EVs are worse for the environment (and other EV related myths)

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121982356#Comment_121982356

Ireland could suck up a lot of Co2 if we had any forest left, in fact , Ireland is the place to come to see the impacts of total deforestation , it should be a tourist attraction to see the damage of removing all your forest and the impact it has, we could do a lot more if we were concerned about Co2. It should be thought in schools and collages around the world about how we destroyed it all, could have replaced it and didn't. Sure there's little woods of crap spruce trees for industrial purposes but that's hardly an effort to restore natural forest.

Anyway, interesting link about the geothermal reserves of lithium, it does appear to be a step in the right direction to make electric cars actually green lol.

Slutmonkey57b

For me there were always two simple questions to the EV question, because I'm a nerd.

1. Why are people waffling on about running out of fossil fuels and the environmental harms, when an ev battery requires tons of lithium and rare earths? Do people know what a lithium mine looks like? Do they care? (No because the people working there are in the third world and they don't count).
2. What happens when your battery pack reaches its fixed EOL point? (You have a massive bill and have doubled the environmental harm of your eco friendly choice).

I think the answer to #2 and to a lesser extent #1 are part of some of the change in attitude towards EVs. If you want to get political changing to ev from fossil fuel just shifts the balance of power from the middle east to China which is hardly an improvement.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996048#Comment_121996048

Same as all the tech you use in ICE and Mobiles and Phones is mined. Its only improving. Oil isn't.

Mostly they don't have a EOL. But they can be repaired recycled.

You realise most of the metal in you ICE and other devices is already coming from China. Has done for decades.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996048#Comment_121996048

1. Tons of lithium is in reality some tens of kilograms per battery. Which rare earths are required in the battery? As far as I know there are none.
2. Reusing the metals in the old battery is much cheaper than mining new metals.

prawnsambo

Also, people seem to think "rare earth" means a very rare (i.e small total amount) mineral. In fact many of them are extremely plentiful and it's the high cost of extracting them that makes them rare.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996048#Comment_121996048

With all due respect, if you consider yourself a nerd, you need to educate yourself more on the materials in use in EV, ICE, laptops, phones etc etc

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996048#Comment_121996048

When a question is a statement, it's not a question. Don't put a question mark on a statement and call it a question. A nerd would know this.«mod snip»

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996048#Comment_121996048

Now ask the question whether we should allow mining for cobalt and lithium in Ireland and you'll quickly get shut down here on boards, there's lithium, lots of it on the Carlow Wicklow border but local opposition has meant licences can not allow mining at this time, same with cobalt. The hypocrisy on boards here is astounding.

Sure we can have all this provided we don't destroy out land or our water supplies. Same as we can criticise Brazil for deforestation when out own forest has been depleted hundreds of years ago, absolutely boggles the mind. If we were to replant our "natural" forest in Ireland we'd probably have the effect of removing hundreds of thousands of ICE cars and vans off our roads.

Snowdonia in Wales has more trees than all of Ireland. We should be ashamed of ourselves !

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003641#Comment_122003641

There are no current State mining licences or leases for lithium mining, nor have any applications for a State mining licences or leases been submitted to the Department of Energy.

No licenses have been applied for yet, only prospecting licenses which haven't found commercially exploitable deposits.

https://www.irishtimes.com/environment/2024/02/26/minister-rejects-criticism-for-issuing-prospecting-licences-for-lithium/

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122716698#Comment_122716698

Sounds like you're listening to too much of that Eamonn Ryan Gobshyte !

Do you actually know how they get the lithum and cobalt and the environmental damage that does in the process ?

Alkers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122723861#Comment_122723861

And fossil fuel extraction, refinement is good for the environment?

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122723894#Comment_122723894

FFS I was teliported to this thread again !

Never said oil industry was good so why promote EV if it's not good, why try fix one issue while causing another ?

Markcheese

Like most things - some good - some bad ,

Ev's obviously require fuel , so the fuel mix for the electric grid counts a lot , obviously no emissions at point of use - ironically mass adoption of off peak charging EVs suits having a lot of nuclear on the system ,

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122724059#Comment_122724059

There's some cool nuclear tech emerging and I believe the future will include a lot more nuclear.

Batteries leave a trail of environmental damage behind it's not just about emissions once they end up in the car, then no one can see or cares about how the battery got in the car, they just think they're great helping save the earth, as Eamonn Ryan would say they're doing their bit for the environment lol.

