Ireland badly needs a new centre-right party - Here's my proposal

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118029780#Comment_118029780

I think it is perception if a party is 'soft right or middle of the road' they can hedge their bets a bit.

It amuses me that the mention of 'right' always seems to conjure up images of 'evil' in online debates - or print media. And the 'left' are viewed to be the crowd that are hip and with it.

Probably the most balance government of the would be something like a PD's equivalent with one of FF /FG - with a Labour/SD and the Greens thrown in. They could keep each other in check.

I honestly often wonder why Ireland bothers having Elections - there is no extreme left or right and any extremes become centrist fairly quick. It will be interesting to see what SF do if they do get into government. As it will likely have to be a coalition. So most of their leftist tendencies will have to be tempered.

Unless they go for a left wing coalition - PBP - Socialist Party and so on.

But I just don't see it happening as I doubt the PBP, Socialist Party will ever have sufficient numbers.

SF could be forced to go more left of centre with time and fill the SD/Labour void.

-

Isn't this Renua crowd supposed to be the new more right wing party

https://www.renuaireland.com/

Describing itself as 'socially conservative'.

In the 2020 GE Renua had 11 candidates none were elected and they only got  socially conservative party 5473 first preference votes.

--

It seems Ireland just does not want a new Centre Right Wing Party who even leans slightly more right - I wonder is it perception though. Conservatism is viewed as backward. No thought about various shades of conservatism. On the Right people wear ties, suits - and are normally highly educated. This is a hard one to market to the masses in this day and age - which can come across as 'cold/distant. You would never see a TD of a party leaning right with a Mick Wallace/Ming haircut. Plus with casual clothes - such as Boyd-Barrett's denim shirt or Mick's jeans.

The wearing of a tie seems to be an anathema these days for some political persuasions in the Dail - as it goes against the easy going style of the left. Even SF potential future leaders Pearse Doherty/Eoin O'Broin do not wear a tie. And they are not supposed to be as left wing as the PBP - Social Party etc.

The main issue about any new centre right party - they would have to make the tie seem trendy again. As anyone thought about dickiebows? Less cold and threatening than a tie (especially if bright coloured) but screams intellectual and a bit different to the status quo.

A suit and tie (top button of shirt closed) still echoes the Anglo Irish Bank fiasco etc to many. Cold standoffish, big business etc. IMO the coloured dickie bow, is the way to go for any new centre right party.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118035234#Comment_118035234

We're all aware of you're zealous attitudes when it comes to markets

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118035293#Comment_118035293

hahaha, you gotta love conservatives again! yup markets will be a critical part of getting us out of our current mess!

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118034657#Comment_118034657

But it's also their voters paying in far more than their fair share in taxes and getting nothing back out of the system. 

Nothing back out of the system? Our taxes pay for healthcare (which absolutely needs to be improved, yes, but vested interests are doing their best to shaft Sláintecare!) - and even the ones on the top VHI plan benefitted from the covid vaccination programme! - existing and new infrastructure including roads and public transport, the Gardaí and courts, and so much more, not least of which is the education system.

Don't have kids going to school? You still benefit! Much better to be surrounded by educated and socialised people than the alternative!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118035054#Comment_118035054

Did she really? If you were a stockbroker living in Surrey - yes. If you lived north of the M25? Not so much.

iColdFusion

The only way some new party would succeed would be if it had an Elon Musk / Barack Obama type leader that is so smart and charismatic they carry the whole party, a lot of people when they go to vote are just voting for a party and not necessarily the local candidate, SF proved this in the last election.

Plus realistically a new party would need to do some Cambridge Analytica type shenanigans to ever win a majority, a lot of Irish people are happier with the devil they know.

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118035234#Comment_118035234

The value of my assets are no near as good as the value of the €500k house my cousin lives in for life and neither herself or her boyfriend have never paid a penny tax in their lives. Well she did tell me she paid tax when she worked in Dunnes for a week in 2001. Oh and she keeps telling me she pays vat. Oh and a €3.50 prescription charge.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118035464#Comment_118035464

a lot of Irish people are happier with the devil they know.

Well centrist/right-leaning ones are. There's always been churn among parties on the left but the other side seems intent on sticking with FF & FG until the end of time...

Murph85

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/taoiseach-pressures-noonan-to-cut-taxes-for-middle-income-families-29863096.html

effectively the only ones paying any tax worth mentioning here, are the mid to high and high earners... there is as good as no lpt. You can now drive virtually for free with an electric car, after you have paid thousands in vat and vrt of course...

