Bray Air Show - DART Doors forced open following delays and discomfort.

Dravokivich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119382981#Comment_119382981

It wasn't IE's fault though. As much as I know it isnt going to happen, something really needs to be done to people who misuse the emergency systems on the train.

Our driver even tried to explain what would happen, but people just threw obscenities at him over the intercom. They didn't care. They just wanted to do what suited them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119382976#Comment_119382976

I can well believe that. Unfortunately very many that day would have been unused to the Dart & its little slow-downs approaching bottlenecks, and if one person panics it can be infectious. But we live in an era where •everything• is someone else’s fault, and be abdicate ourselves from all personal responsibility.

However I do believe that perhaps better communication might have helped hold people on the train, eg “passengers, just advising you we are holding here until the platform at Bray becomes vacant, it’s a busy day with a little hold-up, but we’ll get moving in 5 to 10 minutes”, then a refresher every 5 minutes to say eg “trains are beginning to move out of Bray so bear with us and we should get moving shortly”.

Personally I wouldn’t have got off simply as my knees would not have taken the getting down onto the track very well! I don’t know how everyone seemed to do it tbh, especially the frail grannies etc that were mentioned in sone tweets.

As for the tweets questioning why toilets and water were not available on board, these are clearly folk very unfamiliar with the DART and who have not used a train in some years as you can’t even get a cuppa tea going to Cork.

Dravokivich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119383102#Comment_119383102

The driver tried to, but everytime he did, there was a barrage of obscenities personally directed at him over the intercoms. As you said, they weren't used to the way trains are routed. But they just flat out didn't care.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119383109#Comment_119383109

I kind of guessed what the atmosphere might have been on board, however on Twatter someone accused me of being a Dublin 4 elitist looking down from my tower at the peasants 😂😂😂 Just glad I decided not to go today, I’d a particularly bad feeling about it this time as people in general have become more feral… myself included!

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119382185#Comment_119382185

I've had people pass out and/or get sick on my regular commuter train often enough. The overcrowding in small spaces makes it airless and very unpleasant. I actually switched back to using the car and cancelled my annual tax saver because the train was so unpleasant.

Charles Babbage

It seems that Irish Rail have the wrong sort of public. How inconvenient.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119382691#Comment_119382691

im 1000% in agreement with this.

“cars = bad so, so you all need to go and use an underfunded and poorly ran shítshow of a service that mostly isn’t fit for purpose.”

Atlantic Dawn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119383132#Comment_119383132

Even in the winter months they can't get the basics right, they put the heat up full despite the fact that everyone arriving at the station to board the train arrives ready for the weather of the day so jackets, multiple layers etc. You don't sit in your car with heat up full wearing a jacket.

Polar101

Just for next time, might be a good idea to try and schedule the air show and All-Ireland Final to different dates. Dublin public transport works pretty poorly during weekends, and now there were two huge events on.

I was trying to get a 145 bus down to Bray around noon, but the traffic along the quays was at a complete stand-still with taxis/coaches/cars bringing in people for the GAA match. And loads of people trying to get to Bray too. One bus passed me in 30 minutes, but it was full. Gave up eventually, I do like airshows but getting there was too much hassle.

Pinoy adventure

i was on one of the trains that got delayed with kids.the heat was unreal.

that was only half the problem as Dublin bus was caught off guard and couldn’t manage the situation either.

3F19622B-FDB9-41FE-9875-52A846B73E11.jpeg

That’s the end of the que for buses

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119382890#Comment_119382890

Walking on active railway line could have much more serious consequences. As we can see the people walking on the lines stopped all trains on the line, what if another train was coming up as they jumped onto the tracks? Then we'd of had much more serious medical situation.

Over heating is an issue but breaking the doors on a train and getting into a much more dangerous situation is not the solution.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119383221#Comment_119383221

You’re right but it’s irrelevant. People don’t make rational decisions when they’re faced with a solution like that.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119383356#Comment_119383356

I would dare say there was probably alcohol involved as well.

