Is it time to join Nato

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118742478#Comment_118742478

The UK is protecting itself. Far as I know we give them permission to. Nobody has threatened our sovereignty since the early days of the state and that was a now NATO member. Other than that, nobody has or shows any signs of it.

We need to patrol our waters for various reasons and need a navy. You could talk me out of a land army if you wish, I would be easily persuaded.

Notmything

I would argue that the only threat to our sovereignty in recent times were all the various terrorist organisations in the North. That's why we need an army.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118743096#Comment_118743096

Why would we need to be in NATO to deal with an internal threat? I get your point about the need for an army.

Yurt2

Surely this war has brought it home to us that Europe's security is our security also.

By in large, we make no contribution to the defence and security of Europe, and the Russian navy episode is surely proof-positive that our underinvestment in defence is a liability for the continent. God knows what that Russian flotilla was really up to. Having witnessed the shocking events of the past two weeks, I don't think we can say with any confidence that those ships weren't in fact targetting the undersea cables.

I think if we understood the full extent to which Ireland is a safe harbour for malign activities from being a base for espionage on the continent and just generally a soft touch, we'd be shocked. The Russian embassy as an espionage hub for Western Europe has been in the press for a few years. The Gardai and Defence Forces more or less advised the government that's what they believed the extension of the embassy compound was about. I was a bit suspect about that assessment and thought it might be excitable Garda detectives sexing-up an extension and playing Jason Bourne. Now I'm not so sure.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118742090#Comment_118742090

Apparently, if we don't have it as a leash, us savage Irish would be invading countries left, right and centre.... or something to that effect.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118740595#Comment_118740595

No, I am not saying that.

I have repeated myself numerous times.

You cannot or do not what to understand.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118741587#Comment_118741587

100%

People also forget that part of this island is part of NATO already. Hence we get 'some' sort of defence by proxy. I would not be surprised if in any UI discussions this comes up.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118743599#Comment_118743599

Oh I understand...no worries.

markodaly

https://twitter.com/NextIrishGE/status/1500407423793831939

The majority now think that our concept of Neutrality is out of date.

We also contemplated joining NATO in 1950, but wouldn't because the UK was a member.

This is a good thread on the issue. Adds some facts to the debate, rather than emotion and fake news.

https://twitter.com/DonnachaDCU/status/1500494078139641863

We really do love a bit of Myth-making in this country.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118743653#Comment_118743653

1950 mark? There would have been many alive and well who had been through independence and a decade of carnage. I wouldn't expect them to trust Britain. Would you trust Boris? What about Iraq and WMD? Would you have been happy for your children to be dragged into that obscenity?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118743704#Comment_118743704

Well done.

Whataboutism x 4.

NATO is not the UK..

Back on topic, Lemass in 1962

https://twitter.com/DonnachaDCU/status/1500496018374336515?s=20&t=ZMYGoR4VQtKmfhPKDMwhng

Irish government position in the 1980's

https://twitter.com/DonnachaDCU/status/1500582035982852099?s=20&t=ZMYGoR4VQtKmfhPKDMwhng

TLDR:

Irish Neutrality was always a stop-gap until something more convenient came along. It's also not enshrined in the constitution, unlike what some think.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118743738#Comment_118743738

Realpolitik is not your thing is it?

No whataboutery in my post. If you think the US and the UK are not the primary powers in NATO that is a delusion only you suffer from. When it comes to starting wars I wouldn't trust either.

While neutrality doesn't require a referendum I don't think even FG and FF would be stupid enough to proceed without one but who knows. Any joining of an EU force requires a ref,

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118743759#Comment_118743759

When it comes to starting wars I wouldn't trust either.

But you trust them enough to veto Ireland's foreign policy? :)

markodaly

On EU defence, I can easily see an EU treaty of sorts coming down the line, and we will need to vote on it.

Denmark is holding a ref in June about this.

Will be interesting to see if the usual cranks are in power next time out if this happens and they call, yet again to reject an EU treaty.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118743774#Comment_118743774

How many times mark: our foreign policy is to take the direction of the UN.

