First olympic transgender athlete to compete at Tokyo 2020 **MOD NOTE IN OP**

Fandymo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well, this thread is going exactly as I suspected it to go.

I miss decent old boards.ie

Great input, you’re really improving the quality of the thread you’re giving out about.

Do you want everyone cheering for the biological male taking the spot of a biological female in a female event in the Olympics??

Would that be more like “decent old boards.ie”??

KeepItLight

Fandymo wrote: »

You cannot change your chromosomes, they are XX or XY and that’s it, no matter how much you wish/feel/believe.

Not to point out the obvious, but isn't the fact that we're at this stage proof that what's real is irrelevant?

gladerunner

Do you think if she was a born woman, she would understand how hurtful this is to her competitors and maybe not take part.

cj maxx

ebbsy wrote: »

I think its not fair, and I think its bull****.


Why don't they have their own Olympics ?

Thats a good point. A trans-games.

This is not the first olympic transgender. Stanislawa Walasiewicz won gold for Poland in 1932.

It was not discovered that she was male until after her death, during the autopsy. Although looking at pictures of her, it looks pretty obvious.

Dyr

Fandymo wrote: »

Change all sports to XX and XY chromosome groupings. Then we are back to fair competition.

Just make all sports mixed.

Equality achieved.

Baggly

Fandymo wrote: »

You cannot change your chromosomes, they are XX or XY and that’s it, no matter how much you wish/feel/believe.

Fandymo wrote: »

Great input, you’re really improving the quality of the thread you’re giving out about.

Do you want everyone cheering for the biological male taking the spot of a biological female in a female event in the Olympics??

Would that be more like “decent old boards.ie”??

Mod

Great - you have made up your mind then. Dont post in this thread again. Adversarial, discussion quashing ****e has no place in this thread.

kildare lad

Christy42 wrote: »

I could have predicted most of it but LGBTQ causes being Iranian/Chinese conspiracy was a new one on me!

From the thread I can would presume no one born with female genitalia will win a medal.

Would you rather the female medal winner had a penis??? He/she has already won a good few medals competing as a women denying women of gold medals already . Do you think someone who was a man till the age of 35 should be allowed compete with womens competitions ???

Baggly

Oscar Madison wrote: »

An absolute joke of a decision! :mad:

An absolute travesty to 'real' female athletes who have worked very hard

to garner their place at the games!

Mod

Dont post in this thread again

kildare lad

Bambi wrote: »

Just make all sports mixed.

Equality achieved.

So you just want men's sport then

Gatling

kildare lad wrote: »

So you just want men's sport then

Is there currently any real alternative .

Other than having specific trans sports for transpersons , rugby , football , athletics ,
Imagine the premier League or the six Nations saying they would allow women to play against men ,there would be outrage over it

griffin100

I had an interesting conversation with my 16 year old son last night about this. He, like most of his peers, is very accepting of diversity. He has friends who are gay, friends from non Irish backgrounds and friends of colour.

However he's really struggling with this. He's an ex competitive swimmer and as he said to me last night if he were a woman his swim times would have put him into the elite female category rather than the mid level male swimmer he was, but that if he did identify and compete as a women that that would be unfair on other women.

Similarly in GAA his and his mates build and physique puts them into a different position to female players of the same age, especially as they lift weights and start to put muscle on. As a parent of 3 GAA playing daughters I wouldn't like to see someone with my sons physique slamming into one of daughters on the pitch.

It's a minefield for many sports.

I think the only fair solution is to ban all sports entirely, at all levels. Then we can all spend more quality time on the internet, as God herself intended.

Christy42

Richard Hillman wrote: »

There is a strong theory that Iran are pushing the likes Trans stuff and LGB causes through their online bots.

Look at it from their side. They believe fully in their heart of hearts that Transgenderism, and LGB rights will bring down any society. Post anything on twitter that is Pro Trans or LGB and you'll get a zillion likes. Then look into the profiles and they are all dummy accounts.

