Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

SnazzyPig

I've always been of the impression that those arguing for the inclusion of trans women in womens sport aren't really into sport.

shillyshilly

I don't know what the issue is, people need to just man up and get on with it

Gentlemanne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627561#Comment_118627561

Some posters just hate transgender people and will use any excuse to be critical. They don't care about women's sports really, they just use it as an opportunity to say how they feel about anyone with a non-standard gender identity.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118629012#Comment_118629012

That goes both ways .

It's political nonsense

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118626309#Comment_118626309

My post above stands and Turban is held in high regard. If all you can muster is ad hominem attacks without addressing my points then you do not have anything of substance to argue. I find it strange that you can have a cohort all clicking thanks on your links without addressing the points which gives me the sense that this debate is falling into a mob mentality. As I said Turban has a degree in neurobiology and is a tenured professor.

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627504#Comment_118627504

You could say it is not that important a topic, but it can have huge importance for the women that this can negatively affect.

And it can effectively end womens sport.

Lets say your a young girl and you are one of the best girls at some sports discipline or other, you look a shoe in for a sports scholarship to go to a decent university, a university there is no way in hell you would be able to afford otherwise.

Meanwhile there is a young lad that is reasonably ok at the same sport, but there is no way he is good enough to get a scholarship.

Then one day he declares he is trans and feels like he is a girl.

He gets the scholarship the girl was about to get.

What about the women that lose out on a once in a lifetime opportunity of going to an olympics because someone that used to be a lad a few years before suddenly now claims they are a woman.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118630900#Comment_118630900

You point to one doctor/academic that has written an article and use that basically as a QED for your point.

First off ever hear the old saying "one swallow does not make a summer" ?

Secondly the writer in question has skin in the game in that he works with trans youths.

Thirdly he is not an expert in the field he is talking about.

Someone can have a degree in microbiology, be a lecturer and professor teaching and researching in the field, but it doesn't make them an expert in say virology.

Trotting out this guys opinions would be akin to trotting out the opinions of Luke O'Neill on the subject.

Why can't you grasp that ?

Also adopting a condescending attitude doesn't help you win any argument either.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627504#Comment_118627504

Thats where you are wrong though and if you are going to claim this then give it some evidence.

------------

Lets take a look at the evidence

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0987705317300527

Our findings may suggest that cisgender males and females experience a dissimilar (early) differentiation of the right WMN and that such differentiation is less pronounced in transpeople.

This resulted from a study done by Universities in the Netherlands - indeed you can look at the authors and their qualifications.

------

Untreated MtFs and FtMs who have an early onset of their gender dysphoria and are sexually oriented to persons of their natal sex show a distinctive brain morphology, reflecting a brain phenotype. These phenotypes are different from those of heterosexual males or females; the differences affect the right hemisphere and cortical structures underlying body perception. 

The physiological changes that exist follow on that give the brain the psychological structure that exists. These changes go on to translate into how trans people feel and think as the opposite sex. You can draw from that , that there are physiological changes which translate into trans people feeling how they do.

What I do find amusing is we have an empty cavern here and a band of followers that hang on your word. Now if you want above to certainly give my point a rebuttal without attacking the credibility then certainly do so in good faith. In your answer try to take congnisance of scientific research, the evidence out there, the research methodology and avoid anything remotely resembling attacks on the nature of their credibility. You will find your answer much more well received.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118630939#Comment_118630939

Neurobiology is an appropriate field to understand the structures that lead to people being trans (or dysphoria as it used to be known and now redundant).

When you are on the precipice of trying to understand who you are as a person but society tries to denigrate it by dehumanising you and not listening to reasonable opinion then you create a militant group which is happening with a lot of the LGBT youth which takes away from a conversation.

Unfortauntely you need guidance and a mature hand to gently nudge you into conversation, Im quite happy to do that and am quite tolerant of your views even if I disagree with them. All I ask is you address the evidence above. You can link to papers, news articles and push your point. You have an ability to be articulate so I can take from that you can understand well what I am writing.

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118630900#Comment_118630900

He might be getting more "thanks" because people believe he's making better points than you are.

Throwing the soother out of the pram springs to mind when you have to criticise people that supports another person's opinion. You made a point, he clearly challenged it. One swallow doesn't make a summer, and although a specialist, Turban is only one person. Most logical people prefer evidence based on the popular scientific opinion among the community. That's why scientific papers need peer review before they're published.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118630981#Comment_118630981

As I said above if he posted the evidence to back up his assertion I would be quite willing to engage in faith in good debate and Im being civil here with him. He proposed I was QED in displaying Turbans opinion, Ive also linked to two more articles and their content. There is also Gender Dysphoria removed from the American Diaganosticiains Manual . When most of the large body of evidence points against it yet all I have as a rebuttal is an attack on the Turban (who specialised in Neurobiology) then there is not much to really coutner as there is nothing to rebutt.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118629012#Comment_118629012

I dont want to believe that is true and I do think if people here to do display sentiments that goes against respecting trans people then if they are articulating a point well made using evidence then I have no issue but yes I fear you might be correct and its a cohort.

Gatling

😂😂😂

Tantrum or what

Liberty_Bear

Worth reading - a short summart

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4987404/

For trans men, research indicates that those with early-onset gender dysphoria and who are gynephilic have brains that generally correspond to their assigned sex, but that they have their own phenotype with respect to cortical thickness, subcortical structures, and white matter microstructure, especially in the right hemisphere

Albeit the language has moved on but if we are talking biology then effectively its a closed argument. Trans people are born this way...

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118631139#Comment_118631139

Real transpeople most likely are born as described in the research, the elephant in the room is that not everyone who claims to be trans are trans.

Irish people will be very happy to see Leona Maguire played off the course by someone purporting to be trans after spending the majority of her life working to get to the top of her chosen sport..

Liberty_Bear

Would you say then that science probably needs to address it

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118631244#Comment_118631244

It would be less controversial to just have another category for Transpeople.

The focus on womens sport is because the advantage a man would have against women in competition which does not work in reverse.

If the Science is incontrovertible, then conceivably it may be an avenue to be explored but I dont know if Science will reach that stage in our lifetimes which is when the issue has come to the fore.

Could Science ever actually be trusted to give a definite answer?

From the research above that you posted, the word "indicates" pretty much shows that it is far from proven.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118631208#Comment_118631208

Trans people are trans people - this is just absolute drivel and nonsense over "real" trans people and trans people who are not "real"

Relax brah

Fair play to him I say

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118631510#Comment_118631510

Unfortunately there are some people who are genuinely trans and Will eventually go through gender surgery others like having the tag line of being tran and won't ever transition other than on social media platforms or gender fluid and change from day to day.

It's not so straight forward

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118631523#Comment_118631523

Surgery is not in anyway necessary or mandatory for being trans and sometimes impossible for medical reasons. There is no such thing as "real", "non real" or "genuine" trans. Trans people exist. Some people have surgery. Some people don't. Honestly some people need to just get over it.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118630952#Comment_118630952

But, what does that research actually say? I don't have access to it, so I can only quote the outline that is publicly available.

Title

"Brain sexual differentiation and effects of cross-sex hormone therapy in transpeople: A resting-state functional magnetic resonance study"

Conclusion

Our findings may suggest that cisgender males and females experience a dissimilar (early) differentiation of the right WMN and that such differentiation is less pronounced in transpeople.

It says there appears to be differences in brain structure between cis and trans people. But, what relevance does that have to the physiological differences between natal women and trans women, that relate to sport?

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118629012#Comment_118629012

But my earlier point stated I don't care about women's sport. When I say trans people shouldn't be allowed to participate in profession sports of their desires, I mean it. The point is is that my argument doesn't depend on whether I care about woman's sport or not. I don't as it it happens, why would I. If I was a woman I might. I am not basing my arguments on giving a fck about women's pro sport. It's a general point I am making.

@jmayo

See above. I get what you are saying about how it could go badly wrong for pro sports women. All I'm saying is that the argument that trans-women could have an advantage is not the killer argument. That is a side issue. The killer argument is that transwomen are not equivalent to women, and it is on that basis I would deny them entry to women's pro sport. We are reaching the same conclusion but just in a different way.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118630952#Comment_118630952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118630952#Comment_118630952

What I do find amusing is we have an empty cavern here and a band of followers that hang on your word. Now if you want above to certainly give my point a rebuttal without attacking the credibility then certainly do so in good faith. In your answer try to take congnisance of scientific research, the evidence out there, the research methodology and avoid anything remotely resembling attacks on the nature of their credibility. You will find your answer much more well received.

What I find amusing is the idea that anyone would hang on my word. Whatever that's supposed to mean anyway. What an odd thing to say. I didn't know I was held in such high regard here, as seems to be your perception. I highly doubt it lol

My answer to you is, I've read many similar such reports and they all end the same. No conclusive answer. Anyway, we've been over all this in other threads past and that's a bit off topic. Hope this reply receives you well. Best regards.

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118630976#Comment_118630976

And here we go again with the superiority.

"Me stupid, me need smart liberty_bear to show him error of my ways."

And once again you fail to notice I never ever argued trans people do not exist.

I never argued there is no such thing as legitimate trans people.

I have pointed out that the current situation is very open to being abused by men who can see a loophole.

And as sure as hell it will be abused by the types of people and indeed states that have long been linked to drug cheating in sport.

I did not argue that your aforementioned expert is not an expert in neurobiology and probably understanding the mental problems of someone who is trans.

But saying all that he is not a sport scientist that deals in the physiological aspects of a sports person, he is not an expert in the anatomical differences between the male and female bodies.

And no matter how many contortions, changing of gender labels or legal arguments you and others on your side make, no amount of drugs or no amount of surgery can turn a born and reared to adulthood male into a female.

If there were no differences between the sexes there would never have been separate competitions for women in the first place.

FFS how hard is that to grasp.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118629012#Comment_118629012

Ah FFS.

Yeah lets shut down the conversation and label people phobic.

Liberty_Bear

From your post above and this will show you what I meant when I asked you to connect the dots

Then one day he declares he is trans and feels like he is a girl.

He gets the scholarship the girl was about to get.

It does not work like that. There are levels of testosterone that they would need to have. If they were a boy then transitioned they would need to have their hormone levels down to a certain level below 10. The simple declaration that they are now a girl does not hold any ground.

I never argued that you said that there was no trans people, in fact you have not said that but what the argument does by not looking at the finer nuances fails to 'read between the lines'

But saying all that he is not a sport scientist that deals in the physiological aspects of a sports person, he is not an expert in the anatomical differences between the male and female bodies.

The general grounding in medecine plus his masters in Neurobiology makes him a prime candidate to understand it from all angles. He does medecine then specialises. Sports Science studies a broad range of disciplines - lets take the UL course - look at the syllabus - https://www.ul.ie/courses/bachelor-science-sport-and-exercise-sciences - Now take into account as a comparator what is studied in medicine - which of the two are more detailed in their approach to physiology (https://www.ul.ie/courses/bachelor-medicine-bachelor-surgery-graduate-entry)

No superiority complex here but a guiding hand to stop you straying into all sorts of realms that are not very connected.

In post no 209 - you said

So maybe when you come back with a few specialists in sports medicine, a few specialising in physiology arguing the same we might give your rebuttal some credence.

What you effectively done was dismiss the opinions without taking into account if sports science could be seen as a discipline with more insight than that of a person whom has achieved both medical degree and practiced medicine for years. Your dismissal was summaried in that you wanted a few 'a few specialising in physiology '. At no point did you attempt to enter into the discussion anyone who had that training or qualifications (summarily someone who was competent).

So effectively - and Im making this straight forward for you

So what you have to answer is

Is Sports Science a more definite science than Medicine in regards to how trans people take part

Is a legal change enough to allow someone to enter their chosen sport as their identified gender

Now if you can dodge giving any more red herrings and answer the questions above then we might be on to a discussion. I have my own reservations about the Tavistok clinic so there is a little bit of common ground but I want to tease out the above. The obfuscation by people throwing in arugments surrounding law, self identification does not get into the nub of the matter.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118636962#Comment_118636962

I have pointed out that the current situation is very open to being abused by men who can see a loophole.

I am proposing to shut down the loophole possibility altogether. That no such think can possibly happen.

That is why I'm saying that it's best for all if trans people are excluded from participating in pro sport of their trans gender. That'll fix it, once and for all.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118638321#Comment_118638321

That's common sense and that's exactly what people to see ,

The problem is too many people trying to educate people using google ,I found it on the internet so it must be true

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118638364#Comment_118638364

There is no such thing as trans being integral in life, as some are promoting. It's an 'other' issue, in exactly the same way homosexuality is an 'other' issue. I'm happy with that as a gay person myself, because I know it means feck all in my life. My lived life is virtually identical to heterosexual peoples lives.

Trans on the other hand causes so many practical problems, such as the sports one. I'm sorry but frankly it's tough luck if you are born Trans and you are exuded from very small aspects of life. They can live their lives virtually identical to most cis gendered peoples lives, and it is all those rotten progressive lefties that are kicking up a stink about these minor issues.

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627580#Comment_118627580

Notwithstanding the fact that this thread is about a person winning an athletics competition and not about a hypothetical situation about Jim Furyk becoming transgender, the fact that he can drive further is not really relevant as there is a lot more to golf than long drives. But a good example of a transgender person who competed in golf is Mianne Bagger. If you look at her record it shows that hyperbolic arguments unhelpful.

when people use examples of Djokovic or Fyurk as examples of why transgender people should not play sport it does nothing to progress any meaningful discourse. Do people really believe that a person only takes a decision to transition simply to progress in Sport rather than because of a fundamental belief in their gender?

As what i said previously regarding the fact that there is so much more discussion in a thread about a transgender athletics win rather than an athletics thread it does appear that transgender is the issue rather than athletics/sport. Especially when hypothetical examples of some of the worlds best male sport stars are used to base discussion on.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118638496#Comment_118638496

Notwithstanding the fact that this thread is about a person winning an athletics competition and not about a hypothetical situation about Jim Furyk becoming transgender, the fact that he can drive further is not really relevant as there is a lot more to golf than long drives. But a good example of a transgender person who competed in golf is Mianne Bagger. If you look at her record it shows that hyperbolic arguments unhelpful.

In Snooker women are now recently permitted to play on the mens pro snooker circuit. A woman is never going to beat a man in snooker, in a sport that isn't even physical. Not at the top level anyway. A woman will never be the world snooker champion when they compete with men.

Lots of woman play snooker, but none of them will ever be a Ronnie Sullivan or anything on that kind of level.

How do you explain that, when it's not a physical sport?