FEC committee & final report - **UPDATE post 442**

judestynes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120410525#Comment_120410525

ya think? Because I certainly do and I think well beyond the parameters of it's just criminals.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120414188#Comment_120414188

And you'd know why Jude,and I also know why you think this way too. Might I suggest as a friend?You are in a deep enough hole with these two posts.I'd suggest you quit digging.

Grizzly 45

Another school shooting only they other day in Nashville. That perpetrator wasn't a criminal up to that point, It was someone in a state of mental crisis who had easy access to a firearm because numpty's keep electing a$$holes who's policies or lack of policies are creating the mental crisis in the 1st place and won't pass proper gun control because of "your rights" they got no problem removing voting rights or work rights though have they?

REALLLLYYYYY???? Just an utter coincidence of course!!!But if you live off a diet of MSM Kool Aid and don't look a little bit deeper as to whats going on it is easy to simply blame "The guns"

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2023/03/yesterday-trans-radicals-threatened-violence-in-tn-over-trans-and-drag-queen-legislation-today-trans-person-reportedly-shot-and-killed-6-people-at-nashville-tn-christian-school/?fbclid=IwAR3fPpX0IarHrGJ-h9h2Lc3i4SollxT8KlbTRj8RxZDjlbsY_gysVp70QLI

Little bit of an update. looks like Mommy of this "girl" was also a gun control activist. How did THAT work out for them? Anti-gun Mom doesn't notice her"daughter" has two "assault rifles"and a high-cap handgun? But this is somehow the fault of the 2nd amendment?

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2023/03/mother-of-transgender-nashville-school-shooter-was-gun-control-activist-shared-petition-to-keep-guns-out-of-schools/?utm_source=Email&utm_medium=the-gateway-pundit&utm_campaign=dailypm&utm_content=2023-03-28

So also going by your theory of its all the Yanks fault,can you explain then the two shootings in Hamburg in recent weeks? Germany,with its ultra-strict gun laws and psychological assessments for any newbie wishing to acquire a handgun and mandatory 12 month training and participation in a gun club , before you are signed off as clear to posses a firearm? So obviously Germany's federal states are influenced by US gun rights too?

Grizzly 45

Anyhow,on a more revelant subject to us all here in Ireland.

it does seem that AGS are trying it on again for a long time in recent years.Was talking to the FUNI legal eagle last night and he has been involved in at least three firearms license cases in the last two months.No details were given [obviously], but seem to be in the Sunny South East. So maybe its someone trying to be a hardass down there and jumping the gun so to speak,but lets take it as a blip on the radar.

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120415324#Comment_120415324

Wonder if it is the same fella that recently threatened to seize firearms whose renewals went over 3 months, even if it was the gardai's fault?

itisnotgrand

I thought the gards had wisened up to the fact they lose these cases. Was this in relation to restricted or unrestricted guns? Or nv? Or what

hiddenmongoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120414197#Comment_120414197

Yes, I do, your post is clearly both ignorant and uneducated.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416479#Comment_120416479

He didn't say and I didn't ask. As obviously a thing about client confidentiality and active cases might be a factor.

garrettod

Anyone know if the members of the FEC are being paid, and if so, on what terms?

I'd expect that all public appointments are paid based on the civil servant scales, for example - but these roles are unlikely to be directly comparable given they are likely to have only been part time etc.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120417459#Comment_120417459

This was when the term was only 6 months:

The fee for the Chairperson is €8,978 per annum, paid on a pro rata basis. For ordinary members, the annual fee is €5,985 per annum, paid on a pro rata basis.

But definitely paid.

Edit - link to the expressions of interest page for the FEC: https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/4218e-minister-of-state-james-browne-seeks-expressions-of-interest-for-appointment-to-new-advisory-firearms-expert-committee/

Grizzly 45

Bit of an update on FEC.Gotta laugh at the deescription of what was the pro gun side in fEC.

And a little bit of info .The meeting minutes for the FEC have to be released on or before the 20th of April.Apparently, there ARE more detailed minutes than the bullet points that we have been issued. Based on that response from the Minister, expect the official FEC recommendations before that date.

hiddenmongoose

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2023-03-29/ open the pdf on the right, go to page 266

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421174#Comment_120421174

Am I correct in reading that, that all SACF licences issued after 18 Sept 2015 are now revoked, as the amendment to stall and wait for FEC report was defeated?