Plenty of blame to go around, from Irish Rail to gormless passengers packing themselves in like sardines.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119383425#Comment_119383425

100%

However, crowd management and the risk associated with it are well understood at this stage and ultimately Irish Rail completely failed to manage the situation safely. It should not have been a surprise to them that there would be high demand yesterday and yet there appears to have been no additional capacity, no extra staff at stations, no preemptive checks that air conditioning was working, etc. When you let a situation get out of control, it’s too late to point the finger at crowds and say that they acted stupidly because you know without any doubt that they will act stupidly and irrationally.

Go to a capacity match in Old Trafford and watch how thousands of people get to and from the stadium safely by public transport. It’s not hard.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119382708#Comment_119382708

I don't think I've seen an 8-piece 8100 since they got the refurb, so I'm not sure if they still can. I definitely saw the originals in an 8-piece formation around 2007 or 2008. They also used to be able to run as a 6-piece with an 8500 but can't now.

stevedublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119383109#Comment_119383109

Since when can passengers use the intercom?

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119383722#Comment_119383722

There's an emergency intercom in each carriage.

Dravokivich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119383722#Comment_119383722

There's an intercom next to the doors to communicate with the driver.

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119383704#Comment_119383704

They can and do. When I used to take the DART every day up until 2018 my train was always a regular 8 car set.

10000maniacs

Instead of stopping for 5 minutes just outside the station pissing of the public, ask the other train in the station to move up and both trains can be at the station at the same time. Obviously drive into the station slowly for safety reasons.

That way all passengers can get out at the station and both trains can wait for whatever they are waiting for.

They keep saying it was 5 minutes, but those trains have been known to wait for a lot longer than that for similar incidents.

And this carry on about waiting just before Grand Canal Dock for sometimes 10 minutes northbound when there is obviously no train at the Grand Canal Dock station.

DRIVE INTO THE STATION FIRST AND LET THE GRAND CANAL DOCK PEOPLE OUT, THEN WAIT FOR 10 MINUTES.

Vic_08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119383823#Comment_119383823

That is not how railways operate.

trellheim

Under normal circumstances no, correct.

In this case though it would not have made a difference. By the look of it the DART In the platform couldnt move until it was empty so whats the one moving up to it gonna do ? same thing - passengers out onto the tracks so no improvement. And now you definitely cant move the first dart with pax on the tracks nearby

Part of me says controller shouldnt have let the 2nd dart leave Shankill till it had a clear run

Now we know how long people will wait to self-evac when its this hot with broken AC on a rammed dart

Charles Babbage

The point has been made that this group of people were not used to being on the train or whatever. The question is whether they will enjoy their experience and become more regular travellers, in many cases people do not get an experience that would bring them back. Beyond that, if people have a bad experience then not only do they not travel but they become unwilling as taxpayers to subsidise a service that treats its customers like this. So you have a vicious circle.

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119383221#Comment_119383221

Yeah but what realistically can or could you do for punishing this tresspass? Take 100 mothers, grannies and small children to court and get convictions? Irish rail want this to go a way and blow over asap. Taking legal proceedings is one sure fire way of inflaming an already disastrous PR situation.

And in the wider sense of punishing tresspass on the line. It is scarecely even possible. Unless someone is apprehended by Gardai in the act of tresspass , there is nothing that can be done.

And the legal cost and time and effort involved simply isn't worth the hassle.

I have tresspassed on a quiet cross country branch line regularly. I just wave at the driver and he usually waves back.

Shall I expect a day in court now for this admission?

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119384060#Comment_119384060

Probably not but still doesn't make it ok, you have no business being there.

Dravokivich

Are we suggesting a city bound train leaving from platform 1, should move backwards on the line, to accomodate a terminating train?