Russia are at this stuff too. It's new level warfare. Trying to mess up nations by creating divisions within. And they are doing am excellent job of it.

Gatling wrote: »

Is there currently any real alternative .

Other than having specific trans sports for transpersons , rugby , football , athletics ,
Imagine the premier League or the six Nations saying they would allow women to play against men ,there would be outrage over it

I mean maybe we don't need to entirely revisit how we look at sports over a few people? We have had transgender athletes for a while and yet there is a total of 1?!? athletes at the biggest sporting comp going.

Ah apparently I missed Russia (in one of the quoted posts, not you) in the list of those promoting LGBT agenda to bring down society. Given we have reached the level of person competes in sporting competition in a sport without much money in it. I feel like they are a little bit away from their goal.

I mean there is probably a discussion to be had on whether it gives an advantage but when we have someone asking if there is any real alternative to just throwing everyone into the same division regardless of gender and more talking about how lgbt agendas are a foreign plot to overthrow the west I feel like we can safely say that debate isn't going to happen reasonably here.

Inquitus

It's clearly not fair as the athlete developed bone and muscle mass as a man with higher Testosterone when growing up, and that cannot be undone. I understand now that she is undergoing Testosterone therapy to reduce the amount of testosterone to levels equivalent to the other competitors, but the damage is already done in these cases.

It's a hard one to deal with, maybe there should be a separate Transgender category at the Olympics or something to level the playing field, who knows, but its certainly not fair on natural born women to have to compete against Transgender athletes, some sports highlight this worse than others, pure strength events like Weight Lifting, Wrestling etc. are more impacted than other more skill based events.

kildare lad

griffin100 wrote: »

I had an interesting conversation with my 16 year old son last night about this. He, like most of his peers, is very accepting of diversity. He has friends who are gay, friends from non Irish backgrounds and friends of colour.

However he's really struggling with this. He's an ex competitive swimmer and as he said to me last night if he were a woman his swim times would have put him into the elite female category rather than the mid level male swimmer he was, but that if he did identify and compete as a women that that would be unfair on other women.

Similarly in GAA his and his mates build and physique puts them into a different position to female players of the same age, especially as they lift weights and start to put muscle on. As a parent of 3 GAA playing daughters I wouldn't like to see someone with my sons physique slamming into one of daughters on the pitch.

It's a minefield for many sports.

The crazy thing is all your son would have to do is take testosterone blockers for a year and he'd be classified as a female and he could clean up In the female division . Look at how many males many being teens can beat the women's records. Who ever think trans women should be competing with females needs to get their head examined. If you look at the tables in the link , even the boys are beating the women's records fairly comfortably.

https://law.duke.edu/sports/sex-sport/comparative-athletic-performance/

If you know sport, you know this beyond a reasonable doubt: there is an average 10-12% performance gap between elite males and elite females. The gap is smaller between elite females and non-elite males, but it’s still insurmountable and that’s ultimately what matters. Translating these statistics into real world results, we see, for example, that:

Just in the single year 2017, Olympic, World, and U.S. Champion Tori Bowie's 100 meters lifetime best of 10.78 was beaten 15,000 times by men and boys. (Yes, that’s the right number of zeros.)

The same is true of Olympic, World, and U.S. Champion Allyson Felix’s 400 meters lifetime best of 49.26. Just in the single year 2017, men and boys around the world outperformed her more than 15,000

Homelander

I suspect if she doesn't win a medal as well it'll be "look, being trans doesn't mean you're displacing anyone or unfairly competing".

We are talking about a person who is 43 - almost two decades older than the peak age for the sport - and after transitioning can compete with the best in the world.

She's also far, far bigger and heavier than the other competitors, putting aside the obvious physical advantages from having been a man who went through puberty, regardless of the current test levels.

It's a crazy decision and I cannot see how anyone would support it in the name of inclusion. Inclusion shouldn't be at the considerable displacement and exclusion of others.

wpd

Society has decided that transgender people are entitled to equality and the right to gender self identification.