Cass

Yup. They won't back down from the cut off date but the amendment to delay until discussion with the relevant bodies has been done was defeated.

It can be done later in the legislative process such as when the bill returns to the house, but for now it's a dead issue. It's not a major blow, the delay being defeated, so long as discussions are held later.

Again though, they will not back down from the ban cut off date.

Rifter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421308#Comment_120421308

Is there any possibility of a legal challenge to the cut off date from a representative body with an individual as a test case?

Im not au fait enough with legal matters but surely you can't retrospectively ban a piece of legally owned piece of property based off a statement by a long gone Minister for Justice?

Cass

You can and it was done with pistols when the statement was made in Nov of 2008 but legislation was not enacted until June 2009.

There is, afaik, not limitation on the length of time between statements and their enactment in law, but if there is to be a legal challenge the "only" aspect I could see would be the severely long timeframe between statement (in Sept 2015) and enactment (No date yet, but seemingly sometime in 2023). So 8 years.

The counter to any suit would be there was ample time for people between those dates to know and not get such a gun so it'll be an uphill struggle. Worse part being there can be no legal challenge until it's a law/act. There is not challenge process for a bill.

I'll also add the caveat that I'm far from a legal expert and even if I were I would not be giving legal advice on the forum.

Rifter

I don't own a SACF, and tbh don't ever see myself looking to licence one, but, and its easy for me to say as I won't bear the costs, I do feel that Representative Bodies should get out ahead of this, once it is enacted, and mount a legal challenge.

It is a firearm, but it is also a legally obtained piece of property that is now retrospectively banned.

Whats to stop government from banning any other piece of property, not even by way of legislation, but essentially through a statement.

BSA International

Legal challenge paid for by who? I reckon there's only one organisation with the funds, the NARGC. How many affected are members of that?

The retrospective ban was done with c/f pistols so can't see why it won't be done again with s/a f/b rifles.

Rifter

Thats why I said Representative Bodies, obviously an individual would struggle to fund a challenge.

IMO Shooting Sports will be slowly eroded if every time something like this happens it goes unchallenged.

It was SACF pistols, now its SACF rifles... whats next?

You(and by You I dont mean you BSA) could say there won't be a next, but there will be a next.

When the FEC report comes out, and I do hope I'm wrong, I'd bet theres a further tightening on our ability to pursue shooting sports, be it target shooting or hunting.

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421434#Comment_120421434

It's a legal distinction but the statement doesn't ban anything and such retrospective laws don't apply to criminal issues so it's not everything that can be done by this process.

Also, again only an academic subtlety, but the rifle is still your property you just cannot possess or use it. So their argument will be to sell it or surrender it. Easy for them to say when they haven't invested a minimum of €1,500 up to €3,500 for one.

This has been on the cards since 2015 and why it took the manifestation of the ban to spur action is beyond me. There should have been talks and meetings if only between the various shooting groups, in preparation for the eventual bill/act. That includes seeking to re-establish the firearms committee.

BSA International

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421488#Comment_120421488

I do agree with all above. I remember when we were lucky to have 1 x rifle and 1 x shotgun......I reckon we're heading back to those days again, sooner or later 😞 As long as we are a minority with little to no political clout it's inevitable.

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421459#Comment_120421459

No single body can finance this as they'll seek funding from their members and the NARGC won't as there are less than 100 affected by it and with no class action abilities in Ireland it'll be a case by case scenario.

Grizzly 45

Well,i enquired and will say it again.This could be stopped by a high court judicial review of FEC and how it was put together.BUT we are looking at between 30 to 50 K. So do we hold fire until we see what other "recommendations" come out of this report and include the SACF ban in the package?Or do we press on on a single issue?I'll bet you any money IF any org willing to challenge this will be going for.if they can be bothered that is.

BSA International

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421519#Comment_120421519

Exactly! & the government know that too 😞

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421527#Comment_120421527

It's a lot of money for little return as the report will be issued and even if a court action were taken and faults found the content of the report will be known to the Minister and his intent is well known given his creation of the FEC and the criminal justice bill.

