FEC committee & final report - **UPDATE post 442**

smmember20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119861872#Comment_119861872

OMG: Amendment to legislation to retrospectivley ban semi auto CF rifles just makes no sense, grandfathering those prior to 2015 even makes it worse, simple question what is the fuppin problem.

Minister fitz acted on advice from AGS who at the time were certaninly discreditied on all aspects of firearms legislation pertinent to lawful licensing.

I dispair at the police state attitude of politicians and servants of the people, what AGS says must be true, OH my where has that landed us in the past present and not to mention the future.

2015 to 2022 7 years not a single security or public safety issue and the legislation is published to make firearms purchsed and licenced worthles

Now we know the target of AGS were the ugly and totally lethal .223 AS AR style rifles, but what about the folks who legitimatley participate in M1 carbine matches, historic rifles like the M! Garand that individuals purchased for not small money.

If the **ckers want AR style rifles let them have them bur for god sake let common sense prevail and preserve opportunity to access hsitorical firearms

I see they sorted Garda firearms training access to ranges etc..........................

What a load of non sense

Where are the lobby to ensure this does not go through.................ops I forgot so much about who did what when for personal glory scuppered any sense we had in lobbying for common sense approach to firearms licencing

itisnotgrand

“These proposals are aimed at balancing public safety and the interests of licensed firearms holders. The new Authority will be best placed to make an objective and independent assessment as to whether we continue to allow certain firearms to be licensed and result in a more transparent licensing system. In the meantime all persons who currently hold licences for 0.22 inch rim fire calibre handguns can apply to have those licences renewed.”

in the meantime

• This is alarming as it shows how they are thinking about handguns so as Cass just said previously about SACF being 40 people well ok fair but if they retrospectively try to ban 22 handguns too then it’s a lot more people. It’s all very depressing reading

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119862655#Comment_119862655

I know many will roll their eyes at me rehashing this but as long as it's asked the answer will always be the same.

When the so called sports coalition proposed in February 2015 that a cap be out on all semi auto rifles (among a host of other ridiculous and unworkable scenarios) the Minister, already wanting those type of firearms gone due to the bullsh*t coming from America, took the bit between her teeth and moved forward with a proposed ban (in September the same year) having, what she could only imagine was, the support of the shooting community behind her.

So add that to the list of reasons I have above about lobbying jot working. Our "own" are worse than those who stand opposed to us.

This ban serves no function. The low numbers it effects only highlight the LACK of proliferation of these types of firearms so public safety is not the objective, the removal of undesirable firearms is.

Cass

but if they retrospectively try to ban 22 handguns too then it’s a lot more people

They cannot do so, at least not from today, back. This ban and the 2009 pistol ban was applied retrospectively because it was announced it was coming. No such announcement has been made regarding other pistols or any other firearms ( yet) so any announcement would only be applied retrospectively from the date of an announcement.

The retrospective nature of these laws is actually limited in that it cannot make something that was legal, illegal. For example if bank robbery was legal today and a law was passed next week making it illegal you could.notnbenprosecuted retrospectively for robbing banks last week, once the new law comes out.

This is why we have grandfathering. They cannot ban something that was legal before a specific date. If they could all pistols and all rifles would be gone and it's at this point we move from refusing to license to having to pay compensation.

itisnotgrand

I see from my reading of the 2015 ministers comments I was getting a different interpretation that “in the meantime” meant that there will come a point where those of us who are renewing currently will be unable to do so and this so called “Authority” will have the decision to not renew ours. However from your explanation Cass I can see it meaning that they will bring in a 08 style ban but this time finish what they started and ban all handguns period.

Not sure what or who or why the ministers/AGS are so anti gun? criminals have and will have access to firearms with or without any legislation!

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119862655#Comment_119862655

Ah once again "lets throw, (take your pick) CF pistols/all pistols/CFSA rifles/AR RIFLES" under the bus, and they won't come after the rest of us. This shows your true colours and the fact that you are prepared to sacrifice what you don't have, just to placate those you call " the **ckers".This idea is why we are where we are today, divided and conquored.

Cass

Make no mistake she wanted a ban and said in her 2015 statement that she would introduce a temporary cap on the licensing of SACF rifles while this authority done their review. The problem there is such a cap is illegal as you cannot prohibit the licensing of any gun without legislation to support such a prohibition.

So they are not infallible in their actions. Perhaps she did consider trying to slowly get rid of them by refusing the licenses but with the courts having a say since 2009 and the persona designata status moving, solely, away from AGS my refusal would have to be based in good reason and the initial granting of the license would make that nigh on impossible.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119862655#Comment_119862655

AHHH...Here we go and guess what? This was going to be predictable as rain in Ireland.

