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Is it time to join Nato

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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    We're going to become an offence force by joining NATO?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,019 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Well was it not you who wanted to send troops North as 'peacekeepers'?


    It seems you have no faith in the Irish Government or the people who elect them.

    Sending troops abroad is of huge consequence and would not be taken lightly. It seems you have more faith in the Brits or the Russians who have a veto than the Irish people and government themselves.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,019 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Yes, apparently if we join Nato on Sunday, we will be kicking down doors in Noth Africa on Monday.

    Or, if we get rid of the Triple Lock on Wednesday, we will be invading Venezuela on Thursday.


    ROFL! People and their scaremongering.



  • Registered Users Posts: 67,152 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I didn't create the triple lock mark. The government at the time accepted that as part of the decision making process. Taunt them about it.

    Ideally peacekeeping needs a very broad alliance behind it and the umbrella of the UN (flaws and all) is the best we have got.

    I did think that we should have went in anyway to the north which was at the time, constitutionally disputed territory in our eyes. Even if it was wrong it was still the right thing to do morally and we can still do that (break the triple lock if we wish)

    Interesting to see that you now think the UN part of the lock is a bad thing and the government should be free to send troops were they wish.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,019 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    I was asking you, would you advocate to remove it.

    Apparently not, so Brits vetoing us is fine by you.

    Oh the irony bomb!


    Then when it comes to the North, ignore the Triple Lock, and the UN and invade a NATO member unilaterally, with no international support.

    You are not very good at this, are you? :)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 67,152 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Here is what you said about the lock:


    I would remove it and let the Dail and Government decide what our defence forces are to be used for. Surely you agree?


    I.E. Hypothetically, a government could send troops were they wished.

    Giggling to myself here at how you just demolished your previous arguments to try and ...well you know what you were doing yourself.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,019 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Not really a counterargument.

    It seems you have more faith in the Brits or the Russians than your own Irish government.



  • Registered Users Posts: 67,152 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I never pronounced 'faith' in anything mark. I pointed out the lock exists and that we have more say than the UN has (as you claimed) as two arms of the state have to approve any mission.

    I also believe peacekeeping needs an umbrella group behind it and the UN is the best we have got.

    Other than that you are now once again projecting and trying it on.

    If you have anything relevant to the topic, say it. Otherwise...good luck.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,019 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    You clearly advocate keeping the triple lock, which essentially means that the Irish Government and Dail cannot be trusted, we need Russians and Brits to veto us in case we accidentally or otherwise invade some random Latin American country.


    Do other countries have a similar setup? I cant think of any.



  • Registered Users Posts: 67,152 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You cannot undo you faux pas mark. You change with the wind to score a point and undermined your own torturous logic. Still giggling here.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Amadan Dubh


    Couldn't have said it any better.

    Ireland, under no threat whatsoever, bankrupt, should pull cash out of thin air to build up its military defence capabilities. Hilarious.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    We're bankrupt? Someone get on to Paschal there that he needs to call the IMF.



  • Registered Users Posts: 67,152 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Finance the DF's properly and feck off with the gung ho stuff is what they should be told. Leo trying to blame the downgrading of the DF'S on Irish people thinking the US or UK coming to our rescue was obscene. They downgraded the DF and our state services to the point they are at.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,019 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    I dont follow.

    I think yet again you wont ask another simple question. Plainly obvious as to why, but anyway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 67,152 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    What question? The one trying to goad me? You think the mention of the word 'British' will send me into a death spiral? Bless mark, poor you.

    Anyway, tell us what you expect the Irish government to do without the triple lock...where will we go on our jolly japes? Will we be colonists or just rape and plunder? ROFL



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,019 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    One can look at it like this

    1) Keep the political status quo

    2) Keep the political status quo but fund the DF better (options B or C in that report)

    3) Actually keep neutral, like Sweden but this will mean massive increases in defence spending

    4) Get rid of the triple-lock. Personally, I think it's crazy that we allow permanent members of the UN Security Council to dictate foreign policy terms to us. It essentially means the Russians, Chinese or the British get to veto a decision, we the Irish people make.

    5) Join NATO*


    At least NATO comes with a security blanket protection and other benefits. At the moment the triple lock comes with zero benefits.

    The cranks and usual crew won't like any of those options though.


    *There is also the possibility of some future EU army or DF or something like that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,019 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Would you advocate getting rid of the Triple Lock, which means that the Russians or Brits veto foreign policy decisions for us.

    Yes or No... its that simple.



  • Registered Users Posts: 67,152 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Foreign policy is not dictated to us, our Foreign Minister can even go to Russia to suck up for a vote.

    I'll say this again but it will probably fall on deaf ears again, peacekeeping needs an umbrella group and the UN is the best we have. I didn't establish the veto.

    What else do you advise ignoring the UN on BTW?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,019 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Anyway, tell us what you expect the Irish government to do without the triple lock...where will we go on our jolly japes? Will we be colonists or just rape and plunder? ROFL

    This comment is very telling. It shows you don't trust the Irish people, the Dail or the government, as if we need the UN and its permanent Security Members to keep us in check because, without it, we are going to rape our way through the Middle East or North Africa.

    Shocking and bizarre comment from yourself.

    Mature western liberal democracies the world over, like Sweden, Norway, Denmark and the like don't have a triple lock, and they don't end up being colonists or rapists.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,019 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Ok, so that is a No, you don't advocate to remove it and you are quite happy with the veto the Chinese, Americans, French, Russians and the old enemy, 'da Brits' have on our foreign policy.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 67,152 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You want the freedom for us to intervene where we like. Undermining all the arguments you made elsewhere.

    You are done here mark, trussed up in your own desire to score a point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Amadan Dubh


    Where is our income tax reform? Why are we still paying USC? Why are property taxes being increased?

    Our national debt is €236bn. Take away our ability to borrow at zero percent rates and we won't afford the servicing costs (which run at approximately €4bn per annum currently).



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,019 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    The freedom to make our own choices Francie, and again no one is saying we are going to invade some random country the minute the triple lock goes. In fact, anyone arguing that is not arguing in good faith at all.

    As I said before, if the argument is, that we get rid of the Triple Lock on Sunday, and invade a random country on Monday, it's one of the most preposterous arguments I've ever seen.

    You are conceding that the Brits need to mind us, as we are too savage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 67,152 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Are you happy for any government here to administer this scheme mark? Say there is another build up of tension in the north? Would you be for us sending in an aid/peacekeeping mission?

    Jaysus, this is classic, please don't close the thread! ROFL.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭Gant21


    If NATO will build a blast of council houses for us sign us up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    No need to join NATO. The Ukrainian army are on verge of victory v the Russians....according to the Ukraine defence minister.

    Or maybe it's propaganda?



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    But over 20 years we will put 500 billion into welfare ,25 billion per annum , over 20 years.

    We currently put about 400 million into defense after pensions and salaries are paid ,we send 800millon over seas which can and spent on other countries defense forces .

    We can well afford to spend 2-3 billion improving the defense forces capabilities as seen in Ukraine If your not part of nato or another alliance when the **** hits the fan were on our own the Americans and anyone else won't be sending troops to defend us , despite the usual excuse used by many on here oh we don't need to spend money someone will come and protect us.

    Sorry luv it's not going happen



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling




  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling




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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,332 ✭✭✭beachhead


    Russia does not see Ireland as unaligned.The country toadies to whoever offers benefits i.e. tech jobs or air cover for example.I doubt very much if Uncle Sam or GB would do anything if the Russian bear wanted a piece of the Irish teddy.



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