Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

72sheep

This is a meaningful personal battle (for a very tiny gender minority) but make no mistake about whose war you're fighting. The majority are eeking out an existence in rented/parents accommodation and their prospects are marginal. That much larger segment, of which most of the gender campaigners are a part, are not exactly making lots of gains and this debate is nothing more than distraction from that greater social injustice. It's all just divide and conquer. 

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118799319#Comment_118799319

She’s miles off the NCAA records set by Katie Ledecky.

Anyone who bothers to follow women’s sport would know that second tweet is absolute hysterical nonsense.

But of course some people here only care about women’s sport when this issue arises.

amacca

Is there anything to be said for separate transgender categories in sports?

There are separate categories for say younger and older athletes during a marathon/race......never saw anyone getting upset about that.....

I see separate categories in lots of sports all the time...

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807496#Comment_118807496

You'd still be a sh*t for calling someone a drama queen in those circumstances, none of those points would change that.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807408#Comment_118807408

I didn’t avoid answering your three questions! I answered them thoroughly, and gave my reasoning for my opinion. I don’t have to justify anything. The onus is on people who wish to perpetuate discrimination against people who are transgender, to justify that discrimination.

The best you’ve managed so far amounts to nothing more than a declaration based upon your own personal feelings. You hardly expect that the example of one individual in the US is sufficient evidence in support of your argument that their participation has any impact whatsoever on the future sporting careers of many women?

Actually I take that back, that’s exactly what you expect. It’s rather silly then that you would suggest it’s Guardian readers are easily triggered when you yourself are imagining an appalling vista for the future of women in sports on the basis of the participation of one individual who is transgender not being subjected to discrimination which is not based upon science or biology, but on what appears to be nothing more than your own personal feelings.

I make no apologies whatsoever for being unable to condense my response to your nonsense into 140 characters or less, but you’re going to have to do better than your argument consisting of your own personal beliefs in order to justify perpetrating discrimination against any group in Irish society on the basis of any characteristics which are protected in Irish law.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807872#Comment_118807872

Ok. Personal beliefs? What is a woman? Not your personal beliefs.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808123#Comment_118808123

There is no unwarranted discrimination as OEJ says there is. Male women are not female women therefore any discrimination is perfectly natural, because these two things are naturally different. It would be madness to say one can't discriminate between anything.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808123#Comment_118808123

You probably missed it, but I made the point already that I wasn’t going down the rabbit hole of defining what is or isn’t a woman. It’s just of no interest to me whatsoever and it doesn’t add anything to any discussion. Whatever you choose to define as a woman is entirely up to yourself, and other people are equally entitled to disagree. I don’t care for the question one way or the other any more than the question of what is a man.

My interest is solely from the perspective of human rights, and in accordance with that philosophy, it begins by declaring that all human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. Ok that’s pretty much the first article once you get past the preamble, and article 2 is worthy of note too, and article 3…. oh feck it they all are really, but the first two articles are a good basis from which to start -

https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808184#Comment_118808184

worthy of note:

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808289#Comment_118808289

I've seen this thrown about a lot.

Can you show me where it says Lia Thomas is the #1 ranked swimmer in all of the NCAA? I just can help but notice you and others saying it a lot but providing nothing other than a picture which says it and no link to where the picture came from.

I mean, I struggle to understand how anyone can come to that conclusion considering all of the variables and disciplines in swimming in the first place.

I also struggle to understand how winning one NCAA title as a 5th year and finishing 5th in another race makes her the #1 ranked swimmer in college.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808289#Comment_118808289

There’s nothing particularly noteworthy about your producing that image, only that it serves as evidence, if ever it were needed in the first place, that you have fcukall interest in either science or biology as it pertains to the participation of transgender athletes in women’s sports.

Granted the first clue was your use in your original post of the terms ‘anti science’ and ‘anti biology’, as if either term had any legitimacy. Admittedly the use of those terms is what piqued my interest in your original thread, which got no traction whatsoever until it was merged with this already existing thread.

Did you even bother to investigate the source of the claim in the image, or did you simply take it as fact because it sounded about right to you and supported your already existing beliefs? I did the legwork, and while there are a couple of references to the source of the claim, there is no evidence to support the actual claim itself -

“We fully support Lia Thomas in her decision to affirm her gender identity and to transition from a man to a woman. Lia has every right to live her life authentically,” the letter read. “However, we also recognize that when it comes to sports competition, that the biology of sex is a separate issue from someone’s gender identity. Biologically, Lia holds an unfair advantage over competition in the women’s category, as evidenced by her rankings that have bounced from #462 as a male to #1 as a female. If she were to be eligible to compete against us, she could now break Penn, Ivy, and NCAA Women’s Swimming records; feats she could never have done as a male athlete.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/02/03/lia-thomas-penn-swimming-teammates/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=wp_main

I don’t find anything particularly interesting about Lia Thomas if I’m being honest, though I can appreciate and understand how and why other people who are not me would consider Lia Thomas an inspirational role model. Brooke Forde who was competing against Thomas isn’t shy in making her opinions known on the matter -

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/brooke-forde-i-will-not-have-a-problem-racing-against-lia-thomas-at-ncaas/

However what’s most notable of all really is the unusual set of circumstances which led to Thomas, who we would otherwise never have heard of, coming to the attention of the Daily Mail in the first place -

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/lia-thomas-transgender-swimmer-ncaa-11647488571

https://www.newyorker.com/sports/sporting-scene/how-one-swimmer-became-the-focus-of-a-debate-about-trans-athletes/amp

And no doubt there will be many, many more people who are transgender will come to the attention of the Daily Mail should they attempt to achieve anything beyond the limitations of the imaginations of their regular, and a fact well-known by the Daily Mail, audience of easily triggered readers.

bewareofthedog

I've said this before.. the fact that discussions like this are entertained let alone farcical idiocy like this being actually implemented shows how much of a stranglehold the lunatics have over the asylum. Total and utter lunacy allowed to manifest itself by a high ranking convention of cowards.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118806100#Comment_118806100

She is an elite swimmer.