Now we know the target of AGS were the ugly and totally lethal .223 AS AR-style rifles, but what about the folks who legitimately participate in M1 carbine matches, historic rifles like the M! Garand that individuals purchased for not small money?If the **ckers want AR style rifles let them have them bur for god sake let common sense prevail and preserve the opportunity to access historical firearms"

Quite frankly...FUK YOU! and your M1 Carbines and Garands and how much they cost you, or anyone else with this attitude!.😡😡😡. We are now ALL in the same damn boat that has been leaking water for the last 7 years and now you discover it's sinking and you want to throw others to the sharks to save your own miserable hide.😡😡😡😡

Well, it seems reality has now popped out of the toilet and bitten you in the ass.!Well here's another bit of news for you. There are more AR-style rifles and owners in this 38 number post-2015 in this group affected, with rifles that cost TWICE as much as classic Garands and M1carbines...

So sorry... This is the AR lifeboat only... You are on your own, and you just put a millstone around your own neck for any sympathy for you or any of the Classic boys/dealers thinking the same way with the above posts... Happy swimming FUDDS!!

Grizzly 45.

tonysopprano

Well put Grizz

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119863027#Comment_119863027

It wasn't going to fly post the DC court cases in Limerick in 2012/13.The judiciary had found favour in 98% of all appeals cases, and it would look like the Govt changing the law to suit itself. Might have gone differently if the EU had voted on a EU wide ban on these guns post-Paris massacres, as they would have had an EU directive to hang it on.Nor did the favourable Dail public inquiry do anything for their case of banning stuff.

From reading Fitzgeralds' statements This looks like a typical "Compromise and be all things to all men" statement. A lot,that I think the minister knew she wouldn't be able to deliver on or would have to as her term of office would be over and let her kick this particular can down the road,as is common in Irish politics.

Ban future SA rifle licenses post-2015... A deal with AGS/DOJ keeps them happy. As it is a clearly stated DOJ,EU and UN policy of "Reducing the number of arms in civilian hands!"ESP anything that might put civilians on par with Govt forces. As well as the fear of proliferation of them in civilian hands in Irish society!" Would be very damaging to someone's political career.

Firearms Arbitration Authority, along with reviewing reloading,etc. A sop to us, and a good delaying mechanism to prevent anyone from taking future cases to the Dist court and embarrassing the govt further. Review reloading...Why when there is legislation there in place for it? Been promised since Enda Kenny was elected ...Wont happen.

Review of the Garda licensing procedures etc...Improved 100% since they got Harris as a Commissioner, and a lot of the old boys club of Supers and chiefs were put out to pasture on the golf course.

"22pistol proliferation"didn't happen the same as the SACF proliferation didn't either [38 SACF licenses between 2015 and 2021 going by official DOJ figures...] I Wouldnt say .22 pistols are much higher.

Simple reason, unlike with the CF pistols going from 0 to 1200 plus in 12 months back then,it was much more regulated by the time we got to the .22s post the mag capacity High court challenge,and the approved Olympic style only "list.A pre requisite of being a club member,travel distances and cash outlay has put IMO a lot of the "I want one cuz I can" types off applying for such.

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119862655#Comment_119862655

Seriously?

Edit - In fact my signature is quite poignant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9ZSOlreQw

Grizzly 45

Always one

BSA International

So 38 people ignored what minister said, some fobbed it off here as BS, then told us it was all sorted, now they realise they were wrong ........ hard to feel sympathy for them. These firearms were always going to be contentious to Garda and even "Joe Public".

I went through f/b pistols fiasco. Learned my lesson then. I'd have loved an M1 Garand but after 2015 announcement and my previous experience with 2008 pistol announcement I didn't bother. This will never stop. PTB may tolerate 22 b/a rifles and 12g o/u shotguns as an end game. It states you can reapply for your pre 2015 f/b s/a rifle licence. Same happened with f/b pistols post 2008. People reapplied and lots were refused and some took costly court cases.

This is not an endgame scenario ......... this deciding what we can/cannot have and for what........ that's how they are going to bring us back to b/a 22's and s/s 12g's .......

itisnotgrand

How many .22lr pistols are licensed in the Rep of Ireland? Any guess?

Munsterlad102

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119863592#Comment_119863592

IIRC there were about 1,200 licensed in 2019 so probably on the region of 3,000-4,000 with the 3 year licenses.

Munsterlad102

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119863027#Comment_119863027

Just out of curiosity, did she ever mention a permanent ban on CFSA rifles or just “temporary cap”? Would this even make any difference if she hadn’t?

