First olympic transgender athlete to compete at Tokyo 2020 **MOD NOTE IN OP**

martingriff

Going by results I have seen not sure a medal is a sure thing. I don't think it should be allowed. Larel gets a medal uproar, Laurel does bad uproar. The decision just seemed arbitrary

SouthWesterly

Mike Murdock wrote: »

They do that and their careers are over. They'll be labelled transphobes and almost certainly lose sponsorships because of it. The mob on Social Media will make sure of it.

If that's the case they need to grow some testerone creating organs and make a stand for whats right.

If they won't then they need to stop moaning and get on with it.

Rothko

Rothko wrote: »

I think that'd be better than them being heartless. Instead it's just down to stupidity or being uneducated.

It’s not that they’re uneducated. It’s that they are very, VERY educated in an awful, damaging, internally inconsistent ideology, and taught to silence heretics and stick their fingers in their ears when obvious contradictions arise.

wpd

El Gato De Negocios wrote: »

I would absolutely love to see the other entrants make a stand on this matter and refuse to compete. Default award the gold to this individual to highlight the ridiculousness of the whole thing.

so you think the other entrants victimising here would make a postive statement??
If she has complied with the rules and qualified then I dont think such a display is fair.
The issue is whether the rules should allow to be there competing

AllForIt

As someone of a compeditive nature myself (in 2 individual sports) I can't fathom how that weighlifter can in good conscience feel good about beating others when there isn't a level playing field. Mind you she wouldn't be the only person to have a win at all costs attitude in sport, with all the advangaes it brings them when one is succesful.

meeeeh

El Gato De Negocios wrote: »

I would absolutely love to see the other entrants make a stand on this matter and refuse to compete. Default award the gold to this individual to highlight the ridiculousness of the whole thing.

Yes let's make them stand on this while ignore this:

https://sportsmedicine-open.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40798-020-00293-4

As I said it's good that fairness in weight lifting is suddenly so important to some. Spare me the babble about fairness, sportsmanship and conscience.

endacl

wpd wrote: »

so you think the other entrants victimising here would make a postive statement??
If she has complied with the rules and qualified then I dont think such a display is fair.
The issue is whether the rules should allow to be there competing

Apparently, the issue of what is ‘fair’ isn’t a consideration…

meeeeh

endacl wrote: »

Apparently, the issue of what is ‘fair’ isn’t a consideration…

Considering the amount of golden medals won by doping you are a bit late to the party... You are placing disproportionate amount of attention to an athlete who will be nowhere near the medals and ignoring constant cheating through the decades. Hypocrisy at it's best and this thread is full of it.

Tilden Katz

meeeeh wrote: »

Considering the amount of golden medals won by doping you are a bit late to the party... You are placing disproportionate amount of attention to an athlete who will be nowhere near the medals and ignoring constant cheating through the decades. Hypocrisy at it's best and this thread is full of it.

How do you know that?

Are you still persisting with this whataboutery. Doping is a problem so let’s allow other forms of cheating? Not a great take.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Sadly, I don't think it's how little they care about women, I think it's how little they understand that biological men aren't the same as women.

Disagreed. They understand fully. Everyone does, since early childhood when you learned about whether you had a peepee or a weewee.

They're just indoctrinated and practising cognitive dissonance to a point way beyond absurdity.

I don't think they don't care about women in general but they do only care about certain women's issues of concern, dismissing others.

Gentlemanne

Not sure why the same posters who are thread banned from similar topics are allowed to post.

The same posters who say ohhh she's had male puberty so she has an advantage, were arguing against trans youth from getting healthcare.

So what are trans people meant to do? Reminds me of some oldies saying "oh I support gay rights... But.."

It's not about suddenly caring about weightlifting. I don't care about the sport of weightlifting. I do care though about members of my sex working hard to compete in particular tournaments and losing out to someone with different biology that gives them a physical advantage.

ceadaoin.

meeeeh wrote: »

Considering the amount of golden medals won by doping you are a bit late to the party... You are placing disproportionate amount of attention to an athlete who will be nowhere near the medals and ignoring constant cheating through the decades. Hypocrisy at it's best and this thread is full of it.

Why don't you start a thread about doping in sports rather than dragging this one off topic? This one is about laurel Hubbard, so obviously a "disproportionate amount" of posts will be about her lol. I mean, its literally in the title.

