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Is it time to join Nato



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 51,215 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro

    You can be neutral and still be somewhat self sufficient in patrolling your own airways and coasts.

    I don't think there's any need (nor appetite) in the country to up military spending to say, 3 billion and jump into NATO headfirst. To those that do think it's a good idea - it's also one that's incredibly unrealistic. It's simply not going to happen.

    What we do need to do though is invest at a bare minimum in ships to patrol our waters, and radar for our skies. And pay those that do it more.

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,602 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords

    So for about the 10th time of asking, what have NATO 'engaged' in? Do they have an 'end-goal'?

    These are fairly simple questions that warrant asking.

    Mod - The questions are unlikely to be answered at this point so asking the user again and again is just badgering them and soapboxing. Just move on

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    People with no knowledge or interest in geopolitics had the Ukraine invasion show up on their facebook feed a week ago, replacing whatever drivel about celebrity dancing or soccer matches they were reading previously. Now they think we are "next" and we better join NATO. It is absurd and points to a real problem with our education system.

  • Registered Users Posts: 67,376 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady

    Leo seeking to blame '70 years of the public thinking somebody (the UK or the US) was coming to help us' for the hollowing out of our defence forces and the state they are in was peak power swap politics.

    The defence force are in the state they are in due to neglect and lack of funding, there have been enough calls and demands on this.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,378 ✭✭✭nigeldaniel

    The left and their friends in the ultra-left don't do irony, do they? Just saying as I have been reading some of their posts here with some degree of amusement.

    NATO is like it or not fast becoming an essential part of Europe's defence and Ireland will need to step up to the plate in that regard.

    Ireland does not need to spend crazy money on defence but we can spend enough be assembled specialist units that can be deployed in the event of them being needed. Cyber units, drones operators, counter-terror units. Rapid reaction battalions. Some of them can double up as emergency rescue units in the event of natural disasters. That would be in regard to Europe as a whole.

    Just my two pennies worth here.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 67,376 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady

    Peacekeeping forces are needed too. That are not aligned to NATO or any military alliance. That is a huge offering to the world.

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,054 ✭✭✭✭markodaly

    Has there though? I remember ten years ago there were calls to scrap the government jet as if ministers should be taking a Ryanair flight to EU meetings. That is the level of maturity we have in relation to this stuff.

  • Registered Users Posts: 67,376 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,054 ✭✭✭✭markodaly

    One can do both. There is nothing stopping other NATO members from offering the UN troops in peacekeeping.

    There were some good points made though about the Triple-Lock in deploying troops, where essentially the permanent members of the UN security council can veto where we deploy troops. Essentially Russia, China and your friends the UK, can tell us where we cannot deploy troops.

    If one was a truly neutral nation, it would purely be up to us and no one else.

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,054 ✭✭✭✭markodaly

    The government jet is a part of the Irish Air Corps. Can you imagine the reaction from the usual crowd if say the government went off to buy jet fighters or some more boats to patrol our waters?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr

    We need the army to act as binmen and bus drivers sometimes, perhaps we should factor that into our plans too?

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08

    I think the problem with NATO is that its leading members (US & UK) are far too militaristic. Putin's propaganda is that NATO is a front for US & UK imperialism. I listened to a Ukrainian yesterday explain that the Ukraine disarmed because the US & UK promised that they would protect them. Where is the US & UK now when they need them. Putin's real fear is EU enlargement, but he can't use that as propaganda or as a reason to invade Ukraine.

    Ireland would be nuts to join NATO. We would be a sitting target and a launching pad to attack both US & UK from Atlantic. The UK always wanted to hold onto Ireland and Scotland for strategic reasons as we are a natural protection barrier for them.

  • Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭Notmything

    We ve had troops on peacekeeping/peace enforcement missions under NATO and it hasn't changed anything.

    From personal experience I preferred NATO missions as there was always a sense that they had your back unlike UN missions.

    From a personal view, I never felt we as a country were truly neutral. Whether we like it or not we are aligned, we buy Western equipment for the military,are part of the EU, are part of the EU battlegroup programme, and our social and political stances are clear.

    If we were truly neutral then we would have to have the capacity to enforce this policy, would have to pull back from a lot of the roles we have in a global society.

