Is it time to join Nato

Firblog

If being an unaligned country with a large army is no deterrent to Putin's ambitions is it time for ROI to join Nato?

Black Noel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058235047/is-it-time-to-join-nato

Don't be ridiculous, Russia never invaded us or acted in an unfriendly way towards us. Why would we join an alliance with the country that occupies us and has always done us harm?

Firblog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118703566#Comment_118703566

чорний Ноель probably posted something similar

Yurt2

We need to have a conversation about defence generally. If we are to remain neutral, we're going to have to spend some money to credibly insure ourselves and make ourselves a complete f*cking nuisance if there ever is a worst-case scenario and make sure we're not a soft target day-to-day anyway. That's probably not as expensive as a lot of people think, and we were spending a lot more on defence (in a poorer economy) as a percentage of GDP during the troubles.

If this war is illustrative of anything, it's that we never quite know what is coming around the corner (actually this was pretty well signposted, but too many people in Europe were content to ignore the flashing red lights).

We need (IMO) the following things:

-Investment in our navy

-Expanded special forces capacity against terror threats

-Some leased interceptors for our airspace

-Significant cyber defence investment

-A civilian intelligence agency

If we don't do those things, well, Nato looks like a pretty good option, because we need credible defence if we want to spend money on it or not.

Black Noel

Why not, it's very accurate.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118703566#Comment_118703566

Do you mean the UK, the country we'd expect to defend us if anything happened? The country that has to scramble their jets when Russians come into our airspace?

Firblog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118703648#Comment_118703648

if every country used your logic either there would be no Nato or Germany wouldn't be allowed to be a member, pretty much invaded every other country in Europe (Spain, Italy & Turkey being exceptions), I hope you didn't feel too upset or loose too much sleep when the Brits ponied up 5Bn to help us during the recession - takin' the queens shillin' and all that

Black Noel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118703673#Comment_118703673

When has the UK defended us...in Cromwell's day?

During the plantations?

During the 1798 rebellion?

During the 1845 genocide?

In 1916?

1919-23?

You're naive if you imagine they give a toss about us.

Black Noel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118703703#Comment_118703703

I don't see where that is analogous to our situation. Germany occupied some countries for a few years and were soundly beaten to a pulp for their troubles.

If other countries had come to our rescue and beaten the brits to a pulp, occupied their country and installed a puppet government, perhaps you'd have an analogous situation 😉

Yurt2

Are you one of the dissident RA lads waving Russian puppet state flags up in Derry yesterday?

Black Noel

The brits didn't pony up 5bn to help us, they have us a loan which we pay interest on, they're more like the village money lender.

Yurt2

I'll take that as a yes

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118703787#Comment_118703787

I thought they'd be signing up in their legions to fight against imperialism in Ukraine.

Relax brah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118703627#Comment_118703627

was unaware of state investments during the trouble - have you any specific example of that?

not questioning your accuracy, just interested in learning more.

thanks

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118703839#Comment_118703839

We were spending about 1.5% of GDP on defence during the Troubles, we spend about .5% now.

Galwayguy35

Yes.

Its time to get off the fence and expecting others to watch our backs.

There are smaller nations than us joined up and playing their part.

riffmongous

Still no as I think we are covered by the EU collective defence policy, without being bound to any required levels of expenditure or American interference. Happy to be corrected on this.

Dyr

Because NATO needs another dependant state that offers them nothing....

RobbingBandit

No it's not it's bad enough all the UN stuff in the past couple years yet the country hasn't ratified the un rights for people with disabilities, putting the nation at risk just to glorify the cretins that think they represent Ireland to add a new beaver scout badge on their sash is disgusting.

wpd

i expect NATO will have to be completely rethought after the ukraine invasion by Russia

an EU army would may be a better option

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118703723#Comment_118703723

They probably don’t care too much about us, they do care about an enemy being a couple of hundred miles from London. So I’m pretty sure they’ve got our back.

No.

The amount of investment needed for military spending to make any contribution worthwhile would cut far too much into Ireland's revenue for very dubious returns.

Anyway, Ireland is not going to be invaded by anyone. There's no value for anyone to attack us. It makes no sense to join NATO.

Firblog

Anyone = Russia

Value = some nice ports on the atlantic+ Control the airspace between Europe and US + missile bases within 300 odd miles of all major UK cities.

Phil.x

Stop spending 1million per day on plastic bollards and cycle lanes and invest in radar and heavy aviation to be somewhat useful to our nato neighbours.

Polar101

Ireland can't join Nato - members are expected to contribute to defence. Ireland doesn't have a lot to contribute. So the road to Nato would need big increases in defense, which seems to be a no-no here since it has been decided no-one will ever be hostile to Ireland (despite recent cyber attacks and current world events).

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118705968#Comment_118705968

We can offer Shannon in case any European NATO member wants to take a massive detour en route to wherever, possibly the Defence Forces have a developed a dance routine for TikTok and Colin Fennelly can still pull hard with a hurl. Truth is, the PSNI backed by a few Orange bands could probably invade us successfully

Manach

Perhaps - but first we would need to match spending on Defence as a percentage of GDP as per NATO standards.

Black Noel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118705151#Comment_118705151

Lol, so you accept they don't give a sh1t about us yet you hold on to the fairy tale that 'they've got our back'.

You're fooling yourself.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118706159#Comment_118706159

The two are not mutually exclusive. They would have our back against any aggressor in the interest of self preservation. Noel, it’s fair to say that the only reason someone would invade Ireland, would be to launch an attack against England.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118706133#Comment_118706133

Not necessarily true. The 2% of GDP is a target - many countries don't meet it and aren't compelled to meet it. In fact, only 5 treaty members hit or exceed that target.