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119384450#Comment_119384450

All fair enough, but it is a pleasant place for a quiet peaceful walk away from the roads. Only a handful of trains a day and none on sundays. And there is plenty stand-in room in the verges as the alignment and structures were built to accomodate double track. I love walking there.

So unless IE are going to haul me in front of a judge for it in the District Court, I will continue to do so no-matter what the rule book or anyone on here says about it.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119384641#Comment_119384641

Can you not find anywhere else to walk? There's sound reasons why you should not be there. You may think you know it all, but there may be trains not on the public timetable, possibly machinery as well. Drivers may not appreciate you being there, how are they to know you're not going to jump out in front of them?

By your reasoning it's fine if I walked on the verge of a motorway or a took a stroll on a building site or a toddle around someone else's property but I know a stubborn person like yourself will of course know better.

CreadanLady

The way I look at it is this, it is actually safer than walking down the road. A car, truck, tractor or whatever could literally go anywhere if the driver lost control and flatten you and anyone else in its random path. On the other hand, a train even in the absolute worst case if the driver drops to the floor with a massive heart attack, will just stop, or even if fail safes fail, it'll continue along its path on the rails. What it definitely will not do is swerve around the place at random bouncing off the ditches.

As for jumping out in front of the driver...well how does any car or lorry driver know that some dope isn't going to walk or throw themselves out in front of them on the road? If a driver is that sort of panicky anxiety wracked person wondering what if this and what if that then they shouldn't be driving a train.

I can see up and down the line for at least 1km in either direction, and if something does come along unexpectedly, well I do have eyes and ears and I can step in to the verge if I am not already there. You know, the same as you would if a car or lorry was passing you by on a country road.

So I believe it is safer to walk there than walk on the road, but that is not the reason I do it.

Flinty997

Well it will only go wrong once....

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119385501#Comment_119385501

It's not comparable to a car or lorry driver on the road because It's inherently strange behavior to be walking on a train line in the first place. If I, as a train driver saw someone walking down the line I would assume they were going to try to top themselves, as I'm sure others would assume also.

Dravokivich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119385501#Comment_119385501

If you slip and fall onto a road, a car can move around to avoid you and should also be able to stop promptly. If you slipped and fall in front of a train, do you have any idea how long it'll take for it to stop?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGI1WOl2eeA

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119383814#Comment_119383814

That’s news to me! 😊 I’ve never seen an 8 car 8100 set since they came back from Siemens. But I’m not a regular user in fairness.

zg3409

To address the jaywalker, regularly people commit suicide on dart line at specific and random points. The drivers may hit the brakes just based on a person near the line and in the Bray case all train traffic was stopped. They may contact gardai to try arrest the person and they may be drunk, on drugs, children etc. I know train drivers even reported people in distress on the other side of fences but in view of train line.

To address the Bray incident , firstly I would not trust or believe Irish rail. We do have one person here who was on the train. Without a proper investigation how can we be sure the same does not happen next year?

It's typically a crazy day and the dart is the craziest part. Irish rail should have ensured no trains were packed, they can close entry to stations and platforms to ensure no overcrowding.

At Bray when a train arrives the road gates are closed, which causes pedestrian, bus and passenger issues. Pedestrians need to cross over dart line to get to air show, but barriers are down to prevent them. Thus the station becomes log jammed, and it makes sense to not allow other trains to arrive or a crush inside the station is likely.

It sounds like the second train kept going until very close to Bray at which point they had a red light and stopped. Most passengers on the train would be aware they were basically at bray. I can imagine groups of rowdy city centre based teenagers getting excited and not wanting to wait. Passengers cannot know how long in reality they will be waiting. I am not sure they "forced" the doors open, rather pulled the emergency cord and or manually released the doors. Walking on tracks mean trains MUST stop in both directions for safety.

It would have been reasonable for Irish rail to have a lot of staff on the trains, and at the busiest stations but it sounds like this was not happening. It sounds like they were not prepared for worst case passenger numbers.