If this is what society has decided how can the sports communities then differentiate. The fact it leads to
inequalities for other competitors is just a byproduct of granting transgender equality

I can think of other issues apart from sports that are impacted, but thats what society (led by the leftist media) has
deemed to be the way we now live our lives

I can see the lawsuits rolling in if transgender athletes are excluded from funding and competition

Spudman_20000

Spudman_20000 wrote: »

Can't wait to see what happens when this starts happening for sports people actually care about e.g. women's tennis, golf etc. 300 yard drives, 165 mph serves etc.

Martina Navratalova's tennis coach, Renée Richards, is a transwoman who played tennis professionally in women's competitions in the 70s. In her mid-to-late forties, while she played professionally alongside young women in their twenties in peak physical condition, her highest rank was 20th.

t.ly/pZuj

conorhal

wpd wrote: »

Society has decided that transgender people are entitled to equality and the right to gender self identification.

If this is what society has decided how can the sports communities then differentiate. The fact it leads to
inequalities for other competitors is just a byproduct of granting transgender equality

I can think of other issues apart from sports that are impacted, but thats what society (led by the leftist media) has
deemed to be the way we now live our lives

I can see the lawsuits rolling in if transgender athletes are excluded from funding and competition

Did society decide this? I don't remember a vote on it. It seems to me that governments have decided to acquiesce to the demands of a bunch of Qunago's and supranational bodies that have decided to impose this on society and then ensured that anybody that disagrees can fear for their liberty, job and rights by speaking against it.


How far do you imagine this nonsense would get if they actually asked people what they really thought?

meeeeh

I suspect rules will change again with more research and so on. However she is in there in accordance to therules. The same as some national football teams benefit by including players born outside their country.

Anyway it's weight lifting. It will be probably won by someone who took more male hormones than a man can produce in a lifetime.

BluePlanet

Maybe a better solution is to just have 'sport' and not segregate based on sex.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, this thread is going exactly as I suspected it to go.

I miss decent old boards.ie

But besides seeing transphobia when it's not intended, do you not understand why women consider this an unfair development?

FTA69

FTA69 wrote: »

The sad thing is that transgenderism is a real thing and has existed since time immemorial. People with gender dysmorphia aren't chancers or sickos etc, it’s the way they are and like any group of people they want to get on in life for the most part. I’m perfectly happy accepting that, referring to people how they want to be called and all that. No problem. I imaging transitioning is a very difficult thing to do that the vast majority of people do not do lightly.


There is however, a big jump from the above to, “transwomen are women and there’s no debate”. It raises the question what exactly is a woman? Is it just something you can identify as handily enough? By that logic can someone like Rachel Dolezal identify as black? Arguably race is far more of a social construct than something like gender is. I don’t see the difference to be honest. Not identifying with gender is an acceptable thing; something also done by camp men and butch lesbians to a large extent. There’s a big difference between that and denying immutable biological reality.

To say that being a woman is only something you can identify into or out of with a pronoun is absurdism in the extreme to be honest.

Exactly. Calling these objections transphobia is despicable. So unfair on women. And there's no question as to who a woman is.

Tilden Katz

silverharp wrote: »

Weight is only part of it, a man and a woman who weighted the same would still have different potentials like for like, men have a different skeletal structure, centre of gravity, different ratios of upper body strength , larger lung capacity and many more, you couldnt come up with a way to nerf a dude so they could compete fairly with a woman.
At least it will make the Olympics interesting allbeit in the sht show sense

Absolutely. I remember as an 18 year old, being pinned down by my friend's 14 year old brother. I really struggled to get him off me. We were a similar size but even at that age, he was way, way stronger than me.

Kaybaykwah

Yes well I remember when at the Munich Olympics the East German female swimmers looked like your Irish Nationial Rugby crew. If the whole of the Russian Olympic team can be set on a shelf for an undetermined fraction taking performance enhancers, then yes, the trans athlete also has a past to be reviewed, albeit, a masculine one.