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118703723#Comment_118703723

how are you fixed for the junior cert comrade ?

Good to see you again, gortanna. They're missing you on the ct threads.

Donald Trump

Is it time to join NATO?

No. It's after a quarter to 2 in the morning. It's time for bed

markodaly

Maybe it is time.

Certainly its time for Ireland to have a proper think of what it wants from its defence forces. We have the weakest defence forces by far in Western Europe and a vast amount of Ocean and airspace to defend....

The basics would be nice, but yes, NATO may be a good idea alright.

" Is it time to join NATO ? "

Only if there's free pints !!

Sort our own defence forces first, then decide on NATO. At least we can truly be neutral if needed then too

Do we have any friends in Congress who could wrangle some nuclear bombs for us?

Ireland's first priority is surely the survival of the Irish nation. Given Ireland's small size and geography, as few as one or two hydrogen bombs detonating on the island would extinguish our nation. In the event of a global nuclear war, we would probably be struck anyway; but that doesn't mean we should make it a certainty by joining an alliance out of which we stand to gain absolutely nothing but a nuclear target on our back.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118705768#Comment_118705768

And for that to happen, both the UK and France would need to be conquered... at which time, being a member of NATO would mean squat, nor would having a tiny military.

Captainsatnav

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118703566#Comment_118703566

Poland, UK, US, Canada, Estonia, Latvia, Norway, Greece, Lithuania, Denmark, Belgium, Czechia, Albania all suffered a lot moe a lot more recently at the hands of Germany, Romania, Hungary and Italy...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118706907#Comment_118706907

wasnt ireland already on the soviet nuclear target list?

nigeldaniel

100% yes The Republic should join NATO. Russia has already started a cyberwar with us in case Pro Russia folks try to make us forget. A Hybrid war would be next on their agenda which we already see signs of courtesy of some odd comments from Russia about Ireland and the Irish language of late.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118703566#Comment_118703566

Poland joined a Nato alliance with Germany

most countries dont hold an infinite grudge

banie01

I would be in no rush for us to join NATO.

However, the defence capability we sorely lack needs to addressed. I think even the recently released Defence Commission report is now overtaken by Geo-political reality.

We need to accept that option 3 is now the baseline. We are not and never will be capable of going toe to toe with a great power. That should not be our aim however, we must be able to provide control of our airspace and EEZ, to be able to surveil and inderdict interlopers and to present at least a notional defensive capability.

The rush to fighter jets? We certainly need the capability but I'd suggest for that we start with offering one of our European neighbours use of SNN as a western approaches base for air policing. Capability takes time to build and we should do it carefully.

Focus our resources on our Navy and on actual maritime patrol and exclusion capability. The new CASA are a good step in that direction.

We desperately need an airlift capability and we should consider joining either an Aircraft pool such as EATC.

We don't need to rush towards NATO, but certainly we should both improve our capability and integrate more with PESCO.

Neutrality and whether we are or not? Needs to be dealt with head on. Yes we have an important tradition of being militarily non-aligned. But we are a "western" nation on the edge of the EU with a huge amount of strategic value in our location for both sea and air communication as well as the cables 😉

Our only constitutional nod to neutrality is article 49. Which absent invasion, grants the power to make war to the Daíl. A referendum on whether we seek to change that article to "neutral" or to give a clearer language? Maybe, but other than many in Ireland assuming we are "legally" neutral rather than just "traditionally"? What would it gain.

The lack of devensive capability is a drum that many of us armchair generals have been banging for quite a while. The actions of Russia, the threats to Sweden and Finland and the nuclear sabre rattling only strengthens that need IMO.

In the interim? We should sent out Javelin and AT4 to Ukraine.

titan18

NATO is unnecessary when we have the UK on our side and UK terrority on the island. If Russia invaded, US (Shannon and politics of the US) and UK would help.

And if anyone else invaded us, it'd probably be the UK so we're fecked in or out of NATO.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118705102#Comment_118705102

Ireland is part of the Nordic Group of the EU's Rapid Reaction Force.

Ireland has a long history as UN peacekeepers and winning the peace can be more difficult than winning the war.

We have good relations with the US and are beside France and the UK.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118706117#Comment_118706117

We already "offer" Shannon to NATO members, why would they admit us when they already get what they want from us?

We have nothing to contribute, and the only tangible impact of joining NATO is seeing Irish soldiers shipped off to die. Best of luck lads

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118706907#Comment_118706907

Ireland and and other countries need to join NATO to prevent states like Russia and China from starting a global nuclear war. There is no much value in being one of the few not bombed in the nuclear winter waiting for starvation and radiation poisoning to do the job.

marieholmfan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118709263#Comment_118709263

How is the UK on our side?

The UK continues to occupy this country. The UK is Ireland's only enemy.

marieholmfan

positron

Wouldn't joining the NATO jeopardise the respect Ireland gets as a peacekeeping force. Why would anyone want to attack Ireland anyway, in or out of NATO?

As a small country with very low population density, and not much in the way of easily exploitable natural resources, Ireland should not be in the cross-hairs of any rogue states / Bond villains etc, unless of course if Ireland picks a side and starts contributing to a war.

Even if we were to divert massive amount of GDP to defense, there is absolutely no way we can compete with larger players out there. We are smaller than a medium size city of many of the more powerful nations. On the other hand, being non-aligned will help us punch above our weight-class as mediators, facilitating peace deals, (peacefully) advocating for the vulnerable etc.

Just thinking out loud.