Sorry, this is foreign policy 1st year stuff.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118743797#Comment_118743797

our foreign policy is to take the direction of the UN......

....which can be vetoed by the Americans, Brits or Russians.....

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118743804#Comment_118743804

Yes, and we knew that when we made it our foreign policy.

What was it you wanted to do without the blessing of the UN anyway? Oh wait! we can't do anything.

ROFL

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118743815#Comment_118743815

I actually don't believe that. Our neutrality has always been a fudge and poorly thought out.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118743829#Comment_118743829

?? We didn't know the top 5 in the UN had a veto?

That would be a savage indictment of FF and FG. Even a secondary school student would know of the veto.

323

Why would we want to be a part of NATO?

Its mandate to exist disappeared well over 30 years ago. But instead of being disbanded as it should have been as was the Warsaw Pact, it continued, not longer as a defensive alliance but as a tool of aggression, answerable to Washington DC.

Since then NATO and NATO member states, separately and together have destroyed the rule of international law, destroyed socially uplifting economies, destroyed democratic political economies, killed millions with their wars of aggression and created millions of refugees.

But then, sure think of the money/debt we would bring in by joining.

FrancieBrady

Looks like we are not very high up the list in Moscow.

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1500789076487970818

ittakestwo

Some of our perceived allies may be in Nato but alot of other countries hate Nato. I think we should stay out for a few reasons.

1. We have a miniscule chance of been attacked by a non Nato country.

2. Being part of Nato will mean we have to get in wars otherwise we did not have to. Could actually increase are chances of being attacked rather than decrease it.

3. We can have better political relations with countries that dislike Nato like China for instance than are neighbouring European Nato members.

In America people hold guns to protect themselves. But because other people hold guns it makes more people hold guns and the places is awashed with guns and you are factually more likely to be killed by a gun. I feel this is the same story with us joining Nato. What appears should make us safer will actually make us less safe. Nobody sees Ireland as a threat at the moment but if we join Nato (hold a gun) they could as so many countries despise Nato.

Britain the only country that invaded us now wish they never set foot. If London could dump the North they would in a flash. Why would anyone else think they would have a better time of it here. We are just sitting at the edge of Europe minding our own bussiness and will get left alone.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118744838#Comment_118744838

Never knew we left the EU...

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118744437#Comment_118744437

Ah, the Putin talking points.... go on..

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118703566#Comment_118703566

You do realise the RAF are our airforce if ever we need one ?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118744855#Comment_118744855

1. We have a miniscule chance of been attacked by a non Nato country.

Yes, we wont ever again suffer a cyber attack again... no need to invest in that at all.

2. Being part of Nato will mean we have to get in wars otherwise we did not have to. Could actually increase are chances of being attacked rather than decrease it.

What wars are these? People confuse NATO with the US. NATO was not in Iraq for example, it was not in Vietnam, it was not in Gulf War I, it was not in Korea. People think NATO is automatically involved in any and all actions the Americans want to get involved in.

This is clearly false.

3. We can have better political relations with countries that dislike Nato like China for instance than are neighbouring European Nato members.

NATO has nothing to do with the Pacific or Asia or China. If you think Ireland being 'nice' to China will make them our friends, then I have magic beans to sell you.

corks finest

No no no no no no

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118744899#Comment_118744899

1. Do you have to be in Nato to stop cyber attacks?

2. They were all offensive wars. But is it not the piont of Nato that they team up should one be invaded. If Russia invades Latvia for instance. Isn't Nato obliged to go to war with Russia. So yes joining nato would increase are chances of getting in wars.

3. China and others do not like Nato. By us joining Nato would weaken are political relations with them. No?

20silkcut

You can see the consequences of not being in NATO has for Ukraine right now in real time. And it is utterly brutal.

The Chinese would probably have to look up if we are in NATO or not if you asked them.

They probably assume we are because we are slap bang in the middle of the North Atlantic.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118744997#Comment_118744997

What do you think would have happened the minute Ukraine was accepted into NATO? It was a zero sum game between two world powers and Ukraine is the pawn sadly.

