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Ireland badly needs a new centre-right party - Here's my proposal



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman

    Well, that's clearly the difference between you and those that earn high salaries. I don't mind paying tax - as long as it is being used to actually provide me, and the rest of society with a service and I am not being given abuse by TDs and their supporters, and been made out to be some sort of scapegoat for their bull$hit fantasies. Personally, I would be proud to pay such a patronage for my country, if it was being spent in such a way and not used to buy votes from unions or to play left-wing ping-pong with SF and friends. And I know many on similar salaries who would agree.

    It's not about "patronising". it is about forcing every TD to shut the fcuk up about "the rich bogeymen who don't contribute". Remember, the top 5% pay almost 55% of all taxation despite earning only 22.7% of the income. Even in EU terms, we are a high-income tax country for high-earners (but a low income-tax country for low earners).

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman

    Just to follow up, you might find this an interesting read...

    Here are some relevant quotes...

    The study found that 24 per cent of Ireland’s high earners said they had “some difficulty” making ends meet, 3 per cent had “difficulty” and 1 per cent had “great difficulty”, resulting in a total of 28 per cent.

    Younger high earners in Ireland are more concerned about their ability to buy a house, plan a family and settle down, when compared with their European counterparts, Tasc said.

    Despite this, Tasc states that the highest earners in Ireland do not want to pay less tax on their earnings.

    The report states that higher earners “overwhelmingly” want to see tax revenue being used by the Government to ensure universal access to high quality public services, especially in education and health.

  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 47,304 ✭✭✭✭Zaph

    I've no problem with those who are earning more, paying more. And if I was in that bracket I would fully expect to be paying more tax, it's the right thing to do. But to expect to get a thank you card and a public thanks for paying tax, and you can call it what you like but it's tax, is just silly fantasy stuff altogether.

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,559 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson

    I missed who pays for the thank you cards.

  • Registered Users Posts: 13,383 ✭✭✭✭Geuze

    There are over 42,000 builders on the Live Register.

    Just think about that, in the middle of a housing crisis, with labour shortages.

    See Table 5 here

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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,383 ✭✭✭✭Geuze

    A good political party, centre-left, or centre-right, would be suggesting we help the 42,000 builders on the Live Register to sign off the Live Register, and move into employment building houses.

  • Registered Users Posts: 13,383 ✭✭✭✭Geuze

    Simple principle on income tax - nobody, ever, should face a marginal income tax in excess of 50%.

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,036 ✭✭✭joseywhales

    How many of those lads are doing cash jobs?

    I've met people who have only worked cash for decades.

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,036 ✭✭✭joseywhales

    I disagree with almost every point in the op but if this party proposes a couple of nuclear reactors and uranium mining in donegal to resolve this energy crisis, then I'll hold my nose.

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,918 ✭✭✭✭elperello

    A new party is an interesting proposition and as a democrat I would have no problem with any legitimate grouping putting candidates forward for election.

    However, it's a long hard road trying to set up a new party. The time and energy required both at national and local level make the task daunting for any but the most dedicated.

    Would you go for council seats first and try to build up a profile or go straight into the bearpit of a general election?

    How many seats could a party as suggested expect to win? Would other parties consider them as coalition partners?

    Anyone with an interest in politics will have a fair idea of the lie of the land politically in their own constituency.

    As an exercise I suggest that people ask themselves how a new centre right party would do in the area you know best.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,383 ✭✭✭✭Geuze

    Of course there shouldn't need to be a new party.

    FG should be the centre-right party.

    Maybe if SF get into the next Govt, FG will react by moving back to being a centre-right party.

  • Registered Users Posts: 16,375 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf

    The key issue here is not with the founding leadership of such a party, who may well be quite reasonable, but the type of activist such parties tend to attract. The terms 'right wing' and 'conservative' seem to be catnip to every crank and mentalist going, and they will be a total turnoff for the mainstream right-leaning voters the party is looking to attract.

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    Could anyone honestly imagine ANY of the current parties coming into this budget saying "We're cutting all welfare payments and giving the people who wake up and work every day something meaningful".. of course not.

    Instead those like myself got about e112 euro in tax reductions while base welfare payments went up e250 for the year(plus Fuel and all the rest).

    Rinse and repeat year after year.

  • Registered Users Posts: 16,375 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf

    Rinse and repeat year after year.

    Inevitably. Until you and kindred spirits start voting for somebody else in significant numbers...

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,367 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69

    Ivan yeates was saying the other day at the end of the day no matter what government there is things will stay the same.

    He learned that when he was in FG and was told by various people.