I'd, excuse the pun, keep your powder dry until there is something actionable and then the FEC can be included.

Grizzly 45

I like the way they keep emphasisng there will be consultations with firearms stakeholders within 6 months[Simon Harris].

Will it ber meaningful consultations or will it just be the usual "We have to listen to you peasants because we need to be seen doing a sham working of democracy,giving you yokels a say,but we have already made up our minds?"

Also, again only an academic subtlety, but the rifle is still your property you just cannot possess or use it. So their argument will be to sell it or surrender it. Easy for them to say when they haven't invested a minimum of €1,500 up to €3,500 for one.

Who can you sell it to? You can't sell it to NIor the UK as they are prohibited there. Maybe Germany if you are lucky and can re-export it, just make sure it has German or other proof marks as otherwise that gun cant be sold publically over there until in proof. [France and Italy its too complicated with the paperwork] So you'll get pennies on your euro for a gun dealer having to reproof the gun.

Same if you sell it to a vulture posing as a gun dealer here. They can't sell them and will give you pennies on the value so they can shove it into their private collections. Same as happened with the CF pistols in many cases.

There is another option,but I'm not discussing it on boards here where aGS/DOJ are reading up possibly.It's going to be a poor 2nd place for those SACF owners.All 39 KNOWN according to the DOJ own figures released. So all in its good time.

itisnotgrand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421242#Comment_120421242

Did they vote as a party or individual? I know now who is on our side and who lost my vote

garrettod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421648#Comment_120421648

Don't hold back - let them them know that they've lost your vote, and perhaps more importantly, that you'll campaign against them, lobbying your friends and family to also vote against them!

garrettod

Talk about arrogance... 😡

This little upstart really needs to be made redundant, and all of his parliamentary colleagues told exactly why!

LONG DRAG

Ok in Layman's terms, what exactly are they looking to ban, sorry just up to speed with this.

TheEngineer1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120422255#Comment_120422255

Basically a ban on any semi auto rifle that isn't .22lr, .22 mag, or .17hmr.

Based on the FEC minutes we could also be seeing restrictions on silencers, and night/ thermal vision rifle scopes.

There is also talks of confining shooters to the land permissions they used to apply for their license, and confining the use of your gun to the purpose for which you sought it for (ie, if you got a shotgun for hunting, you wouldn't be allowed use it for clay target shooting)

LONG DRAG

Thanks Lad👍

Grizzly 45

Slight but IMPORTANT correction Engineer!

Basically a ban on any semi-auto rifle that isn't .22lr, .22 mag, or .17hmr. That was licensed post-SEPT 2015.

There is also talks of confining shooters to the land permissions they used to apply for their license, and confining the use of your gun to the purpose for which you sought it for (ie, if you got a shotgun for hunting, you wouldn't be allowed use it for clay target shooting)

When you think about this. I'm utterly puzzled by what they are actually trying to achieve here??? Every, single, gun that we own has to be "good reasoned" before a license is granted. So if you put down for your shotgun and at the moment shooting clay pigeons,is accepted Defacto under game and vermin shooting good reason.Which you would put on the form anyway...What does this achieve?

Ditto for permissions/property that you hunt on. You have to put down lands that you own/hunt over/are a guest, agent,invitee,etc,or club membership. It's there already in your original application...What would this achieve further?

Its not like we have free state land [bar the foreshore perhaps?] where we can range far and wide with our guns in the 1st place,as this isn't the US,and its unheard of in most of Europe.

It impresses me that this was some ministerial fukwitt asking a question he/she hadn't a clue on the application process and threw that into the FEC for an answer.

Cass

September 2015 is the date.

Grizzly 45

Cheers Cass.

J.R.

Minister Browne statement on publication of reports of Firearms Expert Committee

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/d1647-minister-browne-statement-on-publication-of-reports-of-firearms-expert-committee/

"I did not, however, wish to delay the publication of these reports, which I know have been the subject of considerable interest in the shooting community. In the interests of transparency, I am also publishing in full the minutes of the Committee’s nine in-person meetings.