I think elite athletes have 'advantages' which makes them elite. These can be physical, genetic, psychological.

Whether her 'advantages' are greater than the swimmers she is competing against depends on whom she is competing against on the day.

Obviously Thomas did not have greater 'advantages' than Iszac Henig given Henig beat her.

Used to be these 'advantages' were called abilities and talent. Few people have them when it comes to sports. Even fewer have them in abundance.

Do you not think every successful elite athlete has an advantages over their competitors?

Could anyone off the street be a Williams sister?

A Johnny Sexton?

A Tom Brady?

A Megan Rapinoe?

Or do all of them have 'advantages'?

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807726#Comment_118807726

That would just encourage this nonsense more

tommybrees

What other species on this planet changes there sex?

Feel sorry in a way for trans because There absolutely brainwashed from media and doctors and the Internet

Multipass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808598#Comment_118808598

Frogs.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808294#Comment_118808294

Wonder if anyone had told Katie Ledecky?

She's going around thinking she's ranked #1 but apparently all the official sources are incorrect.

Ledecky wasted her time consistently winning as in the mind of the "we care about wimmenz sports" posse she doesn't even exist.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808644#Comment_118808644

I know the point you’re getting at, and I was going to get to Katie Ledecky.

She’s not in the NCAA but I can’t find anything, anywhere that has Lia Thomas as the number 1 women’s college swimmer.

Also agree with you on women’s sport and the fact they couldn’t give a shite about it at all. Anyone who has given women’s sport a chance would know that Lia Thomas is nowhere near at the top of her discipline.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808598#Comment_118808598

Clownfish, wrasses, moray eels, gobies and other fish species are known to change sex, including reproductive functions. A school of clownfish is always built into a hierarchy with a female fish at the top. When she dies, the most dominant male changes sex and takes her place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_change#:~:text=In%20animals,-A%20clownfish%20%E2%80%93%20a&text=Clownfish%2C%20wrasses%2C%20moray%20eels%2C,sex%20and%20takes%20her%20place.

https://www.inverse.com/science/animals-can-change-their-sex

You could have just googled it. But that wouldn't have confirmed your bias.

tommybrees

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808668#Comment_118808668

Clownfish is a very fitting term

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808667#Comment_118808667

Thomas hasn't won enough to appear on any world ranking lists I've been able to find.

TBH - must of the discourse about her reminds me of the kind of language used about Amelie Mauresmo.

Mauresmo was 'mannish', had unfair 'advantages', demands that she be test to make sure she was a 'real' woman.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808689#Comment_118808689

Goodness me thought Tommybrees. I asked a question and I was so sure the answer would confirm what I already believe I didn't bother to even google first. Turns out I was wrong.

Now, rather than admit I was wrong I'm going to make a snarky comment in an attempt to deflect from my mistake.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808316#Comment_118808316

When your eyes are telling you the truth AND you realise that most of the most prominent trans activists are saying that Thomas is doing horrific damage to the trans cause, and possibly destroying the future for trans kids, then you must must spend hours constructing a defence which you scarcely believe yourself.

All because you can’t concede that this is wrong. This is the worst case of the Emperors New Clothes I’ve seen for years.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807726#Comment_118807726

No need, the issue can be resolved very simply. Change all mens event to open category. Anyone can compete. The womens events will be changed to biological female events. All discussions regarding discrimination will then be moot.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808574#Comment_118808574

The Williams sisters got easily beaten by an average male in their sport.

Rapinoe and her team of "world beaters" got roundly beaten by a team of children.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808759#Comment_118808759

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/tennis-storm-over-mansized-mauresmo-1077214.html

I said the same language. And it was. Maurismo didn't conform to a set idea of what a woman should look like. Those attitudes are still with us.

Martina Hingis on Maurismo as " describing French player Amélie Mauresmo, who she had beaten in the Australian Open final earlier in the year as “half a man,”.

Thomas is a woman. And no amount of bullying by anonymous transphobes on the internet is going to change that.

And no-one believe for even half a second that any of those triggered by Thomas cares about women's sport.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808795#Comment_118808795

That dig at women athletes doesn't answer any question I asked.

It does give us an insight into how much you 'care' about women's sports tho.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808759#Comment_118808759

Have you any proof there that Lia Thomas is the NCAA’s #1 women’s swimmer?

Just asking again in case you missed my last post.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808802#Comment_118808802

Your response goes to show how honestly you are arguing.

The whole premise of this thread is that it is unfair for men to compete with women as more often than not, men are superior and an elite woman would be nowhere near the level of an elite male.

If mentioning the FACT that elite women are often beaten by average men when completing side by side is perceived as a "dig", then what's the **** point in talking to you.

How is anything I said a dig?

How does it show how much I care about women's sport? I'm not a fan of women's sport, but that doesn't mean that I think women should be expected to compete with biological men in a women's only event. I am not a fan of under 16's soccer but I also don't think that adults should be allowed play against them. You can have an opinion on what's fair or right without "caring" about the sport.

deconduo

She was 10s slower than the fastest man pre-transition and is 10s slower than the fastest woman post-transition. Seems like a pretty strong argument in favour of trans athletes, not a point against them.