    Civil servants give the advice and make the decisions, and thinking a party can come in and change things drastically is fantasy.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85

    There is talk about renua and the pds. Very different times and the abortion issue is done. Admittedly so are renua. Any party here would have to deal with the very left wing media, that would brand an actual centreist party as right wing nazis!

    Would agree with everything in the op. Open goal here for someone with the balls to do it...

    Post edited by Murph85 on

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,785 ✭✭✭Fann Linn

    So the govt are in incapable of governing? Perhaps it is time FFG moved over if that's the latest excuse.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85

    You mean the kind of parties that every other country has? . Like the largest party in the uk?

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,375 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig

    I think we have more empathy here. The Tories work in the UK because there is an acceptance among the population that some people are better and more deserving than others. We don't really have that here so dont like to see poorer people screwed over.

  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight

    15 years minimum. That's five years to railroad planning permission and legal challenges though the courts and ten years of on-time on-budget construction. All of which are complete fantasies. And IIRC the uranium in Donegal is mainly in granite which isn't cheap or easy to extract. And our energy usage patterns are far too varied to allow nuclear without lots and lots of peaking plant.

    How would you propose to keep the lights on through all those election cycles ?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus

    We have an element of it. I would say the majority are floating voters drifting from FF to FG traditionally but what kept them big was their do or die base. While it's dwindling, the fact that some people will vote for a party no matter what they do is troubling.

    We have seen the arrogance and cronyism. We had it in spades from FF and more recently from FG. I can easily see the like of FG becoming full UK Conservative if they got the power.

    Tax breaks for millionaires and multinationals and using the private market to tackle housing despite the fall out are the signs.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus

    They are opportunistic like most parties. The idea that FG have an ethic hard line they won't cross has been shown to be nonsense.

    We need a competent party with standards, center left or right.

  • Registered Users Posts: 24,360 ✭✭✭✭lawred2

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,036 ✭✭✭joseywhales

    I mean that is a short term issue that also needs to be resolved but for long term energy security we need nuclear imo. Buying from France etc., fine in theory but a french cabinet minister just threatened blackmail to the british for fishing rights for electricity. This is in peace time, imagine what they would be like when there are major global events! We need some long term energy security. It's like we live in a shanty town and the roof is leaking and I am suggesting we build a brick and mortar house but it will take us years and the roof is leaking now. We still need that brick and mortar house, we can't just keep buying galvanized sheeting.

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭enricoh

    The average Irish voter prefers to vote for whoever promises them the most goodies! Anyone using cold hard facts about our debt levels being unsustainable etc is on a hiding to nothing.

    Now hands up who wants public sector raises, welfare increases and pension increases- virtually everyone bar a few cranks! That's that sorted.

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,980 ✭✭✭Shoog

    All the major Irish parties a socially conservative and right of centre with the exception of SF who are socially conservative and left of center. The last thing we need is another right of center party to replace the failing FF+FG band wagon.

    The whole Housing, health and insurance fiascos are down to the fact that the right of center parties are incapable of a meaningful intervention in the markets.

  • Registered Users Posts: 984 ✭✭✭Fred Cryton

    Let me address this point. Modest tax reductions such as mentioned in my OP would indeed be self financing. There exists an optimal rate of income tax which raises the most amount of revenue. If you increase the rate beyond this, you actually raise less revenue (mostly because higher earners flee the country or the country becomes less competitive). Most studies agree in Ireland our tax rates are above this optimal rate, so by reducing we would actually raise more revenue. Someone should explain this to SF, but i think their agenda is more a spiteful "hurt the rich".

    And even if the tax cuts not self financing, who cares? We should put in place reasonable tax rates as the first step, then the government should learn to live with whatever revenue it receives. Not the other way around where we determine government spending and then fit tax rates to pay for it!

  • Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road

    the uk conservative party are very very different to centre right parties in other countries.

    no comparison what soever.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,980 ✭✭✭Shoog

    The UK Tories are what is considered a hard right party these days. They have been in power so long their more extreme elements have captured their agenda. When they were in the EU parliament they aligned themselves with a block which has extreme hard right parties such as those in power in Poland currently.

    Politics these days has drifted so far to the right that people have lost their political compasses.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85

    Its absolute comedy ! Fg wondear why they are hemorrhaging voters... their first priority is all welfare recipients! Totally alienating their actual voter base. Like myself and my mates, who wont vote next election or are voting sf...

    From fg to sf, based purely on the great housing racket. They want the taxpayer to be a life long whore to the banks and vested interests, while they throw out free accommodate to those that dont vote or would certainly never vote fg. It shows you the cowardice you are dealing with.

    A fifty percent marginal rate of tax that hits peasant income... yet the companies with more money than God, should pay as good as nothing... square that one...