Without wanting to pre-empt the consultation process, I believe that there is a great deal in these reports that will be welcomed by stakeholders and I am looking forward to seeing the responses and in due course to engaging personally with interested parties."

J.R.

Firearms Expert Committee

Second Report

4.6 RECOMMENDATION

Page 24

Grizzly 45

251693_d82a083a-ffeb-4a0c-afe4-db2a06ba2fe8.pdf

Brought to you by FUNI.Youre welcome

251694_6fb1f42e-549d-4ec0-a179-d8ef77b39cc0.pdf

Grizzly 45

Part one is a partial train wreck and also has some good points as well.

Part two sofar is a complete and utter trainwreck with a plane crash on top of it! If you have a substantial number of firearms[unspecified what number is unspecified] Recommended you get gun dealer level of security inc CTV and timelock.

Game clubs to become registered like gun clubs. Cumpulsory insurance policies for all firearms applications.Training,refresher training for people who have years of experience....LADS WE ARE GOING TO BE FUKED...BADLY.if we don't get off our holes and start moving heaven and earth to stop some of this lunacy.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421648#Comment_120421648

They voted along party lines. It's a whip system so if a FF/FG/GP TD from Carlow decided that this legislation was a pile of shyte and decided to vote against their own party's instructions, they'd 'lose the whip' and essentially be suspended from the party. All FF/FG/GP TDs voted for it and all opposition TDs voted against it.

hiddenmongoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120424282#Comment_120424282

Its stealth ban, no cap on number of firearms but you will need a firearms dealer level of security, they dont even state for what amount of firearms...no restriction on where you hunt but you must have it written , oral permission is not good enough and if stopeed without written you could lose your licence, 90% of my permissions are verbal, farmers dont like written permission, it will also essentially stealth ban visiting your friend for a days hunting.

NPWS stating thermal is dangerous as you cant ID animals, or tell the difference between a small bird up close or a big animal far away, what thermal are they using? thermal now you could count the hairs on a fox.The Report states one commitie member diagreed stating Thermal allowed for IDing targets but this was disregarded. And that high end thermal could fall into the wrong hands!! Jesus wept lads.

NV only if you can prove no other device suitable..how do you prove a lamp is not suitable to a super that doesnt want to issue NV.

Lots of reference to training, thats a money racket and I wonder if a certain FEC member will be offering that facility. Our own screwing us again.

Lads be under no illusion this is an attack and needs to be dealt with seriously and as a united front. Just because you dont own a semi or thermal..Look at the way they are just banning or stealth banning items, they will keep at this till we have nothing left. No consultation until its too late and a token gesture.

Read the report, it states ''however no evidence was provided by an Garda Siochana to support this view''.. yet they still went ahead and reccommended you need security the same as a dealer. Completely ignoring evidence and pushing ahead with Brownes and the guards agenda.

We need stand as a shooting community and push back on this utter attack on our sports and property. It is completely biased, unfounded and political theater at best, agenda driven with an axe to grind and possible financial gain at worst

TheEngineer1

Summary of recommendations by the FEC;

Semi Auto Center Fire Rifles: No Consensus. FEC Members have presented individual views on suitability for licensing to the minister

Center Fire Pistols: No Consensus. FEC Members have presented individual views on suitability for licensing to the minister

Rimfire Pistols: Majority of FEC recommend a review on mag capacity. Majority of FEC suggest an increase in mag capacity to 10 rounds. AGS disagree and want to keep the 5 round limit

Short shotguns: FEC recommends a legal barrel limit of 45cm and overall length of 90cm

Short rifles: FEC recommends legislation to allow legislation to shorten rifles. Recommends surveying rifles in the state to establish a minimum legal barrel length.

Airsoft & Paintball: No regulation changes discussed

Air rifles & Air pistols: FEC recommends relaxing licensing and storage requirements

Firearms styled on assault rifles: FEC recommends defining an assault rifle better in legislation. 3 members suggest excluding visual appearance from legislation. AGS wants to include visual appearance in legislation

Licensing reccomendations;

-Online Licensing

-Review of individual licenses for each firearm (ie, issue one firearm license instead for all firearms?)