That graph from 2013 is an absolute disgrace! To say Ireland is right wing , when ffg have been ruling the country for nearly a hundred years ! Friends of big business for sure!

Not friends of the little man, even if he or she is on 200k !

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118035516#Comment_118035516

yup, so the big question is, why is the price of property so high? answer, because of policies that have been enacted, and still are, to continually push them up, i.e. the fundamental basis of modern political and economic ideologies, of both the political left and right! but no, its clearly to do with the lazy welfare classes!!!! oh and yea, they do actually pay consumption taxes, and yes, you are paying far more taxes than them, as explained earlier, taxation under these ideologies, has been slowly moving away from capital and wealth, which is primarily held in the value of assets, such as property etc, and moved towards labour and consumption, i.e. why you ve been paying more taxes than them, but again, all of these issues are clearly their fault!

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118035566#Comment_118035566

You are not convincing any tax payers out there I dare say.

Do you think perhaps people who dont pay taxes and get far more than the people who do pay lots of taxes is a bit off?

I just had to shell out €1500 for my commuter ticket, including a tax rebate on it.

My cousin and her husband get the same ticket for nothing. And they dont even commute.

So so many example of that kind of thing.

To answer your question the price of property is so high (only to tax payers mind you) is that way because government brought in rent controls.

The spiral from there and the never ending legislation has made rents and availability so bad that people are desperate to get out of the rental trap.

So they are bidding obscene sums on properties that are not worth that so as not top pay rents that keep going up.

Then what happens, the councils bid against them and bid up those poperties even higher. Using the poor tax payers own money to fcuk them over at every chance they get.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118029956#Comment_118029956

If you think you can find enough people that believe in your BS, then start one and stop sitting your ass thinking about it! I very much doubt you could be bothered in reality as it would require actual work and even if you did you'd fail miserably.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118035516#Comment_118035516

Sonde like a customer for CAB - 500k house with no visible means of support. I very much doubt that is even close to the real story.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118035233#Comment_118035233

And you think for a minute that you will convince Irish voters that being where the UK is right now is a good thing.... they are not capable of paying down their national debt and the average gap per capita is 40% lower than Ireland.... Irish voters just aren't that dumb.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118035601#Comment_118035601

once again, the falls guys are ultimately the working taxpayers, this is a fundamental part of modern political and economic ideologies, as explained! as always, if you think welfare is what its cracked up to be, try it for a while, you might be surprised! again, yes, working taxpayers are getting screwed, and big time in all of this, at some stage, we re gonna have to stand up and say enough, and stop pointing the finger at the usual suspects, i.e. welfare classes, foreigners etc etc etc, as it is in fact these fundamental ideologies being enacted by both the political left and right.

once again, the price of property has truly taken off since the introduction of these political and economic ideologies, which began globally in the 70's and 80's, ireland was a little latter into this game, ultimately when we joined the euro, and off we went........ this is what we call a primarily fire sector lead economy(finance, insurance and real estate), of which we re still experiencing. yes you are correct, this approach to economics and politics has been driven from within our political systems and institutions, on both the left and right, oh and credit has been the form of money of choice in doing so, that comes from private sector financial institutions, we call these banks! graph,

Ireland Debt.jpg

once again, included!

again, the whole point of these ideologies is to fcuk you over, and thats how its being done, i.e. nothing to be doing with welfare classes and the scary foreigners etc etc!

Jim2007

These kind of threads are really amusing.... you got people saying Ireland needs this or that.... just so long as they don't have to lift a figure to make it happen, which of course in reality means that they are really not a believer either, because if they were they'd do something more that tapping a keyboard.

You think Ireland needs a new party - start one and see how far you get.... There is a very good reason why none of these new parties set up over the last few decades have failed miserably - the majority of Irish voters are not interested in them.

You think Ireland needs a new party, then stop talking about it and go make it happen.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118034751#Comment_118034751

Let us make voting great again LUMVGA. On a serious note I think the next election will be the first time I will not use my vote in over 20 years. I have become so disillusioned with politics.

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118035042#Comment_118035042

I must have imagined all the "conservative"/ Iona bots with their newspapers columns and radio airtime

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118035797#Comment_118035797

I think you have, the only time they got any airtime was in the abortion referendum.

Besides that they are a non-entity. You only have to look at boards.ie to see it is very left leaning. Either centre left - further left. Any ounce of mention of anything approaching 'the right' is jumped on by zealous posters.