    We are more correctly militarily non aligned, but with a clear leaning.

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08

    Leo would disagree with you about Ireland's part in WWII. He recokons that it was Dev's greatest achievement keeping Ireland out of the war.

    Over a 1000 people died in the bombing of Belfast - the biggest loss of life in a German air raid in UK. The British didn't even bother to launch a defence and it was the south that mainly came to their aid. How do you think Ireland would have defended itself against the Luftwaffe or the German navy?

  • Registered Users Posts: 67,376 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady

    No argument on our neutrality being watered down.

    An Irish peacekeeping mission must comply with a triple lock approval: from the UN, The government, and the Dáil. Some of those missions have been led by NATO of which we are not a part.

  • Registered Users Posts: 67,376 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,054 ✭✭✭✭markodaly

    Essentially foreign powers like the UK, China and Russia have the same say in how we use our military as the Dail does.

  • Registered Users Posts: 67,376 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady

    If one of two arms of our state say no, then it doesn't happen regardless of what the UN say. Not the same say at all mark. Sorry.

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,054 ✭✭✭✭markodaly

    If both arms of our state say yes, but the Brits or the Russians say no, you are OK with that? Not much of a Republican I guess ;)

  • Registered Users Posts: 67,376 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,054 ✭✭✭✭markodaly

    You know what I am talking about. Feigned ignorance won't get you off the hook.

  • Registered Users Posts: 8 nteytaa

    sorry if you have already stated and i missed reading your post -

    Fact no need or help.If a conflict with russia\china etc.

    nato\eu\uk\usa being on their side does nothing

    in a conflict ireland being western soil on atlantic to usa is seen as a possible landing point into europe for usa

    Hence one of the first for nuke strike to remove possible use.

    i am inclined usa also targets for the same purpose to stop a large force use ireland as springboard to usa.

    You gotta get real - we not talking a tank against a tank with a major conflict

    Nato no use to ireland but endangers its citizens as be dragged into minor conflicts.

    THIS why usa\uk\nato NOT engage in ukraine -

    the usa bluff called and bullying has come to an end .

    Just like borris uk only one to take uk out of eu - putin only one to say stop usa and has the nukes if try to silence him.

    IT is a new era and time to rethink whom\what is good for the citizens and forget about threats from usa.

    remind you there is a 3 billion population whom did not support usa led un action against russia

    usa and eu is 300 million - whom we better trading with ? as i not interested in getting roasted for corrupt usa\irish\eu politicians

    whom are already getting rich on our taxes and dont feel what the majority of citizens feel as poverty\high prices\poor sevices etc.

  • Registered Users Posts: 67,376 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady

    I don't. Other than a penchant for taunting about Britain what is that post about?

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr

    Francie seems very confused: The primary reason we have a military is not peace keeeping abroad, it's the defence of our territory, obviously it's completely incapable of that but that's what we should be focused on. I know Irish people are addicted to for the pat on the head from abroad for being good chaps but we may have to forgo that for a bit and make like the Finns

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,054 ✭✭✭✭markodaly

    The Brits, the Russians and the Chinese have a veto on how we use our defence forces. You seem OK with that.

  • Registered Users Posts: 67,376 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady

    Yes, absolutely. The defence forces have been crying out for years for proper funding to do the job they should be doing.

    Joining a military alliance brings us into a different realm though. Rather than being defence forces the would become an offence force. And we as a people do not want to do that.

    By all means properly fund our defence force though.

  • Registered Users Posts: 67,376 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady

    That's part and parcel of being in the UN, the top 5 have a veto. Are you only finding this out now?

  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 51,215 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,054 ✭✭✭✭markodaly

    No, that's part and parcel of us having the triple lock.

    I would remove it and let the Dail and Government decide what our defence forces are to be used for. Surely you agree?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 67,376 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady

    Have you thought this through Mark.

    That would mean our government (whosoever it is) could send our troops anywhere. We could send them into the north if required for instance...or to Venezuela.

    Given your previous views, I can be confident that you haven't given this a second's thought other than using it trying to rile people.

    As a world umbrella group the UN is the best we have despite it's flaws.