Once passengers on the line lots of trains get stuck, ideally they wait at stations, but the signalling and planning might not have allowed that. More trains may have been between stations, than there were stations to stop at. Even at an earlier station it may be hard for people to exit the train and it may be hard to reload train and get going, especially if no Irish rail staff on hand.

In terms of air conditioning, even if it worked in all carriages with that many people crushing in, even in winter people may be very uncomfortable. Having been in crushes before it takes very little to go from busy to scary, particularly in an enclosed space. I assume those on following trains were delayed/ trapped for much longer.

Regarding car traffic the air show has always been crazy, no parking available, cars everywhere, motorway blocked, cars just passing Bray being delayed by 2+ hours. Many cars spend all afternoon queuing and miss the show.

I wonder is the future of the air show a ticketed event with rail tickets pre-booked and busses laid on from say heuston and red cow with all roads into bray closed? Maybe darts stop at shankhill and wait until Bray is clear, one dart every 30 minutes with pre-booked train tickets only? Run busses from shankhill for every second dart?

In peak times at other events they close Lansdowne station completely as it becomes impossible to use.

We are lucky no one died, and people have died in similar incidents. Once a crowd panic it's very hard to stop a crush. If for example someone set off a smoke bomb or a firework, or someone starts pushing hard, it's easy to see how someone could be trampled or squashed.

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-rail-bray-chaotic-scenes-5825099-Jul2022/

thomasj

Barry Kenny was on liveline earlier and while he did say that it was wrong to get out and walk the line , he did say that given the circumstances he did understand why those that walked the line had chose to do so.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119385606#Comment_119385606

It is very strange behaviour and definitely not to be encouraged, more like what you'd see in India or some developing country, can't be helped though, the poster has already made up his mind that he's right. Stay lucky, champ.

trellheim

with IE being shortstaffed and Bray station and level crossing unlikely to change it might be better to stop the DART altogether on air show day as it may not be able to run it safely

bikeman1

The level crossing being put open for pedestrians is a big slow down for the approaching trains.

Like at Lansdowne Road, the gates should be left down for the whole duration of the event. Pedestrians should then be marshalled around to one of the other access roads such as Seapoint Road and Galtrim Road to access the Seafront. This would allow trains to freely access the platforms. This would then spread the crowd away from an extremely congested area.

Walking people is a well used method when there is such a crowd in a confined area. You don't allow it.

They also needed to keep a clear way out of the station at platform 2. While they had staff people were getting blocked in that area, which meant it was slow to exit the station.

CONSI

move the airshow to the curragh, plenty of parking and do a Luas and ride from the red cow or citywest..i'd imagine the curragh woudl be far enough away from dublin airport so that it would interfere with airline traffic.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119385799#Comment_119385799

There's a footbridge over the line right beside the level crossing in Bray I see no reason why the level crossing couldn't have remained closed for the day. Also Bray seafront is not used by any bus routes only reason why buses go down there I'd to get in and out of the small bus garage on Albert Avenue.

Lansdowne Road is not closed on matchdays Grand Canal Dock closes as the platforms are too narrow. Bray is a bigger station than Shankill so should be better able to deal with large crowds. I'd imagine Irish Rail are having staffing issues similar to other transport operators too.

bk

MOD: Moving @jeffk post to the right thread:

"Well the old too good to be true saying came true

Got out to Bray fairly ok

Coming back (take away the "organizers/Irish Rail) went pear shaped

7 or so on a dart

Got into conolly just after 8 then google decides to tell us platform 2, a worker seen us lost then says no platorm 7 where we where

55 minutes to next train, so 920 or so onto the next train

Got into Clonsila 950, looked up google again with platfrom being wrong and next train 2210, which comes and goes, ring SOS thing, wrong platform and next train 2250

So it took us as good as 4 hours too get home"

Furze99

Incompetence in Irish Rail management - what's new?

But at least there is public transport in Dublin for people to moan about.

