Is it time to join Nato

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723288#Comment_118723288

Are you sure about that?

https://thehill.com/policy/cybersecurity/558383-nato-member-states-agree-to-new-cyber-defense-policy-following

 The United States and other North Atlantic Treaty Organization nations endorsed a new cyber defense policy Monday as part of the NATO summit in Brussels.

“Reaffirming NATO’s defensive mandate, the Alliance is determined to employ the full range of capabilities at all times to actively deter, defend against, and counter the full spectrum of cyber threats, including those conducted as part of hybrid campaigns, in accordance with international law,” the Brussels Summit Communique released by NATO Monday read. 

As part of the new policy, a decision to invoke Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty, which founded NATO, would be taken on a “case-by-case basis” involving cyberattacks on NATO members.

FrancieBrady

We should never join NATO and get drawn into the toxic geopolitical wars and strategic shennanigans of it's primary members. We are good at going into places to help pacify places some of those wars/strategic shennanigans tears apart, something of actual value to the world.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723310#Comment_118723310

After the DDOS attack, weren't we talking to France and Germany about tighter security?

I couldn't care less about this TBH, but whatever. If you think joining a military defensive pact because of the possibility of a DDOS attack iks a good idea, then have at it. But it's absolutely the weakest argument for doing so that I've heard yet.

I can guarantee you won't be putting your tin hat to go to the frontline though. 😉

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723337#Comment_118723337

Who knows, Francie, it may be part of a UI condition. Ater all, the North is part of NATO! ;)

The big reluctance of joining NATO is a hang-up of our War of Independence, that because the UK is in there, we cannot be.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723387#Comment_118723387

Nonsense, it is because of what NATO does and what the primary members have engaged in over the years. If the majority vote for a UI there will be no 'conditions'. There will be negotiations and an agreement. It is for the people of Ireland to decide their fate.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723356#Comment_118723356

I can guarantee you won't be putting your tin hat to go to the frontline though. 😉

Yes, because that is what is going to happen.

Tell us all, how many times have Iceland and Norway or Portugal sent young men into the trenches to die for NATO?

Again, overhyping the negatives, while downplaying the potential positives.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723413#Comment_118723413

Ah, this nugget again.

Tell us, what has NATO 'engaged' in over the years? Otherwisew Conspiracy Form ->> that way..

On the UI stuff, let's leave that out because you have been schooled on it before. Any agreement on a UI will have all the conditions laid out before we vote on it. NATO could very well be part of it. That's all il say.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723457#Comment_118723457

It's clear you will broach no criticism of NATo so I'm not even going to bother.

There is no block on individuals going to join a nation in NATO's forces. That is how it should be left.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723441#Comment_118723441

Norwegian troops were involved in both Afghanistan and Iraq as part of their NATO obligations.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723488#Comment_118723488

Fair enough, but the idea that Ireland will be conscripting tens of thousands of young unwilling boys to fight in some far-flung place is a fantasy and pure scaremongering.

We sent a small number of Irish troops to Mali for example. Most people seem ok with that.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723508#Comment_118723508

So if we join NATO we will stop Putin lobbing 10 Megaton bombs? Maybe he'll withdraw from Ukraine if we join?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723470#Comment_118723470

No I asked a fairly simple question as you repeat RT and Putin talking points again and again on boards.ie

So for about the 10th time of asking, what have NATO 'engaged' in? Do they have an 'end-goal'?

These are fairly simple questions that warrant asking.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723566#Comment_118723566

We don't close eyes. We offer, to me anyway, an extremely valuable service after wars and conflict. We couldn't do that as part of NATO and we have already watered down our neutrality to the point where it might come back to bite us.

Cassius99

We in Ireland live very charmed lives. By an accident of geography we are positioned on the periphery of Europe next to a (relatively) friendly neighbour. Strategically, there's not much to be gained from targeting us. Realistically there is nobody that wants to (or would feel the need to) invade us.

However, there's a number of points that the sad events of the last week have raised:

1. If attacked, any non aligned country is on their own. You cannot expect other nations to fight your battles. The often repeated Irish "expectation" that the EU, the US or the UK will intervene and bleed on our behalf needs to end now.

2. Any nation worth its salt, needs to be able to stage a credible defence/resistance to be regarded as a nation deserving of its independence. Unlike what some on Boards often declare, nobody expects Ireland to defeat any country in battle (let alone a superpower). But it is expected that we at least stage a cohesive defence of our sovereign territory even if that is ultimately futile. Nobody expects Cyprus to defeat the Turkish army if they suddenly decide to annex the rest of that island. They do however expect them to at least take the field of battle and say they tried to give them a bloody nose.

Likewise, the oft repeated mantra of "sure the RAF will protect out skys" is BS. The UK has it's own strategic interests. Brexit (and history) should have taught us by now that these interests may differ drastically (if not be completely contrary) to what our own interests are as a nation.

Ultimately I would not agree with Ireland joining NATO. It is unnecessary and I am not comfortable with the possibility of being drawn into conflicts that do not directly concern us. But that is a luxury we are afforded due to our location on the globe, nothing more. We do however, need to drop the whole "sure the world loves us" spiel, and take steps to ensure our owm security, as the recent HSE hack showed.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723544#Comment_118723544

Nobody has said the we'll be "conscripting tens of thousands of young unwilling boys to fight in some far-flung place" except you.

