in platform 3 at Clonsilla.

    @jeffk sorry it didn't work out for you and hopefully it doesn't turn you off using it again for work etc. Just seemed to go wrong at every stage, but generally it does work well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,588 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    @jeffk You were very unlucky to be honest and the trip home sounded like an absolute nightmare unfortunately. I really do sympathise with you, as an hour at Connolly and another at Clonsilla would put anyone off.

    For future info, for train journeys, I would use the journey planner on the Irish Rail website. It does show platforms, and they also have an app showing live info. Also for the Maynooth line, I would certainly double check the timetable that I posted above, given the line operates at lower frequencies.

    As @bikeman1 says Google maps does not list platforms.

    The TFI Journey Planner app and TFI Real Time app are useful for multi-mode trip planning and live bus info.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,262 ✭✭✭markpb


    They have some kind of forced air system with heating and cooling. In my experience, it’s quite good even in warm days.



  • Registered Users Posts: 85,580 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    IR should reimburse all Sunday customers



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,758 ✭✭✭cython



    It's not that simple, I'm afraid. DART is specifically the service between Howth/Malahide and Bray/Greystones, as operated by electrified units powered by the overhead lines. The services running towards Maynooth/M3 are commuter ones, operated by diesel units, and much lower frequency. DART+ West, if/when it is delivered (rumblings in the news this week that it could be operational in 2029, but I'll not hold my breath), will see proper electrified DART services operating on this western line.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,727 ✭✭✭tnegun


    If you can figure out the train ID's involved historical info should be available here https://api.irishrail.ie/realtime/ it should have arrival and departure times for all stations on the route.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,140 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Just to point out, Google maps does have the ability to show platforms for stations, however it only seems to be a select few (wicklow town for example), and it doesn't correlate to what is shown in the official Irish rail app or even doesn't always appear



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,588 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Knowing how platform changes can and do happen, I wouldn’t rely on Google maps for that level of detail anywhere.

    Far better to use the Irish Rail app or even better, station displays.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    It didn't happen at the last air show. It didn't happen at river fest either.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Still trespassers until staff arrived to help de train them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill




  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,646 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    There was 2 darts that arrived at Bray empty due to people getting off the trains on the tracks.

    I was on the platform at 4.45pm on Sunday in Bray heading south to Greystones.

    The digital boards were still displaying greystones bound trains to arrive in 2 mins.

    Announcements stated only northbound trains effected.

    Complete shambles by IE as no staff around to guide anybody.

    RTE/Pulse we’re there filming so my take is that everything was exaggerated for the cameras. Those guys have video footage of everything so the truth should come out in time.

    An RTE girl, yes RTE, not IE told us there was a shuttle train on Platform 2 going to greystones. Despite all the boards saying Platform 3.

    We got on that dart at 5.05pm, the wife, myself, 11yo, 6yo and 15 month baby. We were sweating. We were packed into a corner shoulder to shoulder with other passengers. We had to strip the baby, take tee shirts off the older boys. And that was us in a alerted dart with the doors open. We didn’t leave that station until 5.55pm! 50 mins sitting on a swearing dart not knowing when it would leave so afraid to step off!

    While we were standing there waiting to leave the northbound trains were displaying greystones as their destinations. I can only imagine that people got caught out with that too!

    I can only imagine what the people on the felt on the other trains stuck with doors closed.

    I can confirm that our trains, to and from did not have any AC running!

    Communication was the big let down here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Never trust google. I've had people arguing with me by saying but google says . Im looking at the boards with the correct platform and time and they still ask if I'm sure. You past 3 departure boards from platform 7 to 2. A quick glance at one of them would have told you the right platform.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Not large and not all waiting on the same train.



  • Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭pjcb


    if a train was on fire and people escaped would you call them trespassers?

    Post edited by pjcb on


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road



    if the whole train was on fire, or there was no ability to get from a carriage on fire to one which isn't, then no as that is a genuine emergency situation.

    however the train being a bit stuffy or being unable to wait is not a genuine emergency or even an emergency so therefore hilly is correct in this case.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,682 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Irish Rail said 9 additional services operated for the show in 2022. I don't know if just to/from Connolly number of overall.

    Had a look back at 2018 weekly circular indicates 24 rostered additional services on the Saturday and 28 rostered additional services on the Sunday. I have said rostered for a reason which may indicate certion services didn't operate. I don't think Sunday DART freq has changed in years.

    I can't check 2019 as I don't have it however I suspect possibly the same if not less would have operated. There was even more services for the 2017 show...

    The point is what was scheduled for 2022 was wholly inadquate. I accept drivers might be a major problem but significnetly reduced services and sending 6 cars out is inexcusable. This is one of the biggest failuers of the weekend. I don't think it would have changed events but it didn't help.

    Anyone want to tell us what was planned in the weekly circular this year?



  • Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭WealthyB


    A bit stuffy!!

    We we very luckily on the last carraige of a Dart that got into Bray at 1.10pm. The carraige had no windows, and the aircon was definitely not working. The carraige wasn't full by any stretch, about 15-20 people standing, and it was uncomfortably hot. Luckily we were able to open the doors at each stop along the way to let some fresh air in. I can't imagine what it'd been like if the carraige was packed with bodies radiating heat and no way for fresh air to get in around the carraige.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭JayRoc


    I don't think this attitude is really helpful, and it echoes the disastrous tone of many of Irish Rail's communications about this incident that only served to cause more anger among an already very angry public.