Ireland has a very middle of the road benign sort of politics compared to many countries,

Irish political culture is far removed from America for example - much more right wing than Ireland - by and large. Which is why many Irish people as shown on boards.ie are in hysteria over American politics. They are fascinated by it's machinations because it is not like Ireland politically at all. Yet many people feel they have a 'connection' to it which is an odd dichotomy.

Continental Europe is another who has extreme right v left politics but such countries are rarely discussed on boards.ie as there is not the same 'connection'.

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118035890#Comment_118035890

The only time they got airtime was during the referendum? You must not consume any media in this country then.

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118035642#Comment_118035642

You do realize how much a beand new council house is worth if an ordinary tax payer was to pay for it dont you?

There are plenty being given out now worth even more than that.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118035797#Comment_118035797

Talk shows always need a heel during debates

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036086#Comment_118036086

I do and just don't get the impression as your giving. That 'the right' is everywhere. It isn't. In Ireland such people are very niche/fringe. Unlike many other countries. Maybe you just notice it more if they appear occasionally. Radical right is similar to radical left. In that they are normally vocal types. But the numbers those fringes get in General Elections just does not stack up.

Even if you think of the OP's post the implication seems to be that a new Centre-Right party would be radical. That is a 'Centre Right' party!

To me it just shows me that people in Ireland should be thankful of a very centrist type of politics. Noone is really going to rock the boat at the end of the day. It is a common sense type politics. Very little hysteria.

Compare that to other nations!

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118035642#Comment_118035642

Re-read what he said.

His cousin lives in a local authority owned house which is worth 500k

Nothing unusual about it ,they ( councils) have paid more than 500k in some places in the last few years

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118035698#Comment_118035698

Presumably OP would say he is too busy working hard and getting up early in the morning, as are most of those of like mind, so there's noone to make his fantasy party a reality...

osarusan

deleted

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036191#Comment_118036191

The comment was

"All discourse in media here is from a centre left to far left perspective"

And

" the only time they got any airtime was in the abortion referendum."

Taking newstalk as an example a search "David Quinn" brings up 13 segments, all after the referendum.

He also has an column in the Sunday times along with the likes of Breda o Brien in the Irish times. They are free to waffle all sorts of nonsense as "opinion".

So both those comments are demonstrably untrue.

The issue is that there is a certain ingrained victim hood in "conservatives" in this country and elsewhere. To them it's not a case of them/their views being largely in a severe minority with people not wanting what they are selling, it's the media/government/liberals that are restricting them.

Look at the debate on here leading up to the abortion referendum, where afterwards we found out that the mods bent over backwards to keep "conservative" posters, that would have been banned normally from getting banned so as to keep opposing voices on the forum.

As for you over zealous posters comment. This is a discussion forum if you aren't willing ( and in a lot of cases I see, can't)to stand over your post then there are other places on the internet where you will find the correct chamber you want.

Mr. CooL ICE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058213444/ireland-badly-needs-a-new-centre-right-party-heres-my-proposal

Without a swanky name, this party wouldn't get many votes at all.

Here's my suggestion: The Reactionary Party

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036677#Comment_118036677

Abortion is a poor example

How about the area of immigration or refugees ( DP etc ), no one could deny that opinions opposed to current levels do not receive a voice in media which reflects the public mood ?

Media here is categorically enthusiastic about immigration and the acceptance of refugees ,no dissenting voices are heard

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037313#Comment_118037313

The gang you hang around with are not public opinion, just the opinion of your gang.... if it was a widespread issue there would be something to cover....

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037393#Comment_118037393

The occasional poll has shown that immigration is a concern for a high percentage of the public, this is not reflected in media discourse.

Why do you think that is OK?

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058213444/ireland-badly-needs-a-new-centre-right-party-heres-my-proposal

Off you go so! If you believe that strongly in it then book a room somewhere and advertise and promote your meeting. You might even try Zoom. See how many people show up. Don't forget to do all the requisite social media stuff as well and get a decent party name. Then figure out how you're going to get funding for this thing to work. Good luck.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037402#Comment_118037402

so the media is largely to blame for the suppression of such beliefs?

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037436#Comment_118037436

The media and the assortment of NGO,s who want open borders effectively

Both actively work to suppress discent

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037487#Comment_118037487

who want open borders effectively.

Can you post a couple links from Irish media that show them advocating for open borders?

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037504#Comment_118037504

They portray all residents of DP as genuine refugees fleeing terrible hardship.

It's far beyond biased reporting and pure propaganda.