Nobody seems to want to discuss this at the moment.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118744877#Comment_118744877

What did Monaco and San Marino do to get special mentions?

Edit : and why didn't Vatican get a mention, the pope did tell Putin he'd been a very naughty boy.

20silkcut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118745150#Comment_118745150

Nato would have imposed a no fly zone the minute the Russian troop build up began before Christmas. The Russian troops would be back in their barracks in Russia at this stage.

FrancieBrady

Not in the opinion of many, who seem to think that Ukraine was never going to be let join without a fight.

I, and I am sure many others would be disgusted that the carnage we are seeing could have been so easily avoided.

If you are right, shame on NATO

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118744942#Comment_118744942

1. Do you have to be in Nato to stop cyber attacks?

Stop? Not sure.

Help and mitigate against? 100%!

They were all offensive wars.

Eh, no they were not. Korea for example was conducted under a UN resolution

Gulf War 1 was also backed by a UN resolution after Iraq invaded and annxes Kuwait, something similar to what Russia is doing no.

You clearly dont have an idea what you are talking about.

Learn some history first perhaps.

But is it not thepointt of Nato that they team up should one be invaded. If Russia invades Latvia for instance. Isn't Nato obliged to go to war with Russia. So yes joining nato would increase are chances of getting in wars.

That is article 5, which is the point of NATO, which is the defence umbrella that it operates under.

China and others do not like Nato. By us joining Nato would weaken are political relations with them. No?

What political relations do we have with China? Do you think China cares about Ireland? Most of the people there don't have an iota about us or what we are about.. so no, us joining NATO would be like an ant farting in the wind to them.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118745150#Comment_118745150

NATO is not a 'world power'. It is a defence alliance.

Again, 11 days into the invasion, you are still parroting Russia's and Putin's talking points and spreading its propaganda Mick Wallace style.

Pity.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118745304#Comment_118745304

Yes, shame on NATO.... and nothing to say about Russia and Putin...!?

Yes, another Putin talking head.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118745398#Comment_118745398

Why would I have to mention Putin on a thread about NATO?

I have condemned Putin as it happens, he is wrong, totally wrong.

Call off the hounds mark.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118745393#Comment_118745393

What are you trying to say mark? Again, I cannot help you if you don't understand realpolitik.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118745383#Comment_118745383

You just admit artical 5 of Nato means we could get dragged into wars should we join Nato? Why did you rebut piont 2 in post #327 when you just acknowledge being in Nato means we are obliged to war with other countries that invade another Nato member.

We trade with china, we have relations with China albeit not huge. China could decided to sanction Nato members economically in a similar way the west is sanctioning Russia. We would not be effected in that hypothetical scenario. But joning NATO leaves us open to something similar.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118745422#Comment_118745422

Yea, but NATO are equally to "blame"?

You have been spouting off pro-Russia and anti-NATO talking points for the past 10 or so days. You are being played and you don't even know it.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/02/russian-propaganda-anti-imperialist-left-vladimir-putin?fbclid=IwAR2DhhKnS90PUo23N-ynvwcntETjuHgYXuWpmXWThSBWLDrNoEdpV-3TZtw

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118745433#Comment_118745433

Yes, you who can barely hold two thoughts together at the same time, where basic concepts have to be water down... and you really understand realpolitik.....?

Pull the other one. You wont fool ol' Marko

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118745466#Comment_118745466

The reason article 5 exists is that no enemy would be stupid enough to attack members of NATO. Even Russia won't attack a NATO country, because that is WWIII and will bring some of the world's biggest military powers, like the US, UK and France, all nuclear powers into direct conflict.

It is why the Baltic states were so desperate to join. It is why, if Ukraine was a member, it would be at peace, rather than people dying every day.

We trade with china, we have relations with China albeit not huge. China could decided to sanction Nato members economically in a similar way the west is sanctioning Russia. We would not be effected in that hypothetical scenario. But joning NATO leaves us open to something similar.

