Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

storker

storker wrote: »

Ironic isn't it? Those who were so quick to accuse others of having no lives and being in hiding are so caught up with their outrage that they don't appear to have noticed the lightening of restrictions that less wound up people are taking advantage of. Pull your heads out of the thread, gents...

Its still like IngSoc compare to other countries. Pull your own head out.

Degag

MOR316 wrote: »

I said in my first response that I wasn't accusing you or anything of the kind. I haven't read anything in relation to you defending him. I was venting and mean't overall

As per my post, I find it insane

I find it insane that you or anyone else can defend it and/or partake in it.

There is outcry everytime a footballer is abused online when they score an own goal, miss a chance, get a red card etc. Celebrities get all manner of abuse. Do you agree with that?

Because this is no different.

It is possible to be critical without being insulting.

Ballynally

From another thread:

Originally Posted by carveone:

I spent the last hour or so looking at the Green Pass specification documents as they're public. It's just a bit of JSON with your name and dob and what your status is. That's sha256 signed, compressed and converted into a QR code. It's a bit waffly but then EU stuff usually is.

To verify, you take the QR code (there are free libraries, it's a doddle on a phone now), retrieve the data, get the public key and validate the content. Easy. If you've ever checked the validity of a Windows executable by checking its signature, it's the same process.

In my (experienced) opinion, it would take an experienced person a few days to set up a QR scanner to validate the certs. I say that because there is code and libraries already on github to do it! And it'd take a few days to get a QR scanner from Amazon (starting at 70 quid).

So why hasn't it been done? No idea. You are validating a data blob. It's not dependent on a HSE database. The only dependency is the certificate chain from the EU root cert but jesus, that's nothing.

If you were sufficiently disinterested in writing code, there's Python code done already. If you weren't arsed in doing any of it, you could ring up another country and ask them to send you theirs.

It's a joke.



The other way around - generating the green cert - involves an entity with access to the certificate private key who can sign the cert. This *could* have been done by trusting the vaccinator to submit a properly formatted JSON file to a server that would sign it on the spot and send back the result. Instant QR code. Done. Cheerio, get on a plane. Bye...

My brother in law got his jab (one shot Jansen) and QR code simultaneously in Romania. Romania for godsake!

But nooooo. I remember some poor woman in the doctor's surgery taking all the information each person gave her and typing that into an Excel spreadsheet. I suppose that was uploaded somewhere at some point to some data centre that had the ransomware event to deal with.

So maybe the way it's being done is to collate all these masses of vaccination data, cross reference that against the PPS numbers to get the name/sirname used in your passport (if they don't match, it would be irritating) and then... what.... magic I suppose. Post out a QR code. Dick about with mygov.ie. Who the hell knows. I certainly dont" (end quote).

Everything could have been in place already, including a QR code on an app/phone, ready for travel on july 19 and as vaccine evidence.
Another balls up..

seamus

Ballynally wrote: »

Everything could have been in place already, including a QR code on an app/phone, ready for travel on july 19 and as vaccine evidence.

According to some randomer who could set up a QR scanner himself in a couple of days, but is very fuzzy on the actual details of what the setup at the HSE is.

Functionally, the difficulty is in generating our certs, and the constraints on available IT resources in the HSE:

This *could* have been done by trusting the vaccinator to submit a properly formatted JSON file to a server that would sign it on the spot and send back the result

Where both the computer in use by the vaccinator and the server which generates the certs are unavailable or otherwise not ready.

Socially, there will be resistance against the use of travel certs for domestic use. It's akin to Gardai demanding your passport if you want to travel between counties. So "you will need your covid travel cert if you want to eat indoors", will cause much....controversy. Even though, "Only vaccinated people can eat indoors" is exactly the same thing, it doesn't have the same authoritarian connotations.

is_that_so

Ballynally wrote: »

From another thread:

Originally Posted by carveone:

I spent the last hour or so looking at the Green Pass specification documents as they're public. It's just a bit of JSON with your name and dob and what your status is. That's sha256 signed, compressed and converted into a QR code. It's a bit waffly but then EU stuff usually is.

To verify, you take the QR code (there are free libraries, it's a doddle on a phone now), retrieve the data, get the public key and validate the content. Easy. If you've ever checked the validity of a Windows executable by checking its signature, it's the same process.

In my (experienced) opinion, it would take an experienced person a few days to set up a QR scanner to validate the certs. I say that because there is code and libraries already on github to do it! And it'd take a few days to get a QR scanner from Amazon (starting at 70 quid).