-Review allowing RFDs to make like for like substitutions on the holders license without needing new applications to AGS

-New license card with photo

-Extend hunting permits to align with the duration of firearm licenses

-Centralization of license applications

-Establish non-judicial appeals mechanism

-Letter of intent to refuse issued to applicants prior to license refusals to allow applicants to provide further info that may impact decisions

-One FEC member suggested reviewing reloading laws

Clay targets: Framework to expand authorization of clay target shooting (align with pistol & rifle shooting)

Limiting the purpose for the use of firearms: I don't really understand the "limiting the purpose" recommendations?

Locations & circumstances: FEC seems to be recommending requiring written permission to hunt on lands

Inexperienced hunters: FEC seems to be suggesting that they be required to hunt with experienced hunters (compulsory training license or similar to car driving "N" plate perhaps?)

Hunting clubs: FEC suggests compulsory membership of a hunting organization

Number of firearms one may possess: No recommendation but maybe more security requirements for large amounts of guns

Silencers: No changes - but some funny wording about ear protection that I don't really like

Thermal scopes: FEC proposes a ban

Night vision scopes: FEC proposes using these for professional use only or only with proper training?

Training & qualifications;

-Range training for first time firearm applicants to agreed national standard

-Night time shooting training program for night shooters?

-Minimum number of hours at a range for firearm license holders so license to be valid and eligible for renewal

RFDs: Different licenses for RFDs and Gunsmiths

Cass

Thanks for the above. Saves a lot of reading.

Grizzly 45

Short shotguns: FEC recommends a legal barrel limit of 45cm and overall length of 90cm

Now a EU standard across the union since 2017 ,bar here of course.

Short rifles: FEC recommends legislation to allow legislation to shorten rifles. Recommends surveying rifles in the state to establish a minimum legal barrel length.

Sounds like a lot of unnecessary work when they have an EU directive to work off?

Firearms styled on assault rifles: FEC recommends defining an assault rifle better in legislation. 3 members suggest excluding visual appearance from legislation. AGS wants to include visual appearance in legislation

AGS still being thick about this,despite being slapped in the dist courts on this point multiple times. Amazing no one on this committee mentioned this fact,form does not follow function.still trying to bring back the "Idontlikedelookodatnow" clause.

Licensing reccomendations;

-Online Licensing

Good,means having to rebuild the PULSE system tho to accomadate.have they money for that?

-Review of individual licenses for each firearm (ie, issue one firearm license instead for all firearms?)

Liscense the man not the gun.Good

-Review allowing RFDs to make like for like substitutions on the holders license without needing new applications to AGS

Good,if also applicable to restricted firearms.Would sort out the CF handgun swop matter.

-New license card with photo

Won't happen, unless they change the license format. If you add a pic to our current format,it would look too much like a Garda warrant card.[Not that many people know what one looks like in the 1st place] So too open to abuse.

-Extend hunting permits to align with the duration of firearm licenses

Good/bad?Seeing our hunting season is pretty much Sep1st to Feb 28th PA.Does that mean a license is only valid for 6 months?

-Centralization of license applications

Good,IF it is only dealing with license applications.

-Establish non-judicial appeals mechanism

NOT GOOD! This will be used as another blocker in the application process and delay licenses further! As it stands if you have no satisfaction,you can take the Super directly to the Dist court, and let a judge decide. With this you will have to probably go thru this process before you could go to court.As we have seen with FEC, what's the betting the people appointed will be, political appointees, anti-gun ex Gardai, chronically understaffed that they will probably deal with a dozen cases per month if we are lucky,and will be so slow anyone will give up on trying to appeal a decision? This is one that MUST be killed!With fire!!!

-Letter of intent to refuse issued to applicants prior to license refusals to allow applicants to provide further info that may impact decisions

Point being?Apart from creating more paperwork for AGS/gun owner?Usually a phone call can sort that out these days.Why fix something that ain't broke?

-One FEC member suggested reviewing reloading laws

Nice but wont happen as that's another big tin of worms

Clay targets: Framework to expand authorization of clay target shooting (align with pistol & rifle shooting)

Thats the end of flappers and charity shoots so.Even if the lead directive doesn't kill them.

Limiting the purpose for the use of firearms: I don't really understand the "limiting the purpose" recommendations?