BTW there were thousands of Portuguese troops involved in Afghanistan, too, as part of their NATO obligations.

goldenmick

It's not Nato you want to be overly concerned about. Ireland needs to save its pennies for a while and then get some nukes.

Just a handful of them, at the ready and pointed at the bully boys of the world.

They'll think twice about fecking with us then.

The world is full of nuclear weapons, and always will be. So if you cant beat them join them.

Hello 2D Person Below

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723690#Comment_118723690

Just on the topic of no country coming to our defence...

An attack on Ireland is a de facto attack on the UK and therefore an attack on NATO. The RAF don't monitor our skies for the good of their health. It's beneficial to the integrity of their territory.

Anyone who thinks Ireland gets invaded and the British don't react to protect Northern Ireland is away with the fairies. You think the British are going to allow a hostile enemy run amok a few miles from their border?

Now, if there was a United Ireland and the British had no territory on this island, that'd be a different story. We'd be paddling our own canoe then.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723927#Comment_118723927

The British would still look to patrol the skies over Ireland because of fears of attack from the west. Their actions on the world stage make them a target, let them at it.

Cassius99

Only a few months ago Dominic Cummings was telling the world that it was the UK's Brexit masterplan to effectively force Ireland out of the EU (contrary to our national best interest).

For anyone to then state their contentment for such a nation to be an integral part of their own defence strategy is at best an ill judged viewpoint.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723842#Comment_118723842

Irish troops also served in Afghanistan.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118724064#Comment_118724064

So you are happy for the RAF to patrol Irish airspace?

Just ROFL!

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725593#Comment_118725593

I would have no issue allowing the British overflight to protect themselves, as long as they didn't abuse the permission.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725585#Comment_118725585

Not as combat troops. Their main operations were admin and dismantling IED's as part of the UN's peace keeping efforts in support of the ISAF from 2001 to 2012. Later they were part of the RSM under NATO.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725646#Comment_118725646

Afaik, not all members of NATO sent combat troops. But you get the point, semantics aside joining NATO is not the doom some people make it out to be.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725615#Comment_118725615

What about protecting Irish airspace? Does it not embarrass you that Ireland has to phone up the RAF to help them intercept Russian jets that incur in our airspace?

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725660#Comment_118725660

It's also completely unnecessary.

BalcombeSt4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118703723#Comment_118703723

"1919-23?"

The Period when Russia was the only major power to recognize the independence of the revolutionary Irish Republic & established diplomatic relations with Dail Eireann, when we were shunned by the US government who refused to meet our President or even listen to our democratic demands at the Peace Conference? That period?

"During the Irish revolutionary period, the Soviets were supportive of Irish efforts to establish a Republic independent of Britain and was the only state to have relations with the Irish Republic.

During the 1916 Easter Rising, Vladimir Lenin spoke of it positively calling it a decisive "blow against the power of English imperialism". In 1920 Roddy Connolly, the son of the Socialist Republican James Connolly who was executed by firing squad in the aftermath of the Easter Rising visited Lenin in Russia. Lenin informed Connolly that he had read his father’s book "Labour and Irish History" and that he rates him “head and shoulders” above other European socialists."

theguzman

I would be in favour of increasing our military co-operation and increasing military spending. How about cut 50,000 useless public and civil servants (HSE?) and cutback on social spending and then increase our military spending and increase troop numbers to 30,000 minimum. There should be compulsory military service and firearms training for all citizens, look at Finland. Have a few fight jets, anti aircraft rockets and the ability to deploy 50% of our military overseas at short notice.

We need to build up our military forces because after Irish reunification we can be almost certain that the day will come when we will have wage a defensive war in Northern Ireland as after a United Ireland referendum passes (demographic certainty) we will have to roll troops and peacekeepers in immediately and quell the Unionist rebellions to prevent Civil war in NI.

If we look back at History Irish Neutrality in World War II was the yet another one of the great disgraces De Valera and Fianna Fail hoisted on the nation, if ever there was a justified and moral war it was the battle against Hitler. If we had a Government with integrity at the time we would have openly declared war on Germany and Japan after Pearl Harbour in unity with the United States not the British Empire allowing them to save face also. Our participation would have saved countless allied lives in the battle of the Atlantic, allowed for the defeat of Hitler earlier and seen D-Day take place sooner holding back the Soviets from conquering such large swathes of land in Eastern Europe as the Allies would have arrived sooner. It would have given Ireland access to Marshall Aid after and seen large parts of Dublin and Limerick destroyed (no harm there) and rebuilt (properly) and alot of our current day problems like infrastructure and housing would not exist. Churchill had promised a United Ireland had we joined and if we did the Northern Unionists would not be as sceptical either and I believe it would have happened.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725670#Comment_118725670

If we want to protect ourselves then we can protect, make the investment. I don't see it as necessary, we are not under threat.

Polar101

As far as defence policies go, "someone else will help" isn't the most convincing one. Why would anyone help a country that doesn't want to defend itself, even though it could afford to do so?