China could do that I suppose, but then it is then sanctioned countries that makeup 45% of the entires world GDP, including its biggest export partner, the USA. So, if China did that, it would automatically make itself a lot poorer. Japan, India, Australia and South Korea would also side with NATO, which is another 20% of world GDP right there. Not a good move by China.

However, Ireland alone could well be vulnerable, but then again we are in the EU, so how does China sanction Ireland alone, when all trade deals are negotiated via the EU?

Actually, you just made another good point in order TO join NATO. Collective defensive against sanctions.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118745551#Comment_118745551

Artical 5 factually means we would have to enter a war we otherwise wouldn't have had to should we not be in Nato. There is more a chance of Russia invading the Baltic countries that are in Nato than it has of invading us not being in Nato. Even Biden said last week the Baltic countries are next for Putin. Realistically we have no chance chance of being invaded by a non Nato country but by being in Nato could mean we are dragged into wars we otherwise would not get into. It is a no brianer for us to stay out of Nato.

Why would China sanction Ireland when we are not in Nato, when the scenario I suggested was that they just wanted to sanction Nato countries. Chinas economy has quadrupled in size in the last 15 . In another 15 years it could be bigger than all the west economies put together and could boss nato countries with sanctions.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118745479#Comment_118745479

You clearly do not understand the situation fully if you are desperately trying to block discussion of NATO and their role in the state of the world.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118745906#Comment_118745906

I'm not blocking anything. Just calling out people, like you, regurgitating Russian and Putin propaganda talking points. You seem to want to peddle these lies and not be called out on them. It doesn't work that way Francie.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118745304#Comment_118745304

Eh, last I checked Russia invaded Ukraine. That wasn't any fault of NATO or anyone else, that is all on Putin, Russia and those in the West who gave him succour in advance and led him to think the West wouldn't react en masse. In Ireland, that means the likes of Ming, Wallace, Daly, Murphy and Sinn Fein must carry some element of the blame for what has happened to Ukraine.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118745466#Comment_118745466

Now that is fantasy stuff. If China were to sanction NATO members economically in a similar way the west is sanctioning Russia, the result would be a collapse of the Chinese economy.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118745708#Comment_118745708

Artical 5 factually means we would have to enter a war we otherwise wouldn't have had to should we not be in Nato.

No, it does say that at all.

Was Iceland in Iraq? Were the French and Germans?

Why would China sanction Ireland when we are not in Nato, when the scenario I suggested was that they just wanted to sanction Nato countries. Chinas economy has quadrupled in size in the last 15 . In another 15 years it could be bigger than all the west economies put together and could boss nato countries with sanctions.

Why would China sanction Ireland if it joined NATO? Why would it not sanction the EU instead or all NATO countries? You are not making any sense.

Do you think China will make up 60% of the world economy? No, it won't.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118746021#Comment_118746021

Being able to funnel his money through the EU including Dublin? senior government ministers looking to exploit his standing at the UN? His propaganda TV station receiving funding , Irish business encouraged to do business with him? If you are lashing that kind of blame around there is plenty of it.

It was always clear that Ukraine would precipitate a reaction, hence NATO's wariness about actually allowing them join.

They were playing a geo political game and Ukraine tragically lost and it wasn't even in the game. Russia, Nato (i.e. The US) were playing.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118743797#Comment_118743797

Nonsense, you obviously don't have a clue about foreign policy.

https://www.dfa.ie/media/dfa/alldfawebsitemedia/ourrolesandpolicies/ourwork/global-island/the-global-island-irelands-foreign-policy.pdf

The UN is a sideshow in our foreign policy.

"Our place in the world is underpinned by a number of interests, including a strong and effective European Union; a world system based on the rule of law with strong global institutions; and an open, free and rules-based global economy. Promoting these interests is part of our foreign policy"

"The European Union is fundamental to Ireland’s future. In our four decades of membership, it has assisted social and economic transformation in Ireland and helped us grow and prosper as a people. As we come through a challenging economic and financial crisis, the EU remains central to our long-term economic stability and growth."

The number one priority of Ireland's foreign policy is the EU.