One of the nonsensical factors is that the athlete in question need be somewhat degraded with the use of hormones or other drugs to compete equally. This goes against all that has characterized competitive sports in the modern era, where everything is put in place to gain an advantage, at all costs. It's a nice problem to ponder, but I'm glad I am not dealing with it.

Tilden Katz

silverharp wrote: »

thats the joke... , but there Blue checkmarks out there that you would need to convince

https://twitter.com/TitaniaMcGrath/status/1403303415162212353

Charlotte Clymer. LOL.

wpd

conorhal wrote: »

Did society decide this? I don't remember a vote on it. It seems to me that governments have decided to acquiesce to the demands of a bunch of Qunago's and supranational bodies that have decided to impose this on society and then ensured that anybody that disagrees can fear for their liberty, job and rights by speaking against it.


How far do you imagine this nonsense would get if they actually asked people what they really thought?

Yes i agree with your sentiment above entirely, hard to put the genie back in the bottle now though

Knex*

At age 15 or 16, my GAA team played the All Ireland Lady club champions in a friendly. Half their team played for their county and were perennial winners.

We were a decent underage team with a couple of players who'd be in and around the under age Cork squads, but likely nobody who'd be close to making the senior team.

Game was hyped up as it was a local event, and everyone thought the underage lads were gonna get a hammering. We beat them by about 35 points, and had to take our foot off the gas as the physicality mismatch was just unreal. It was actually a little awkward by the end, especially when you consider how competitive the women were and how used to winning they were.

They had better technique, but it really counts for nothing when up against lads who've just gone through puberty, unfortunately.

This whole thing is mental to me, and I'm really saddened that joy of sport and competition could be absolutely ruined for women if we continue to allow this to happen.

ceadaoin.

BluePlanet wrote: »

Maybe a better solution is to just have 'sport' and not segregate based on sex.

Then women, the old fashioned xx kind, will barely win anything and will risk becoming severely injured in many sports in the process. Unless that's what you want of course?

Why should the solution to this be to do away with hard won fairness for women?

groovyg

Women have had to fight for a long time for inclusiveness in sports and sports competitions. Weightlifting for women only became an Olympic competition in 2000 and now they have this situation of trans athletes taking part and it will affect women's sports a lot more than men.

There have been two reviews published this year in sports medicine journals.
One first-authored by a trans woman—Joanna Harper
How does hormone transition in transgender women change body composition, muscle strength and haemoglobin? Systematic review with a focus on the implications for sport participation
and one of the conclusions is that

In transwomen, hormone therapy rapidly reduces Hgb to levels seen in cisgender women. In contrast, hormone therapy decreases strength, LBM and muscle area, yet values remain above that observed
in cisgender women, even after 36 months. These findings suggest that strength may be well preserved in transwomen during the first 3 years of hormone therapy.

The Second
Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage and one of the conclusions is that muscular advantage of transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed.

World Rugby also undertook a study on transgender athletes and transgender women are not allowed play because of the size, force- and power-producing advantages conferred by testosterone during puberty and adolescence, and the resultant player welfare risks this creates
https://www.world.rugby/the-game/player-welfare/guidelines/transgender

Ross Tucker a sports physiologist - did a really informative podcast on transgender athletes in women's sport.

Separate categories give males and females equal opportunities of sporting success. By including trans athletes its going to cause exclusion especially for women's sports.

meeeeh

I don't remember such an outrage when doped up athletes are beating clean athletes easily.

Anyway it's hardly floodgates, it's one woman in a relatively niche sport. The rules will evolve and might be different from sport to sport.

Tilden Katz

Christy42 wrote: »

I mean maybe we don't need to entirely revisit how we look at sports over a few people? We have had transgender athletes for a while and yet there is a total of 1?!? athletes at the biggest sporting comp going.

That's because there was a rule change in 2015 that was too soon to be implemented at the 2016 Olympics. People like to say that transgender athletes have been allowed since 2004. That's true BUT the rules were slackened significantly in 2015. We have not yet had a chance to see what effects they may have. But the IOC has even said that they think the new rules implemented in 2015 might be too lenient. We don't yet know if Hubbard will be the only transgender athlete at the Olympics either. But for me personally, one is too many.