The NGO sector have now broadened the criteria from fleeing war to " climate change refugees "

It's a multi pronged attack on our sovereignty on a constant basis

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037564#Comment_118037564

Can you post a link? It should be easy if they do so much of it.

How do you know it isn't true but is propaganda? Who told you? Have you investigated the topic yourself?

Why do you think climate change, which has devastated livelihoods is not a valid reason to seek a better opportunity elsewhere? Are you saying that if your family was suffering in such a way, you wouldn't do everything you could to better their chances at having a safe and prosperous future?

Goldengirl

Read the op , then read the name of the op and got a sick feeling in my stomach !

Any relation to Lucinda ?

If so majority won't vote for your party .

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037590#Comment_118037590

It's well known that most who claim refugee status are merely economic migrants.

RTE has never once questioned the validity of those who reside in DP and heaven knows, they bang on about DP enough.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037487#Comment_118037487

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037564#Comment_118037564

fcuking hell!

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037611#Comment_118037611

It's well known that most who claim refugee status are merely economic migrants.

How do you know? Is it because most applicants are refused? If so, then what is the problem?

You still haven't posted a link showing all the media asking for open borders? Any chance you're getting your information from Facebook and are just spitting out catch phrases?

Shoog

Ireland has a very low rate of immigration and has a policy towards refugees which is specifically designed to put people off applying to Ireland as refuge. There is a lot of hysteria about immigration among some extreme right wing groups, a hysteria which resulted in the arson of a number of proposed direct provision centers, it seems that the opening commentator has been circulating in those unsavory circles.

landofthetree

A lot of Irish people leave Ireland for places like the OP describes. Very few go to the Nordic countries. They tend to go to the UK,NZ,Auz,Canada and the USA. All places were anybody earning over €35k pay less tax. Many now go to the middle East and pay no tax.

But why is their currently little support for lower taxes among the electorate?

The OP could easily be describing NZ or Australia i.e lower taxes and a strict migration policy. Even socialist Ardern has decided that only highly skilled migrants will be allowed in post covid.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/17/new-zealand-to-cut-low-skill-immigration-and-refocus-on-wealthy

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036273#Comment_118036273

Don't forget they get taxsaver commuter tickets, too!

Even though they don't pay tax...

Mullaghteelin

In essence, there is a race to the left. For instance, if an NGO calls for an amnesty for undocumented migrants, left wing parties will applaud. Much of the media will cheer it on too, but there won't be anyone from a mainstream party who will confidently oppose it. They will hum and haw uncomfortably, but will be very reluctant to vocally speak out against it.

If they did, expect to hear some NGO-head tutting-tutting about it in a conveniently timed interview, courtesy of their friends in the Irish Times or RTE.

Over time the Left drifts ever further Left, with groupthink and peer pressure dragging everyone else along with them.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037902#Comment_118037902

...because some of us realise, that be fcuking stupid, significantly reducing our ability to run the place and service our debts, default, and you ll enter a world of pain very fcuking quickly!

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037916#Comment_118037916

All the major parties may have socially progressive/liberal policies, and they even punt a few welfare hand outs to keep the poor onside, but they are economically right of center on everything else. Its a really illusion that those on the right have that Ireland is left of center on everything - its simply not true.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037813#Comment_118037813

" very low rate of immigration "

Patently untrue

I see sheep

FG centre left LOL.

I think it'd be as sucessfull as Lawerence Fox's London mayoral campaign.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118038211#Comment_118038211

In your fevered imagination maybe.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037916#Comment_118037916

In essence, there is a race to the right. For instance, if the EU calls for Ireland to take its share of refugees from, e.g., Syria, centre-right government parties will do the least amount possible. An announcement will be made about X number being admitted and much of the media will cheer it on, too, but then it'll be announced that the refugees are being put into direct provision centres miles form anywhere.

Nobody from a centre-right party will speak out about security-vetted but traumatised refugees being left for years in DP centres.

The location of a proposed DP centre might well be leaked, though. Expect to hear some tut-tutting from the likes of the Tan Torino or Litler Barrett in a conveniently timed interview, courtesy of their friends in the Irish Times or RTÉ, with no balance offered. Locals in favour not interviewed, and certainly nobody who's worked on integration with people in other DP centres.

The proposed DP centre might get burned down. The perpetrators won't be found. No prosecution will be brought.

Over time, the right drifts ever further right...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118038211#Comment_118038211

Thank **** for that. Our health system would have collapsed long ago if it wasn't for immigrant doctors and nurses.