So why hasn't it been done? No idea. You are validating a data blob. It's not dependent on a HSE database. The only dependency is the certificate chain from the EU root cert but jesus, that's nothing.

If you were sufficiently disinterested in writing code, there's Python code done already. If you weren't arsed in doing any of it, you could ring up another country and ask them to send you theirs.

It's a joke.



The other way around - generating the green cert - involves an entity with access to the certificate private key who can sign the cert. This *could* have been done by trusting the vaccinator to submit a properly formatted JSON file to a server that would sign it on the spot and send back the result. Instant QR code. Done. Cheerio, get on a plane. Bye...

My brother in law got his jab (one shot Jansen) and QR code simultaneously in Romania. Romania for godsake!

But nooooo. I remember some poor woman in the doctor's surgery taking all the information each person gave her and typing that into an Excel spreadsheet. I suppose that was uploaded somewhere at some point to some data centre that had the ransomware event to deal with.

So maybe the way it's being done is to collate all these masses of vaccination data, cross reference that against the PPS numbers to get the name/sirname used in your passport (if they don't match, it would be irritating) and then... what.... magic I suppose. Post out a QR code. Dick about with mygov.ie. Who the hell knows. I certainly dont" (end quote).

Everything could have been in place already, including a QR code on an app/phone, ready for travel on july 19 and as vaccine evidence.
Another balls up..

IT person being unhappy and thinking they can always do it better shocker! A whole lot of the process was the so-called waffly language that addresses all those pesky legal issues, GDPR and any national changes required in 27 countries so you can throw your version together in your coffee break.

FileNotFound

Without picking any side as I don't have the knowledge to really do it.

Are people concerned at all by the commentary from Chris Whitty - rudimentary version being that opening now and taking some hit from the virus to get to real herd immunity per-say during the summer months is the best way to avoid an overwhelmed health system later in the year. Opening when schools is off is also preferable to prevent a sudden sharper surge,
It seems he is indicating that waiting for more vaccines alone will not stop a wave of cases and naturally some hospital cases will arise (assume a large enough number if he imagines it will impact the health service) at the same time as flu which we can expect to be around and other winter illnesses.

If (and yes its another if) he is correct and we are further behind in our vaccination program the concept above leaves me thinking we may well be in for another xmas of lockdowns and limitations here.

While I actually was not in the support full reopening group at all and still am not (masks and some social distancing for the rest of the year would not be too bad). I guess I am now wondering what more stumbling blocks lie ahead for us. Will certain sectors essentially remain shut into next year?

is_that_so

FileNotFound wrote: »

Without picking any side as I don't have the knowledge to really do it.

Are people concerned at all by the commentary from Chris Whitty - rudimentary version being that opening now and taking some hit from the virus to get to real herd immunity per-say during the summer months is the best way to avoid an overwhelmed health system later in the year. Opening when schools is off is also preferable to prevent a sudden sharper surge,
It seems he is indicating that waiting for more vaccines alone will not stop a wave of cases and naturally some hospital cases will arise (assume a large enough number if he imagines it will impact the health service) at the same time as flu which we can expect to be around and other winter illnesses.

If (and yes its another if) he is correct and we are further behind in our vaccination program the concept above leaves me thinking we may well be in for another xmas of lockdowns and limitations here.

While I actually was not in the support full reopening group at all and still am not (masks and some social distancing for the rest of the year would not be too bad). I guess I am now wondering what more stumbling blocks lie ahead for us. Will certain sectors essentially remain shut into next year?

The UK have always had a bit of yen for let 'er rip and Whitty is not your abundance of caution go-to man. We can't afford to go to next year with large sections of the economy shut down. For the winter, mask wearing is probably a given, but may be optional. Our measure should now be effects on the health system and it will be an enormously tough sell to convince a vaccinated public that it is necessary. I really don't see it happening.

the kelt

FileNotFound wrote: »

Without picking any side as I don't have the knowledge to really do it.

Are people concerned at all by the commentary from Chris Whitty - rudimentary version being that opening now and taking some hit from the virus to get to real herd immunity per-say during the summer months is the best way to avoid an overwhelmed health system later in the year. Opening when schools is off is also preferable to prevent a sudden sharper surge,
It seems he is indicating that waiting for more vaccines alone will not stop a wave of cases and naturally some hospital cases will arise (assume a large enough number if he imagines it will impact the health service) at the same time as flu which we can expect to be around and other winter illnesses.

If (and yes its another if) he is correct and we are further behind in our vaccination program the concept above leaves me thinking we may well be in for another xmas of lockdowns and limitations here.

While I actually was not in the support full reopening group at all and still am not (masks and some social distancing for the rest of the year would not be too bad). I guess I am now wondering what more stumbling blocks lie ahead for us. Will certain sectors essentially remain shut into next year?

The thing is despite the idiotic comments you see of a group being called the “let it rip” cohort and the selfishness of the “I’m alright Jack so just get in with it” commentators most people just want to be able to sit down for a cup of bloody coffee without getting pissed on and heaven forbid maybe even have a meal or a pint.

Ye know a small bit of normality, just a bit more than what we currently have.

That’s it and the frustration is with all the vaccinations, 50 in hospitals in the entire country you cannot do that.

All at a time every other country can!

And still, even still they’re people who just refuse to question and belittle those that do because through their own selfishness it doesn’t affect them.

Would it be great to open up fully, sure it would be great but it simply doesn’t make sense imho to do that yet.

Would it be nice to have a pint or a cup of coffee indoors, sure it would and it simply makes absolutely zero sense that we can’t do that yet.

That’s where most people are at imho.

seamus

FileNotFound wrote: »

Are people concerned at all by the commentary from Chris Whitty - rudimentary version being that opening now and taking some hit from the virus to get to real herd immunity per-say during the summer months is the best way to avoid an overwhelmed health system later in the year.

The situation is different in the UK because their vax programme is about to diverge from ours by a bit. Their longer dosing schedule means they don't expect to be finished until October, and they are expecting to add in a booster shot programme for older cohorts in September.

In short, they will have a larger portion of their population who are vulnerable and for longer than we will. So we have no need to use real infections to boost our levels of herd immunity.

I also expect that the political environment is very different in the UK. Boris makes a decision about what he wants to do and Whitty either rows and in puts the best spin he can on it, or he finds himself a new job.
Whatever about the snide comments in terms of the tail wagging the dog, NPHET and the Government here haven't been slow to disagree with eachother in public.

Ballynally

is_that_so wrote: »

IT person being unhappy and thinking they can always do it better shocker! A whole lot of the process was the so-called waffly language that addresses all those pesky legal issues, GDPR and any national changes required in 27 countries so you can throw your version together in your coffee break.

Im not sure what you are exactly hinting at. Please elaborate..

IF you are deriding the poster, his comment was made in the context of the public/open source IT set in place on european level prior to each country's implementation. This to streamline the whole process so each country could hook up to the system w their version. France did it on june 6, before the official start on july 1.
That this system is not yet in place in Ireland, the only country in the EU, reeks of incompetence or deliberate obstruction.
Or both.
The irish government seems rather good in delaying just about anything.
They can easily do that by not smoothing out the kinks in the cable and then blaming it on something in the system, like the HSE hack.

If you agree w the poster i obviously have no point to make

is_that_so

Ballynally wrote: »

Im not sure what you are exactly hinting at. Please elaborate..

IF you are deriding the poster, his comment was made in the context of the public/open source IT set in place on european level prior to each country's implementation. This to streamline the whole process so each country could hook up to the systen w their version.
That this system is not in place yet in Ireland, the only country in the EU, reeks of incompetence or deliberate obstruction.
Or both.

If you agree w the poster i obviously have no point to make

The point is this is a whole lot more than just banging out a bit of code. You may call it incompetence but rollouts take time and it's generally sensible to take the time to get it right.

paw patrol

seamus wrote: »

Whatever about the snide comments in terms of the tail wagging the dog, NPHET and the Government here haven't been slow to disagree with eachother in public.

this isn't true.
Leo tried and then found himself in some bother with stories in the media. FF backed him for the price of not speaking out of turn again. Since MM is a devotee of NPHET there is nobody in government to speak out against NPHET.
You need to trawl the back benchers to reach marc mcsharry .

the only push back against NPHET have been from independents like Michael McNamara, Mattie McGrath and occasionally Peader Tobin of aontu.
I understand that each Independent has limited speaking time so I'm gonna guess that they allow McNamara to use their time cos he does have a lovely way of speaking. So I'll would be hesitant to be critical of them them all

The opposition like SF , SDs , the left have been terrible the whole crisis .
Real nanny state clowns selling even more fear than the previous day.

Labour were in that group but gotta hand it to AK47 he did a good deed the other day attacking the government . credit where it's due

bucketybuck

is_that_so wrote: »

The point is this is a whole lot more than just banging out a bit of code. You may call it incompetence but rollouts take time and it's generally sensible to take the time to get it right.

Why are Ireland so out of line with Europe in these things?

We can't just call it complicated and ignore that everybody else seems to be able to do it.

Fandymo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I dont think the "drinking problem" in this country is near as bad as made out, however expressing an opinion that there may be a drinking problem in the country is not the same as being anti drinking

Did you miss the post where he said that every pub in the country should remain closed because some people may have drinking problems??

paw patrol

Archeron wrote: »

One thing that has really struck me about all of this lately is that despite all of the brilliant analysis and heartfelt posts and learned opinions on this thread, on both sides, for me this isn't completely about covid anymore.

What i see now here is the complete disregard for the will of the people of our beautiful little country. The taoiseach and his cabinet has handed full control of the future of hundreds of thousands, millions of people to a group of unelected single issue individuals who account to nobody.

That was a beautiful and articulate post , I haven't quoted it all , but it eloquently worded and nailed exactly my feelings of despair at the state of Ireland over the last 12-15 months.

There is no freedom anymore in Ireland , every action is on lease from the state apparatus and that is wrong. No matter the circumstances.

As I said before if our rights are taken away in strenuous times for our safety it means we never had them in the first place.

mcsean2163

The pup golden handcuffs.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/state-s-unemployment-rate-stays-high-at-21-9-in-may-1.4601323?mode=amp

Nobody seems to care that 1 in 5 unemployed.

Ballynally

is_that_so wrote: »

The point is this is a whole lot more than just banging out a bit of code. You may call it incompetence but rollouts take time and it's generally sensible to take the time to get it right.

Well, then i would say your point is invalid, taken the fact that every other country in the EU has done it, even Romania, not known as a typical high tech country. As if we do not have some of the best IT companies in Ireland.
I see it as a possible deliberate obstruction not having a proper analysis going from A to B, implementing a system already in place months before its official opening.
And only looking at the issues after the problems arise. You know, the ones you could have anticipated at the start!
It is not beyond the possiblity of that being deliberate..imo, of course.

silverharp

Can I get an Amen!

https://twitter.com/PaulTreyvaud/status/1411971580423462913

storker

Deleted User wrote: »

Its still like IngSoc compare to other countries. Pull your own head out.

IngSoc...riiight. :rolleyes:

M_Murphy57

Archeron wrote: »

One thing that has really struck me about all of this lately is that despite all of the brilliant analysis and heartfelt posts and learned opinions on this thread, on both sides, for me this isn't completely about covid anymore.

What i see now here is the complete disregard for the will of the people of our beautiful little country. The taoiseach and his cabinet has handed full control of the future of hundreds of thousands, millions of people to a group of unelected single issue individuals who account to nobody.

Michael Martin has essentially got his fingers in his ears saying lalala, everything is going wrong but I don't care, lalalala while the group who have the power are sitting there pulling the strings.

We will decide what you can and cannot do. And when. Us, not the people you elected.
We know you don't trust us,and rightly so, but tough, you have no choice.
If you start to act up, we'll take away your freedoms again. Wanna go back to 5km, do ya, DO YA? Yeah, now feck off and we might let you have a meaningful Christmas.
We control the government
The government control the police.
The government control the media.
We will use the media to portray you as a nutter.
We will attend calls and meetings of our own choosing.
The elected government will speak of us with a tone of deference at all times.
Anybody who argues with us is a crazy anti vaxxer and we will use the media to reinforce that.
Wash your hands.
Holdfirm
Just two more weeks.

The behaviour of certain members of these advisory councils has sparked a major nerve in people. The arrogance, the seemingly delibrate misinformation, appearing on prime time entertainment shows for Christ's sake. I am sure Tony holohan is a lovely man but in my job, if somebody isn't the right one to be in front of the customer, they aren't in front of the customer. How have the government still not learned this? People spoke about the return of Tony after his tragic loss as if was the beginning of a horror movie sequel, things would all get worse again we all thought. And we were right. Something is really rotten in Ireland right now and it's not just covid.

Whether nphet are right or wrong, and great arguments made for both sides on this thread, for me I will never forget any of the members of the current government who stand by and let this happen.

They have divided society horribly, instilled horrible fear in so many, and now in my own personal experience over the past two weeks, are actively damaging the vaccine rollout by creating uncertainty with those on the fence, eight people I know have said they won't take the vaccine, 7 of them have decided in the past week and a bit.

If an elected government can basically turn around and completely hand all responsibility to an untouchable group, then I worry biglyfor the future. For me the reopening of pubs is just a symbol of this now.

This should be printed in the paper. Sums up perfectly how so many people are feeling about MMs spineless defection of power. Great Post.

pjohnson

silverharp wrote: »

Can I get an Amen!

https://twitter.com/PaulTreyvaud/status/1411971580423462913

Christ he's completely lost the plot now.

_Kaiser_

Once again, Ireland can't just adopt something without giving it an "Irish twist" to balls it up!

Digital Covid Certificates for international travel may be arriving in letter boxes in the coming days as the Government ramps up plans to meet its July 19 deadline.

It is also expected EU travel passes will be used to pave the way for the return of indoor dining.

At a meeting with the hospitality sector, Government officials said the certificates will be posted to vaccinated people in the coming days and could be used as part of a vaccine identity system for pubs, restaurants and cafes.

Officials told the meeting the certificates could be sent to the 1.8 million people who have been vaccinated or who have recovered from Covid-19 in the coming days.

A digital cert send by post... FFS! :rolleyes:

But wait, there's more...

Hospitality representatives were warned that if an app has to be developed for indoor dining it could take a number of months.

They were told there will be no Garda enforcement of vaccine passes and the industry will be asked to regulate the scheme.

.. because they just couldn't have known this was coming right? And it's not going to be legally enforced anyway!

Yet another ridiculous last minute half-assed "solution" by Paddy, rather than just doing what is already done elsewhere.

Hurrache

paw patrol wrote: »

The opposition like SF , SDs , the left have been terrible the whole crisis .
Real nanny state clowns selling even more fear than the previous day.

It's disgraceful Joe, not one party has agreed with my outlier opinions as to how we should handle Covid, they're all in the pocket of big NPHET.

OwenM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

NPHET didn't impose restrictions. The government did.

Indoor hospitality for the vaccinated will likely return on July 19th or the week after, assuming that the HSE can manage to roll out the covid vax app - not guaranteed due to the hack but all the stops are pulled in order to get it out.

When will the remaining restrictions be fully eased? I don't know, likely when we are approaching herd immunity. So back to the office in late August along with masks and social distancing reduced to an advisory.

Don't be so f**king disingenuous, as if you believe the government are going remove the restrictions without a letter from NPHET.....

Poorside

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Once again, Ireland can't just adopt something without giving it an "Irish twist" to balls it up!



A digital cert send by post... FFS! :rolleyes:

But wait, there's more...



.. because they just couldn't have known this was coming right? And it's not going to be legally enforced anyway!

Yet another ridiculous last minute half-assed "solution" by Paddy, rather than just doing what is already done elsewhere.

Can't wait until Gardai are asking people to show their papers, that's always worked well, right?

Vicxas

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Once again, Ireland can't just adopt something without giving it an "Irish twist" to balls it up!



A digital cert send by post... FFS! :rolleyes:

But wait, there's more...



.. because they just couldn't have known this was coming right? And it's not going to be legally enforced anyway!

Yet another ridiculous last minute half-assed "solution" by Paddy, rather than just doing what is already done elsewhere.

Find me one restaurant that will turn away someone without a cert after 16 months of being shafted

_Kaiser_

Poorside wrote: »

Can't wait until Gardai are asking people to show their papers, that's always worked well, right?

But that's the point too... they won't be asking anyone it seems. It'll be up to the poor sod at the door to the restaurant/pub to sort out.

km79

Vicxas wrote: »

Find me one restaurant that will turn away someone without a cert after 16 months of being shafted

It’s a pure charade . A face saving exercise . It won’t be policed .
So in effect it will end up much looser than in countries who eased sooner ..........

Maybe they want to say “I told you so “!

titan18

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

But that's the point too... they won't be asking anyone it seems. It'll be up to the poor sod at the door to the restaurant/pub to sort out.

No place will even ask

M_Murphy57

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Once again, Ireland can't just adopt something without giving it an "Irish twist" to balls it up!



A digital cert send by post... FFS! :rolleyes:

But wait, there's more...



.. because they just couldn't have known this was coming right? And it's not going to be legally enforced anyway!

Yet another ridiculous last minute half-assed "solution" by Paddy, rather than just doing what is already done elsewhere.

Months to develop a system we are legally obliged to have up and running in 13 days for airports? 13 days being the same timefrane this system is apparently needed for restaurants?

You couldn't write the incompetence of this govt.

And don't get me started on the notion of Copper Faced Jacks and the likes recouping their losses of the last 16 months by serving only the vaccinated, which predominantly makes up the elderly.