BluePlanet

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Then women, the old fashioned xx kind, will barely win anything and will risk becoming severely injured in many sports in the process. Unless that's what you want of course?

Why should the solution to this be to do away with hard won fairness for women?

Not true at all.

What it will do, is see the creation of sports and strategies within sports, where the physical qualities of women are an advantage.
Women are generally shorter than men, with a lower center of gravity, so we should see the rise of sports or strategies where that lower gravity and shorter height is an advantage, for example.

You are aware of how the issue has arisen?
It comes because sports were the exclusive purview of men, and women were excluded.

Fast forward and today, you have women taking legal action for the right to compete in 'mens' sports'. For example in wrestling (the olympic sport not the TV shows) girls in US high schools have fought for a long time for the right to compete.
The last decade some schools are allowing it, and the girls are usually competitive.
Here's one that won the state championship:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLHcx9PfYjU

It's only a matter of time before these girls demand to be let in the Olympics.

Tilden Katz

Deleted User wrote: »

Martina Navratalova's tennis coach, Renée Richards, is a transwoman who played tennis professionally in women's competitions in the 70s. In her mid-to-late forties, while she played professionally alongside young women in their twenties in peak physical condition, her highest rank was 20th.

t.ly/pZuj

Renée Richards is opposed to transgender women competing with women.

And I think ranking 20th in her late 40s against much younger women at the peak of their powers still demonstrates the benefits of a male puberty. Considering there would be 100s of elite female tennis players.

Tilden Katz

Tilden Katz wrote: »

Renée Richards is opposed to transgender women competing with women.

And I think ranking 20th in her late 40s against much younger women at the peak of their powers still demonstrates the benefits of a male puberty. Considering there would be 100s of elite female tennis players.

Yep. That was my point.

BluePlanet

BluePlanet wrote: »

The last decade some schools are allowing it, and the girls are usually competitive.
Here's one that won the state championship:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLHcx9PfYjU

It's possible that on a school-by-school level, where there are usually very few people wrestling anyway, the girls may be similarly skilled and strong as the boys. It's also possible that, occasionally, a girl will win a mixed championship. But you cannot honestly think that doing away with sex categories will result in anywhere near an even split of wrestling champions from each sex.

Most "men's" sports are not sex-exclusive. Women just seldom qualify to complete in them.

yerwanthere123

Can you support transgender rights but not support this? Cause that's pretty much where I am.

KeepItLight

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't remember such an outrage when doped up athletes are beating clean athletes easily.

Anyway it's hardly floodgates, it's one woman in a relatively niche sport. The rules will evolve and might be different from sport to sport.

What are you talking about? Doped-up athletes were a major global news story for weeks, and there were Oscar-nominated documentaries made about the topic that everyone saw and talked about.

Tilden Katz

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't remember such an outrage when doped up athletes are beating clean athletes easily.

Anyway it's hardly floodgates, it's one woman in a relatively niche sport. The rules will evolve and might be different from sport to sport.

What? You're joking, right? I have in the past witnessed athletes under suspicion of doping being booed by Olympics spectators. And pretty much everyone took a dim view of Russian's recent state doping programme. The Russian athletes who got to the Olympics via various loopholes were not well-received.

And I hate the attitude that because it's just one sport, that it's not important. Is the woman who missed out here unimportant? Just mere collateral? That's something I touched on earlier. Sport is apparently very important when it comes to inclusion of transgender athletes. But when a woman is excluded, suddenly the attitude is "Ah, who cares? It's just sport". So is sport important or isn't it? People can't have it both ways.

BluePlanet

Deleted User wrote: »

But you cannot honestly think that doing away with sex categories will result in anywhere near an even split of wrestling champions from each sex.
.

I said nothing of the sort.
What i said, was by having a mixed sex sport, should allow the development of sports and strategies whereby the physical characteristics of women becomes an advantage.

yerwanthere123

yerwanthere123 wrote: »

Can you support transgender rights but not support this? Cause that's pretty much where I am.