Munsterlad102

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119862655#Comment_119862655

AGS will ban whatever firearms they can. Sure look at the 1972 temporary custody order that effectively banned everything other than bolt action 22s and double barrelled 12 gauges. You have to be naive to think that AGS are ok with an M1 carbine and not ok with an AR-15. All they see is a military rifle, whether that’s accurate or not.

Minister Fitz didn’t act on advice of AGS, she only realised CFSA was legal when Europe was f*cking around with proposed bans on 2015. She tried to ban them outright without compensation but didn’t know that was illegal. AGS just harp on about random firearms and how suited they are for drug murders. Sure they were saying that high capacity shotguns and low powered handguns were suited for murder, despite already banned or grandfathered firearms being favoured. In short AGS aren’t instigating this, they’re merely capitalising on an opportunity to restrict our sport. They’d rather we have air soft guns than what were legally permitted.

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119864063#Comment_119864063

Yes, she specifically said that the intent was to ban the further licensing of SACF rifles and the temp cap was meant to stop the licensing of them until legislation was drafted. However the cap was illegal so came to nothing.

And no, difference. The end goal was the same and has been achieved.

Cass

Minister Fitz didn’t act on advice of AGS,

She took advice/counsel from AGS, the working groups and the secret proposal from the sports coalition whose chairman is currently sitting on the so called expert panel.

Couldn't make this up, ya really couldn't. The guy that called for banning these sits on the panel, NOW, and is meant to be a representative of the shooting community.

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119863592#Comment_119863592

In the region of 2,200 iirc.

itisnotgrand

Trying to picture the next situation where minister is told by a persuasive Anti gun person that there’s X amount of 22 pistols + Y amount fb/cf pistols in the country….. Ah then I can defo see “the proliferation of firearms act 2023” being drawn up already. plus our friendly Waterford political friend chipping in again no doubt will help push it onto the agenda

Cass

Do you realize that the majority of harm done to our sport over the past 16 years has been initiated by groups within the shooting community?

So who needs anti gunners. We're doing a top notch job of fecking it up ourselves by allowing these people unchecked freedoms in their actions.

itisnotgrand

No I didn’t realise that. From my observations irl it’s Old vs New and it’s a mindset not an age thing. Exhibit 1 above: M1 carbine is good but AR 223 is bad. I read that post a few times and I’m still in disbelief. The holistic viewpoint is missing.

BSA International

Fair few 22 pistols out there so.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119864126#Comment_119864126

He is called Austin Deasy from Waterford. Thankfully,not in power in any shape or form,but is wheeled out like an old political relic by MSM to spout his nonsense,as they do with Bertie Aherne and John Major when the need arises. Why they think some yesterday's man is relevant to a topic in current affairs is beyond me...

But just remember ONE thing folks.ALL our restrictive legislation/bans have come from politicians in one party here FIANNA FAIL!!!

1972 Tempoary custody order Dessie O Malley Min for Justice Fianna Fail

1990 Offensive weapons act Ray Burke & willie O Dea FF

2006/08 Misc criminal Justice provisions act mk 1 Dermot Aherne Min for Justice and already avowed anti-gun ownership Fianna Fail.

2022 Misc criminal justice provisions act mk 2 Helen Mc Entee& James Brown Min for Justice and state seconded to dept of Justice Fianna Fail.

Vote who you want.But on that point alone,I'll never vote FF again.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119864162#Comment_119864162

Shows when the chips are down which rats start coming out to try and save "their " exclusive sector of the sport. Common enough problem and should be noted and not helped at all by those who were affected when "their exclusive disipline or firearm" is next on the chopping block.As the UK Olympic pistol team found out post-Dunblane. They ended up having to train in Switzerland to represent the UK.Exclusevity is no protection from the anti-gun zealots.

Munsterlad102

So rather than bickering, what’s the next step? Do we take this lying down or do we actually try and do something?

Just a suggestion, but ranges should stop renting space for AGS training if they actively try to ban our sport and are allowed to shoot CFSA. If we can’t shoot CFSA, then neither can they.

BSA International

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119865636#Comment_119865636

1. Bickering won't stop.

2. We will have to take it any way they give it to "us".

3. Revenue from DOJ helps keep range/s open.

BSA International

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119865431#Comment_119865431

Calling other shooters rats and looking at your previous post, hardly fosters a spirit of comradeship among shooters who may disagree with you. Why don't FUNI, which you seem be, stop it? Haven't you been in with DOJ on this matter? You didn't need my support then.

Personally, I don't see the need for s/a f/b rifles in civvy hands, apart from an M1 Garand 😀 I'd like one of them.

BUT I would never advocate for or back a ban on any firearm. As for current situation, I reckon we need to pick our battles & avoid looking for firearms that "draw attention".

If NI kicks off again we'll probably see another 1972 type confiscation of firearms ........

garrettod

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing...