Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

Shield

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805033#Comment_118805033

"The fact that the University of Pennsylvania swimmer has soared from a mid-500s ranking (554th in the 200 freestyle) in men’s competition to the top-ranked swimmer in women’s competition tells the story of the unfairness which is unfolding at the NCAA level."

Enjoy being forced to agree that 2+2=5.

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/a-look-at-the-numbers-and-times-no-denying-the-advantages-of-lia-thomas/

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805033#Comment_118805033

Making you sympathetic to the Kremlin and Putin is a bit of a bloody reach.

Shield

Sometimes, a picture really does speak 1,000 words:

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/transgender-woman-lia-thomas-of-the-university-of-news-photo/1386084885

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118802821#Comment_118802821

Contrary to your own feelings on the matter, it’s a fact that because of science and medicine, humans have been overcoming biology for some time now. I do understand of course that anyone unwilling to use your personal feelings as an objective standard by which to determine anything would be wrong, from your perspective.

Your declaring that it’s wrong, isn’t going to change the fact that more and more sports organisations are recognising the rights of people who are transgender to participate in sports in the same way as it was recognised that women had the right to participate in sports where discrimination against women is what previously prevented them from doing so, because at the time, and still to some extent today, sports were thought to be exclusively a male pursuit, and allowing women to participate was declared as being wrong.

It’s for this reason that sex segregation exists in sports, not because of science or biology, but simply because of peoples feelings on women’s participation in sports. There are still a few people who feel compelled to express their objections to women’s participation in sports, and social media enables them to reach a wider audience in order to perpetuate prejudice and discrimination based upon nothing more than their own feelings on the matter -

Many of those who oppose transgender athletes like Lia being able to participate in sports claim to be "protecting women's sports." As a woman in sports, I can tell you that I know what the real threats to women's sports are: sexual abuse and harassment, unequal pay and resources and a lack of women in leadership. Transgender girls and women are nowhere on this list. Women's sports are stronger when all women—including trans women—are protected from discrimination, and free to be their true selves.

https://www.newsweek.com/why-im-proud-support-trans-athletes-like-lia-thomas-opinion-1689192?amp=1

A third category simply perpetuates discrimination, and would do nothing to address existing discrimination and prejudice which prevents anyone from participating in sports in accordance with their gender.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118802745#Comment_118802745

Well, the IOC went a bit further than that even, but you have the general gist of it -

The IOC also said medical testing and "invasive physical examinations" used to verify an athlete's gender were "disrespectful" and "potentially harmful".

"We really want to make sure that athletes are not pressured or coerced into making a harmful decision about their bodies," said Magali Martowicz, IOC head of human rights.

The guidance stresses that athletes should be part of the decision-making process.

It adds that restrictions should be based on robust credible research and that sports should follow all the criteria to prove a disproportionate advantage or safety risk exists.

"The IOC recognises that it must be within the remit of each sport and its governing body to determine how an athlete may be at a disproportionate advantage compared with their peers, taking into consideration the nature of each sport," reads the framework.

"The IOC is therefore not in a position to issue regulations that define eligibility criteria for every sport, discipline or event across the very different national jurisdictions and sport systems."

https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/59312313.amp

The IOC recognises that the matter isn’t just a question of science, biology, medicine and so on, but also involves questions of ethics, human rights, laws in national jurisdictions and sports systems and providing for everyone to have the opportunity to participate in sports in order to create a better world thorough sports. The IOC are adhering to their founding principles -

https://olympics.com/ioc/principles

It’s important to make the point too that the IOC guidelines are just that - guidelines. They are not legally binding on any sports organisations. Sports organisations can continue to make their own rules which are neither based upon biology nor science, but upon their own standards in accordance with the laws in the jurisdictions in which they operate. The IOC policy isn’t that far from how Irish equality legislation applies - it prohibits discrimination, while allowing for certain circumstances on a case by case basis where it can be argued that the discrimination is a necessary means of achieving a legitimate aim.

The IOC also recognises that there are laws in some jurisdictions which mean that men and women are discriminated against on the basis of their sexual orientation such as Iran, where it is claimed that homosexuality does not exist, and people who are homosexual are coerced into undergoing unnecessary medical procedures to conform to cultural expectations of men and women -

https://qz.com/889548/everyone-treated-me-like-a-saint-in-iran-theres-only-one-way-to-survive-as-a-transgender-person/amp/

Iran is by no means the only jurisdiction where the concept of human rights is turned on it’s head in order to conform to political beliefs; politicians in the US are also scrambling to introduce legislation which limits or prohibits the participation of people who are transgender in public life, under the guise of suggesting that they are intended to protect women and children. Such legislation does no such thing -

https://www.hrc.org/press-releases/2021-officially-becomes-worst-year-in-recent-history-for-lgbtq-state-legislative-attacks-as-unprecedented-number-of-states-enact-record-shattering-number-of-anti-lgbtq-measures-into-law

It’s for the reasons above that while I understand the OP’s intention to provide evidence that counters a particular narrative about people who are transgender participating in sports, in my opinion it’s only perpetuating a rather ugly narrative based upon anecdotes as opposed to anything approaching scientific evidence of anything one way or the other. In reality there simply isn’t sufficient data to determine anything conclusive about the participation of people who are transgender in sports one way or the other. There are no large-scale studies have been done on the subject of the participation of people who are transgender in sports, and data based upon other studies and small-scale studies lack scientific merit to the degree that the only conclusion can be drawn from them is that they are inconclusive, and interpretations are based upon already existing prejudices and biases as opposed to objective standards.

It’s for these reasons that the IOC policy maintains that there should be no assumption of any advantage on the basis of gender identity, let alone an advantage so disproportionate that it would justify an individual’s exclusion from competition simply on that basis alone.

Galwayguy35

So are the women who change to men competing in the male events?

Bannasidhe

Oh no! Who will protect men's sports from Transgender men?Those poor little boys who endure so much are unfairly disadvantaged by 'biological women' - only 'logical' thing to do is segregate the sports then poorly fund and report what the 'girls' are doing.

https://www.outsideonline.com/health/training-performance/longer-race-stronger-we-get/

https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2020/09/maya-gabeira-surfed-biggest-wave-year/616216/

https://www.espn.com/shooting/story/_/id/31828521/10m-air-rifle-sport-tokyo-olympics-where-women-outgun-men

Gee. It seems there are sports when men do not have a genetic advantage over women, in fact the opposite is true.

It's like this isn't about fairness for women athletes at all. But something entirely different.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805908#Comment_118805908

can you answer a simple question?

Do you think that Thomas has an unfair physiological advantage over the biologically female swimmers in the race or not?

It's kind of funny the logical absurdity you arrive at when you start to accept these things..

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805864#Comment_118805864

How do you explain Thomas jumping from 462nd in his class as a man to 1st as a woman in such a short period of time? Do you deny that he has any physiological advantage over the female swimmers? What would you say to the female swimmers whose dreams are being destroyed by Thomas? What actual message would you have for them. I’m very interested in your outlook.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805889#Comment_118805889

Some do. Perhaps the most well-known is Chris Mosier who is a very outspoken advocate for people who are transgender participating in sports. It was because of their campaigning that the IOC removed the condition that men who wanted to compete in women’s events had to undergo an orchiectomy in order to be considered for eligibility, as well as few other criteria -

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/25/ioc-rules-transgender-athletes-can-take-part-in-olympics-without-surgery

There have never been any restrictions on women who wanted to compete in the mens events. There are other considerations in sports besides just participation in competition. Sponsorship is also a huge part of sports, and the question of corporate sponsorship raises some interesting questions which impact upon the perception and participation of people who are transgender in sports. A good example of this phenomenon is Nike’s sponsorship of Chris Mosier, and whether Nike are genuinely interested in any commitment to gender equality and inclusion, or whether their sponsorship and advertising campaigns are nothing more than a disingenuous attempt to increase their already substantial profits from sales of their products by increasing brand awareness -

Overall, Nike’s purported commitment to gender equality and inclusion is not reflected in their commercials. As such, their activism regarding gender equality may come across as insincere. Some viewers may therefore feel alienated or excluded from the institution of sports owing to Nike’s commitment to portraying a narrow definition of appropriate athletic behavior. Consumers may additionally be skeptical of Nike and other brands that take similar activist stances, considering the evidence that these progressive attitudes may merely be disingenuous marketing. Hegemonic masculine ideals continue to be strictly reinforced in both sports and media, and our results provide evidence that even companies who engage in brand activism are restrained by this narrow definition of masculinity and reproduce it in their commercials. Furthermore, in light of Nike’s prominent role in the world of sports media, their commercials may indicate that inclusion and acceptance of nontraditional athletes in mainstream media, and perhaps sports in general, has not been achieved in ways that we as consumers may be led to believe. As a result, the health benefits of sport participation may not be as broadly accessible as they could be. As brand activism becomes an increasingly common practice, further research is needed to explore how the adoption of this approach may be affecting sales and brand image, as well as how consumers are interpreting and reacting to companies who engage in this approach. If such brand activism could be employed to open up sport participation, and the associated health benefits, to a wider audience, a broader discussion of the moral components of corporate-related sports activities is needed.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8345737/

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118806126#Comment_118806126

On the understanding that I’d only be speculating as there isn’t sufficient data to determine anything conclusive -

l would suggest that one of the most influential aspects in their performance is the fact that they are now permitted to participate in competitions as their preferred gender. There is plenty of evidence to support the idea that when people are not being discriminated against and do not have to hide who they are, this has a positive impact on their mental health, which I think you will agree is an important aspect in sporting performance. I don’t share your opinion that individuals feelings aren’t an important aspect of participation in competition, but more on that in a minute.

I don’t deny that on the face of it at least, from purely observation alone, there’s one distinguishing physiological factor that Thomas has over and above (quite literally) their competition - they appear to be much taller, which is a considerable advantage in swimming -

https://www.a3performance.com/blogs/a3-performance/swimmers-tall-and-short

According to this article at least, the average height of the competition on the Yale men’s team is 5’11 (180cm metric), considerably more vertically challenged than their Ivy League counterparts (Thomas competes for Penn) -

https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2012/09/11/swimmers-overcome-height-challenges/

I couldn’t find a definitive measurement of Thomas’ height, but it doesn’t help when the same source reports their height as being anywhere between 5’8” and 6’1” -

Lia Thomas has an estimated height of approximately 5 feet 8 inches tall. Her height is significantly an added advantage to her swimming career.

-

Lia Thomas stands tall at a height of 6 feet 1 inch, 185 cm in centimetres and 1.85 m in meters.

https://vimbuzz.com/lia-thomas-height-how-tall-is-lia-thomas-swimmer/

https://vimbuzz.com/lia-thomas-height-what-is-lia-thomas-height/

I don’t imagine puberty could be responsible for such a discrepancy in reported height in the space of less than a day. However, that aside, the pool record set by a woman is 4:30:81, a record set by Leah Smith in 2016 -

The NCAA, meet, American and U.S. Open record for the event is 4:24.06 set by Stanford’s Katie Ledecky in 2017. The pool record is 4:30.81 set by Virginia’s Leah Smith in 2016.

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/2022-ncaa-womens-championships-lia-thomas-takes-top-seed-in-500-freestyle/

For context, Thomas’ time if you’ll remember was 4:33:24, in the 500 yard freestyle event. Americans are quite rigid about maintaining the the imperial system of measurement, but for convenience, I did the math - it’s 457.2m. Leah Smith is 5’10”, an Olympic swimmer on the US women’s team, and comes from a family of elite athletes -

Smith was born in Pittsburgh to a family of many elite athletes. She is a great-granddaughter of World Series champion baseball player Jimmy Smith and great-niece of boxer Billy Conn. Her sister Aileen currently swims for Columbia University.

A graduate of Oakland Catholic High School, Smith committed to swim for the University of Virginia in 2013. She earned her B.A. degree in May 2017.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leah_Smith_(swimmer)

Ledecky who holds the record for the event with a time of 4:24:06 is 6ft and also has the considerable influence of her family background in sports -

Ledecky began swimming at the age of six due to the influence of her older brother, Michael, and her mother, who swam for the University of New Mexico. In Bethesda, she attended Little Flower School through eighth grade and graduated from Stone Ridge School of the Sacred Heart in 2015.[19] During her high-school swimming career, Ledecky twice set the American and US Open record in the 500-yard freestyle, and she twice set the national high-school record in the 200-yard freestyle. Ledecky finished her high-school career as the holder of the Stone Ridge school record in every swimming event except the 100-meter breaststroke.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katie_Ledecky

There are a multitude of other factors of course which contribute to anyones success, or indeed lack thereof, in anything, and so to anyone who feels that it is Lia Thomas’ participation in swimming has destroyed their dreams (I’d be thinking anyone who thinks like that is a drama queen tbh, but I wouldn’t say it to their face), I’d be suggesting that they shouldn’t give up on their dreams and they shouldn’t give up on doing something that they love just because they were beaten today.