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119385916#Comment_119385916

Apologies on landsdowne road, a quick Google shows it was closed for one match as a trial.

There is a big bus presence right in front of Bray dart station so lots of busses go this way.

I expect the whole seafront was full of people so root cause of jam may not really have been railway crossing but crowds on far side of railway crossing causing backlog all the way back to the platform. Keeping barriers down with good signage for pedestrians to go elsewhere may work, the root cause I think is uncontrolled unticketed event (even free tickets) and uncontrolled numbers on dart, followed by a trigger event that then triggers more delays. It sound like 2 dart trains southbound were "evacuated" between shankhill and bray. Was that it? It's normally chaos all day on the dart on airshow day anyway.

Below photos is a good few hundred metres north of Bray station and it's at a bridge over the river so hard to keep away from the tracks. It's probably hard to hop over a fence to get away from the track so passengers are forced to walk for 10 minutes.

Reports clothes removed from babies due to heat in carriages

I think last photo might be fake. The red arrows were practicing on Saturday but we're weather grounded on Sunday.

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119385882#Comment_119385882

I'd hardly call it strange behavior but I think it needs to be looked at in context. I, walking a scarcely used cross country single track branch line in a rural location of a sunday afternoon is a very different kettle of fish to walking along a busy double tracked DART line in the Dublin suburbs. The former is benign and the I would admit is idiotic and pretty dangerous.

It is reasonable to fear that someone on the tracks in Dublin is a strung out suicidal junkie about to top themselves or fall under the train wheels as a result of a drug and drink induced stupor. It is not reasonable to assume that someone walking a branch line on its last legs in a rural location with a dog on a lead is going to voluntarily inject themselves into the train's undercarriage.

Anyhow, regardless of opinions contrary to mine, the threat of Gardai, and the fine print of the IE rule book, I have been walking that line on occasion for the last 25 years or so and I will continue to do so for the next 25, nomatter what anyone thinks.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119386014#Comment_119386014

Yeah the buses go down to the DART station but they don't cross the LC and go down the seafront. The 145 was terminating on Quinnsborough Road instead of Ballywaltrim I'm not sure why as the roads were not closed as the 45a, 84 and 184 were unaffected.

The airshow has run fine in previous years without the need for tickets as does the St. Patrick's day parade.

pnott

There was a technical issue on a train earlier in the day. That caused a knock on effect where trains were running too close together and leaving large gaps between services. This combined with a possibly larger than expected crowd lead to very large crowds accumulating at stations. Irish rail admitted that 10 stations were unstaffed yesterday. Staff should have been deployed to all stations and should have limited the numbers allowed in stations to prevent trains and stations becoming dangerously overcrowded. The airshow started at around 14:45 around the time the dart was stopped just outside Bray. Possibly the frustration at the delays caused by a technical fault, the overcrowding, the heat and the fear of missing out on the action caused passengers to open the doors. That of course resulted in the dart behind near Shankill being stopped. What should have been a manageable issue earlier in the day was allowed to snowball out of control. Thank god no one was seriously injured or worse.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119386060#Comment_119386060

Knock yourself out oul fella.

Economics101

The regular weekday timetable has trains between Bray and Dublin every 10 minutes. If all trains in the couple of hours prior to the air show were 8-carriage this would have given a capacity of at least 5,000 per hour. If fact I think that the maximum capacity of an 8-car DART is over 1,000. What was the interval between trains last Sunday? Was the problem due to the length of time it took to disembark a full train and clear the platform of people for the next arrival?

trellheim

Remember there was an All-Ireland on as well. Although at another place on the line it had to be slowing things down as well.

jeffk

Why didn't they close bray dart station

Then run buses to the next station either direction

4 buses, 1 being loaded while the other is being unloaded and repeat

No tickets were checked/tapped getting on the trains as in a rush to get people moving.

So if they ran buses then people had to tap/check tickets they wouldn't have lost that money (and could use some to cover driver's etc for say two hours)