Yes. You can.

BluePlanet

BluePlanet wrote: »

I said nothing of the sort.

So you're just for throwing out sex categorties and hoping that these new sports that mostly women excel at will just happen along at some point?

Or something else?

Airyfairy12

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't remember such an outrage when doped up athletes are beating clean athletes easily.

Anyway it's hardly floodgates, it's one woman in a relatively niche sport.

I think youre missing the point. Its hardly a relatively niche sport if its considered to be an Olympic sport. Every contestant involved worked hard for their place and all those biological women stand a much slimmer chance of achieving their goal because a trans woman is taking part. A biological woman lost her place to make room for a trans women.
When it comes to trans women & biological womens rights, trans women trump biological women every time it seems.
I can accept a trans woman as a woman, I can call anyone by any term they wish to be called by. I wont disregard facts for the sake of the trans community feelings of insecurities.
A trans woman was once a male, regardless of how they felt about themselves at the time, their body was male! There is no undoing the differences in male and female bodies, no matter how much a trans person wants this to be the case.
Biological women, who worked extremely hard to get to the place theyre at have now had a massive barrier put in their way. Theyre expected to compete against someone who has the body, bone density, muscle mass and build of a man. Theyre now collectively at a disadvantage, the bar has been moved and they have work 10 times harder to win as the trans woman does. An uneven playing field has been created where the women are solely at a disadvantage.
This is totally unfair and to make it worse, any woman that stands up against it is labelled as a TERF. A sexist term freely used against women when they try to protect their rights, by the trans community.

Words, terms and phrases associated with biological women/female anatomy are slowly dissipating from health and educational resources as they offend trans women.
Safe public women's spaces like changing rooms & toilets where women and girls are vulnerable are being opened up to trans women with no surgery.
Now, trans women who retain the strength, body mass, bone & muscle density of their male bodies are permitted to compete against women in female only sports teams.
This is an escalating issue that is already leaving women at a massive disadvantage. Why arent womens right being considered at all in any of this?

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't remember such an outrage when doped up athletes are beating clean athletes easily.

Were you born?

At least you acknowledge that the advantage is comparable.

Yeah_Right

I support transgender rights. If you want to transition to the other gender and I'll use the term you ask me to use. As long as it's not some stupid made up word.

As a guy who was an elite level athlete many years ago, I think this is unfair. If I had transitioned to being a woman, I'd probably be an Olympic champion. As it is, I was simply very good at the sports I competed in.

As a kiwi, I think this is great. As long as she wins the gold. Anything to push us up the medal table. Go girl!!

BluePlanet

Deleted User wrote: »

So you're just for throwing out sex categorties and hoping that these new sports that mostly women excel at will just happen along at some point?

Or something else?

Yes, organically just as it should develop.

But there are other benefits, it should drive equality of pay, and equality for women generally in other jurisdictions like the ME.

BluePlanet

BluePlanet wrote: »

Yes, organically just as it should develop.

But there are other benefits, it should drive equality of pay, and equality for women generally in other jurisdictions like the ME.

How would women being crowded out of sport almost entirely drive equal pay and equality?

BluePlanet

Deleted User wrote: »

How would women being crowded out of sport almost entirely drive equal pay and equality?

I see no reason that women athletes are unable to develop sporting strategies where their physical characteristics are an advantage?

seems like your saying: women are different and can't compete with men. They should be segregated and (paid less)?

BloodBath

BluePlanet wrote: »

Yes, organically just as it should develop.

But there are other benefits, it should drive equality of pay, and equality for women generally in other jurisdictions like the ME.

You do realize that in a lot of sports only the top athletes make a decent living in their field. If it becomes mixed the majority of women wouldn't even get through the qualifying stage never mind be one of the top athletes that actually makes a living off of their sport.

Those female tennis stars like the Williams sisters that do pretty good would be gone in an instant with almost no televised time or sponsorship deals as 1 example.

You're talking out of your arse.