Markcheese

Battery tech is only really beginning, but still everyone in electric cars doesn't solve the problem of too many cars , - and the increasing size of cars ,

The recycling of batteries and motors is only starting as well ,

I think the biggest annual user of cobalt is still the oil refining industry ,

Eleusis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122723861#Comment_122723861

I am quite aware of it, but thanks for assuming I don't know anything.

Before buying my EV and home battery, I thoroughly researched both sides of the environmental argument. I paid particular attention to sources of information I was reading and tried to only listen to reputable sources. After doing this, I came to my own conclusion.

Now for my own assumption of you. By the sounds of it you have seen a headline somewhere and jumped on it as gospel. You also seem angry and bitter and determined to let everyone here know that.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122724070#Comment_122724070

There's been a big shift in battery production, LFP batteries had largely been written off for automotive use, but are increasingly the first choice for mass market models. Performance models still generally use some variation of an NMC battery, though in the near future LMFP (Lithium-Iron Phosphate with a Manganese cathode) are likely to be commercially available which will displace even more EV cobalt use.

A big reason for the increase in LFP usage (up to 40% of EVs globally) is that the core patents for the technology expired in 2022, when you couple this with the high cost of cobalt and its supply chain issues you can see why battery makers are moving.

There are also sodium-ion batteries entering the market, these are still developing and look to be used for now in cheap big cars, as the material costs are low, but the energy density isn't as good as LFP.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122724202#Comment_122724202

You Thoroughly researched.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122724279#Comment_122724279

" but the energy density isn't as good as LFP."

So what's good about this when the 2 key issues are range and recharge times ? Sodium might be good for storage that's about it.

Markcheese

Its all change ,really . sodium batteries are unlikely to take over in automotive use because of that lower power to wait ratio ,

but it probably will find a lot of use in stationary use ,

The motors and batteries developed for battery electric trucks will probably find a place in hybrid diesel electric trucks and buses , if it's for motorway use there may be overhead wires like trolley buses of old ..

Electric cars have limitations , so does every thing else .. the materials used are still novel ,as petrol was pre first world war ,

I remember finding a petroleum distillate can in an antique shop , that was how petrol was distributed,and sold in chemist shops , a very expensive and inefficient distribution system, it improved though

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122724607#Comment_122724607

Range and rapid charge time requirements are an issue that is very personal for every driver, there's no one set of requirements for every person. Diversity of battery choice is good for everybody. It's like when you buy an ICE car you have a choice between petrol/diesel and a choice of engine sizes giving consumers a choice of battery characteristics allows you to spend the right amount of money for your use case.

Lower cost battery chemistries like sodium-ion are one way the industry is moving, the other is batteries such as the updated Qilin battery from CATL that's targeting a 6C rate. That means it's capable of charging to 80% in about 10 minutes which should suit the requirements for those who won't compromise for charging time on long journeys. I don't think we're at a stage where there is one perfect battery technology every option is a balance of cost, performance, and durability.

One thing that can be said about battery EVs is that the technology in the underlying batter has progressed in the last 10 years, I don't think we've reached a plateau yet.

Mad_Lad

Green stickers, what a load of Bollocks, EV battery production is not green ! lol

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122810732#Comment_122810732

No car production is green. Lol. The difference is tail pipe and particulate emissions.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122811201#Comment_122811201

lol yourself, the issue is not just tail pipe and emissions ffs.

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122811631#Comment_122811631

Is it not? Please enlighten us so.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122811631#Comment_122811631

are you 12?

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122811631#Comment_122811631

But taking in to consideration the manufacturing and the emissions from making the electricity, electric cars and vans are better for the environment, it's well documented. Ice cars are manufactured in a factory too.

Don't get me wrong, I love ICE cars and I've had ones for fun, still have one in the driveway and intend to get another one but the prophets are written on the subway walls at this stage.

The biggest scam, of which a lot of us were vocal about during it's implication was dieselgate, how that got through was a joke.

Red Silurian

Had a colleague say to me yesterday "Did you know that EVs are actually worse for the environment than petrol or diesel cars"

This made me laugh, hard, and now we're not talking

Genuinely I thought she was joking!

Any thoughts on how to rebuild bridges from anybody whose been in the situation before?

Not made with hands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122814432#Comment_122814432

EV's are not "better for the environment"

EV's are "not quite as a big an environmental disaster" as ICE would be a better description.

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122815147#Comment_122815147

They're certainly better for people. Deaths from air pollution are significant. Estimated to have caused 4,000 premature deaths in London in 2019 alone.