I’d say that to anyone though competing in anything who was passionate about the activity in which they were participating, regardless of their gender, sex, sexual orientation, ethnicity, etc, or wherever they placed in competition, because whether you agree or not, peoples feelings are important, and I wouldn’t encourage anyone to be an obnoxious cnut, simply because they imagine they can get away with it. It’s not a very sporting attitude for one thing, and it’s just being a cnut for the sheer gallery of it, which is a losers mentality, and certainly not an attitude I’d associate with anyone who I would encourage children to look up to as any sort of a role model.

Shield

The more words you need to use in any given argument, the less likely your argument will be coherent.

Lia Thomas is a male, who benefitted from male puberty, competing against females. This is unfair.

walshb

When did these yards races come back in fashion, eh?!

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807056#Comment_118807056

No, it’s not unfair.

walshb

What’s with the swimsuits wedgies…decorum, ladies?

AllForIt

ignore..posted incomplete post

JP Liz V1

Well Done 👏

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805908#Comment_118805908

Are the ultra-endurance sports even segregated in the first place? The reason female categories exist is to promote fair competition for those competing, even at the ultra-endurance level (where more strength and power is less of an issue) it's not a case of the female gender dominating the competition like it would be in other sports for males (and it's a fairly niche area in the first place with some winners being first time competitors). Horse racing, darts and even motorsport are open to and have females compete against males (even if they make up a very low % of the competitors), male sports people would welcome more competitors into their category, as long as it was safe to do so (which makes most contact sports off limits). Is there a rule stopping a female competing in the "male" 100m sprint category, other than the qualifying requirements?

@One eyed Jack

There are a multitude of other factors of course which contribute to anyones success, or indeed lack thereof, in anything, and so to anyone who feels that it is Lia Thomas’ participation in swimming has destroyed their dreams (I’d be thinking anyone who thinks like that is a drama queen tbh, but I wouldn’t say it to their face), I’d be suggesting that they shouldn’t give up on their dreams and they shouldn’t give up on doing something that they love just because they were beaten today.

If they had lost out on a scholarship that let them pursue the sport, giving up on their dreams may be enforced (and tbh, thinking they're a drama queen, even internally, makes you a bit of a sh*t, if that circumstance came about).

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118806940#Comment_118806940

All of this you tippy tapped out on your keyboard at great length in order to avoid answering 3 simple questions.

Trying to justify prioritizing the feelings of one or two men over the future sporting careers of many women is exhausting but you’re determined to keep it up.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805864#Comment_118805864

Your declaring that it’s wrong, isn’t going to change the fact that more and more sports organisations are recognising the rights of people who are transgender to participate in sports in the same way as it was recognised that women had the right to participate in sports where discrimination against women is what previously prevented them from doing so, because at the time, and still to some extent today, sports were thought to be exclusively a male pursuit, and allowing women to participate was declared as being wrong.

It’s for this reason that sex segregation exists in sports, not because of science or biology, but simply because of peoples feelings on women’s participation in sports. There are still a few people who feel compelled to express their objections to women’s participation in sports, and social media enables them to reach a wider audience in order to perpetuate prejudice and discrimination based upon nothing more than their own feelings on the matter -

Yes you've made this point before I recall.

So, according to you sex based sports categories are down to discrimination in the first place, to somehow keep women out of 'real' sport, away from the men.

In that case then the better social justice cause would be to end that discrimination, which would if successful result in no sex based categories at all, just one, for people, and gender wouldn't come into it. You would not have a problem with this because you've consistently dismissed all augments related to biological and physical advantages.