    It's not hyperbole to say that people were in immediate physical danger from the conditions on those trains. To hear people wave it off as "a bit stuffy" is daft and does no one any favours.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,880 ✭✭✭trellheim


    if the whole train was on fire, or there was no ability to get from a carriage on fire to one which isn't, then no as that is a genuine emergency situation.

    Given this type of response , would you need an independent arbitrator sitting in the carriage with a thermometer , to decide that this is finally an emergency and that now if pax asked nicely and pretty please that they might possibly get off ?


    Spot the IE employees posting 🙄



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road



    it's perfectly helpful as it's fact.

    the conditions while uncomfortable on the trains did not constitute an extreme emergency such that people could go tressppassing on a live railway, delaying other trains and passengers and putting themselves at risk.

    that's just fact.

    irish rail have a lot of explaining to do and questions to answer, plenty of issues surrounding the weekend that they are to blame for, but the reality is no matter what they did there would be impatient idiots forcing open doors and going out on the tracks and those idiots are to blame for that.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,590 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    While you are absolutely correct with your advice, I would point out that Google does support real time updates for public transport. See GTFS Realtime. Google has no problem handling such sudden platform and schedule changes in other countries, they aren't operating off just fixed schedules.

    Only in Ireland have I seen such a vast disconnect between what station displays show, versus what ends up on transport apps, Google, etc.

    And of course that is assuming the platform displays are correct, as pointed out above, that isn't always the case.

    Irish Rail has often throughout the years had pretty serious issues communicating with their customers when things go wrong.

    I'd definitely say that Irish Rail and the NTA need to do far better feeding the correct data through to Google GTFS realtime.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road



    yes because i realise a live railway is not a playground and people have no business there unless they are a track worker, emergency services or there is an extreme emergency then i must be an IE employee.

    dispite the fact i have plenty of history of being critical of IE myself.

    right so.

    look, irish rail should have insured their trains were in full health, should have insured they could operate as many services as possible, however people who have no clue what they are doing should not have gone on to a live railway where and when it is very clear they were not in danger but were in discomfort, delaying other trains and passengers.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,588 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I’d still be VERY wary of using Google for rail info. to that level of detail anywhere.

    Rail is so prone to late notice changes that it’s just too risky.

    Across the water thankfully www.realtimetrains.co.uk exists which makes life easier.

    In Ireland I certainly would not use the TFI Real-time app or Google Maps for live rail or LUAS info, but only for the initial planning, as they don’t correlate with the actual live data in my experience.

    Instead I use the Irish Rail app or website and LUAS app.

    Maybe the new TFI app will finally provide accurate live rail and LUAS info, but right now it’s only useful for planning.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,111 ✭✭✭Ger Roe


    His understanding was reserved for the trains that were affected after passengers in the first train had caused the knock on delay situation. He said that the first train had been stopped for 6 minutes - I have used the DART to bray many times, and it often stops short of the level crossing for up to that period of time. The people who left the train at that point caused much longer delays for those passengers stranded in the trains following.

    It is those people in the following trains who had Mr Kenny's understanding - not those who started the incident.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,111 ✭✭✭Ger Roe


    Regarding closing the level crossing : there are many people with restricted mobility who would not be able to climb the footbridge. They are entitled to attend public events too and you can not subject them to a physical challenge in order to access public spaces. Also, I doubt the footbridge could handle the crowd level required.

    I know there are other access points to the seafront, but they are further away and again you could cause considerable inconvenience to people with restricted mobility, or people with young children, or pushing prams etc, if you closed the route that is designed and intended to be easiest access for the majority of people who arrive into the town, by train.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,590 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Ah now, the alternate route is literally just an extra 100 meters from the station entrance, versus the crossing!

    This is taking the "think of the elderly/disabled" to a silly level. The level crossing should be kept closed for events like this.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,590 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    "I’d still be VERY wary of using Google for rail info. to that level of detail anywhere.

    Rail is so prone to late notice changes that it’s just too risky."

    I’ve travelled on rail all over the UK and mainland Europe and always use Google Maps. I admit I always double check the station screens, as being Irish I assume it maybe wrong, but I honestly can’t think of a single time that Google Maps was wrong. It really is a great and valuable tool.

    The point is Google Maps is real time in most countries and it reflects exactly what is shown on the screens as it should.

    That is why so many Europeans just use Goggle Maps when they come here and get caught out like Jeff here when it doesn’t match, it just isn’t normal.

    Can I ask, do you genuinely believe that Irish Rail / NTA supplied the correct real time data to Google, but Google just didn’t bother displaying it?

    I seriously doubt that. In software engineering we have a concept of "Garbage In, Garbage Out". Google just displays whatever real-time data that public transport operators supply to them. If that data is garbage, then Google can’t do much about it.

    Having watched the development of the real time systems here in Ireland for years, there is clearly issues with Irish Rail / NTA delivering accurate real time data. The information systems seem poorly integrated.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,588 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I think by my comment earlier it was pretty clear that I do not believe that live info is on the TFI app or Google maps for either LUAS or Irish Rail, hence I use their own apps and website.

    But if abroad, I would still check station departure boards, particularly for platforms - call me old fashioned but it’s just that extra bit safer.



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