Still trying to figure that out too

Locations & circumstances: FEC seems to be recommending requiring written permission to hunt on lands

Pretty much have that already

Inexperienced hunters: FEC seems to be suggesting that they be required to hunt with experienced hunters (compulsory training license or similar to car driving "N" plate perhaps?)

Who trains the trainer.What makes you an experienced hunter qualified to teach a newbie?Will you need to be cleared by aGS for working with minors/children?Awkward and will need a lot of work.

Hunting clubs: FEC suggests compulsory membership of a hunting organization

Pretty much are mostly NARGC clubs around the country?So benefit?Proably looking at the point of view of insurance on an individual gunowner

Number of firearms one may possess: No recommendation but maybe more security requirements for large amounts of guns

VERY DANGEROUS Talking about gundealer levels of security [IE timelocks and CCTV]for a "substantial amount"[not specified] of firearms!! Why not simply go for a point where you need a genuine safe once you reach the specified number of substantial firearms?

Silencers: No changes - but some funny wording about ear protection that I don't really like

Thermal scopes: FEC proposes a ban

Unenforceable and ridiculous as technology has moved on again with clip on to day scope devices that can be bought from China or East bloc countries?

Night vision scopes: FEC proposes using these for professional use only or only with proper training?

Sounds half assed like the thermal and the silencers proposition.

Training & qualifications;

-Range training for first time firearm applicants to agreed national standard

-Night time shooting training program for night shooters?

HMMMMM Wasnt a certain individual on SCovi and late of FEC suggesting such awhile back?Someone with Min Browne's ear??

So well then cant they train us to use thermal and night vision,that "only military personnel use and have difficulty using!2 or some such Bullshite? Dear God if they are going to base our shooting off the national drivers license centre,going on how ineffective that organisation is in getting people to sit their licenses and pass rates...

-Minimum number of hours at a range for firearm license holders so license to be valid and eligible for renewal

Doing what?shooting,yakking and drinking coffee? Who is going to verify and count your scores that you actually shot out there to qualify.its a massive logistical endeavour between a rifle range,and the aGS.

In fact it sounds like someone went and read up on the German system and got it arse over tit!

RFDs: Different licenses for RFDs and Gunsmiths

About the only sensible thing in the whole part two.

TheEngineer1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120424970#Comment_120424970

I think the aligning hunting and gun licenses thing is more like your deer hunting license would be valid for 3 seasons with your gun license rather than having to apply yearly as is the case now

Cass

While only a report of recommendations it's very worrying reading.

Some of it is either unworkable or unenforceable. The land permissions issue is one that stands out to me. Like most others I have more permissions on a verbal agreement with one or two outright telling me they won't give it in writing. So do I lose that permission by forcing the land owner to sign a bit of paper?

The "for purpose" point will finally put to bed the debate about what you apply for and what you use it for.

The training bit is yet another attempt to monetize something that has always been free. I'm concerned about vested interest groups once again pushing for this.

Same with the night shooting training. One member of the FEC supposedly representing shooting sports called for the outright ban of night shooting so I'm wondering where this idea came from.

The thermal/NV thing was always going to come back and bite people in the ass. Too many don't know the laws and like with pistols between 2004 and 2008 the number of them being used/bought shot up so quick it was going to raise a flag.

I'm also concerned that only one member of the FEC opposed the proposition on them. We had two reps so it should have been two against.

So much more to unpack which no doubt will be discussed in depth over the coming days/weeks.

Grizzly 45

And some Breaking news !!!

Fabian Connolly was in contact with FUNI. He wishes to state that he does NOT stand over this report,as there were some aspects that he wanted to be included in the report which he was assured would be and these two reports do not have his approval.He emailed Browne on these matters and was not even given a courtesy reply.

https://www.facebook.com/FirearmsUnitedIreland/

mud dog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120425006#Comment_120425006

Does he have proof of this ?? Copy of the email ???

bmmb88

AGS making sweeping claims again but with no statistical backup

hiddenmongoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120425108#Comment_120425108

But what is worse is when they admit they have no evidence the committee still went ahead and recommended stricter security..almost as if there was an agenda ..