As it's is, you're advocating for trans-women's participation in woman's sport, at the same time saying that women's sport is discriminatory in the first place. So it's like you're saying that trans-women should be equally discriminated against like all the rest of the cis-women who are discriminated against in sport.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118806940#Comment_118806940

Just stop. This is just embarrassing at this stage. You are trying to argue for the inclusion of males in female only sports categories, and it is impossible to justify. The studies have been done, and the data is in. I previously posted all the proof from respected scientific journals, but it was deleted. We are in a situation where peer reviewed papers from biologists and sports scientists is being deleted because it doesn't fit with the ideological narrative.

But guess what? It doesn't matter. The papers in question still exist and the main one is now in the top three of all sports science papers and in the top 2000 of over 21 millions scientific papers ever published and has now been cited dozens of times. When ideologies and science clash, the ideology will eventually lose out no matter what attempts are made to suppress it. All that will happen to a forum that only permits junk science and opinion and bans actual science is that serious people will no longer participate and will move on to other forums where facts and evidence aren't banned. All that remains of the original forum is an echo chamber that no one takes seriously. I certainly won't be bothering to post scientific peer reviewed papers somewhere that just deletes them if they don't like them. I decided to take the argument elsewhere and am glad that I did. Yesterday alone, I posted a tweet that so far has been viewed over 6 million times and has received over 75,000 likes. You have already lost this debate, you just don't realise it yet.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807324#Comment_118807324

If they had lost out on a scholarship that let them pursue the sport, giving up on their dreams may be enforced (and tbh, thinking they're a drama queen, even internally, makes you a bit of a sh*t, if that circumstance came about).

I won’t call you a drama queen for suggesting it (but you just know I’m thinking it internally anyway), but your argument is ridiculous for a number of reasons -

1. Losing out on a scholarship does not force anyone to give up on their dreams, certainly not in countries where there are a number of avenues to pursue their dreams should anyone choose to do so.
2. Implying that it is unfair that anyone lose out on a scholarship also applies to students who are transgender, in that they too should not be discriminated against by virtue of their gender identity in participating in sports in the pursuit of a sports scholarship.
3. The same argument that someone else is responsible for anyone losing out on a scholarship applies regardless of anyones sex, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, etc.
4. Far more influential in educational attainment or academic and sporting achievements are socioeconomic factors such as family status, parents education level and a support network, as evidenced by the fact that only 2% of students in the US in Bachelors degree programmes receive scholarships -

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/myths-about-athletic-scholarships

There are certainly arguments can be made both for and against scholarship programmes and their effect in education, but that’s another days discussion.

Mike Murdock

Let’s start at the basics here @One eyed Jack. Define what a woman is. Please.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807481#Comment_118807481

Yesterday alone, I posted a tweet that so far has been viewed over 6 million times and has received over 75,000 likes. You have already lost this debate, you just don't realise it yet.

That’s not a very convincing argument for your position tbh. It’s simply an indication that you’re in a bigger echo chamber where your opinions are finally being taken seriously. Pewdiepie has over 100m subs on YouTube, most people here have never heard of him, nor care who he is in any case. Using your rationale he should be taken seriously by serious people.

Good luck with that 👍

mjsc1970

My head hurts at this stage

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807523#Comment_118807523

Respectfully Mike, I’m not going down that rabbit hole. It’s just not of any interest to me tbh.

Shield

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807523#Comment_118807523

Since your interlocutor has declined to answer, I’m happy to clarify that a woman is an adult human female.

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807523#Comment_118807523

no real need to, tbh.

I don't think anyone who believes that transwomen are women, can't see and accept the differences that make trans women trans.

It's more about if these differences should be taken into account in deciding whether trans women should be allowed compete in women's events.

I think most people are of the opinion that they should

Quantum Erasure

I posted this earlier in the thread

(the full bars represent the advantage of males over females, the dark blue represents the reduction in that advantage after a year of hormone therapy)

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807412#Comment_118807412

Further to this, I would also say, that it may very well be the case, historically, that women's segregated sport came about, at the time, because of a discriminatory attitude to women in sport that prevailed back then, as you say @One eyed Jack (Not that I know for certain if that is actually the case)

Regardless, I have no doubt, if there were no such thing as female discrimination in sport, we would still have sport 'segregated' separated by sex.