One thing I will say is history has shown the lengths some athletes will go to in order to cheat and win. They definitely wouldn't take advantage of these rules though.

Gentlemanne

Gentlemanne wrote: »

Not sure why the same posters who are thread banned from similar topics are allowed to post.

The same posters who say ohhh she's had male puberty so she has an advantage, were arguing against trans youth from getting healthcare.

So what are trans people meant to do? Reminds me of some oldies saying "oh I support gay rights... But.."

You can misrepresent it as condemnation of someone merely for being trans all you like - and you folks will because you don't have much else, but this is about an unfair situation for competitors. It does not mean the same thing as "I hate trans people".

And I don't understand why you're making out that it's hypocrisy to be against administering puberty blockers and against unfairness in women's sports. They're two different situations.

There isn't a situation where gay people were given the opportunity to have an unfair advantage.

Bizarre take from someone - saying that there's a bunch of hypocrites on this thread for objecting to this but ignoring doping in sports... even though there is zero evidence of the same members ignoring doping in sports, just the fact that it's not being discussed on a thread which isn't about doping in sports.

Schrodinger's thread.

Reminds me of:

https://youtu.be/xSVqLHghLpw

meeeeh

Tilden Katz wrote: »

How do you know that?

Are you still persisting with this whataboutery. Doping is a problem so let’s allow other forms of cheating? Not a great take.

There is a very simple thing you don't understand. Lauren Hubbard is not cheating. She is not breaking any rules unless she is doping like so many other weight lifters. So if you about cheating there is nothing to worry about in this regard.

It's not whataboutery it's about logic. Playing inside the rules = not cheating, playing outside the rules = cheating. I really don't know how much simpler I could make it but I'm pretty sure that my dog would understand it by now.

meeeeh

Lurleen wrote: »

Bizarre take from someone - saying that there's a bunch of hypocrites on this thread for objecting to this but ignoring doping in sports... even though there is zero evidence of the same members ignoring doping in sports, just the fact that it's not being discussed on a thread which isn't about doping in sports.

Schrodinger's thread.

Reminds me of:

https://youtu.be/xSVqLHghLpw

I thought the whole thread was about cheating dear not about the usual culture wars. But it's culture wars...

Yeah I do agree the criticism should be levelled at those who allowed it but also to some degree at Laurel, because she willingly participated. I absolutely do not think she should be abused for being trans.

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

I thought the whole thread was about cheating dear not about the usual culture wars. But it's culture wars...

What's the "dear" about? It seems to be the same all the time from a number of posters - getting sneery when someone disagrees. Why not just disagree back without getting snide!

meeeeh

Lurleen wrote: »

Yeah I do agree the criticism should be levelled at those who allowed it but also to some degree at Laurel, because she willingly participated. I absolutely do not think she should be abused for being trans.

Why should she be criticised? Because she competes in sport she likes in category she is entitled to? She is singled out as the only morally reprehensible competitor while the sport could be actually dropped from next Olympics because there is so much doping in it? I mean, come on...

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

Why should she be criticised?

For, as I said, knowingly entering with a physical advantage.

BattleCorp

Gentlemanne wrote: »

Not sure why the same posters who are thread banned from similar topics are allowed to post.

The same posters who say ohhh she's had male puberty so she has an advantage, were arguing against trans youth from getting healthcare.

So what are trans people meant to do? Reminds me of some oldies saying "oh I support gay rights... But.."

I think there should be a separate category for trans athletes.

We often see transwomen doing quite well in sport but it's very rare to see a transman doing well in sport. There's a huge physical sporting advantage to being born a biological male, going through puberty and then identifying/transitioning to become a transwoman.

meeeeh

Lurleen wrote: »

For, as I said, knowingly entering with a physical advantage.

All top athletes have physical advantage.

nullzero

meeeeh wrote: »

All top athletes have physical advantage.

A top male athlete will out perform a top female athlete every time.

This isn't a transphobia issue in fact it's probably more of a feminist issue in a way.

Mad_maxx

FTA69 wrote: »

The sad thing is that transgenderism is a real thing and has existed since time immemorial. People with gender dysmorphia aren't chancers or sickos etc, it’s the way they are and like any group of people they want to get on in life for the most part. I’m perfectly happy accepting that, referring to people how they want to be called and all that. No problem. I imaging transitioning is a very difficult thing to do that the vast majority of people do not do lightly.


There is however, a big jump from the above to, “transwomen are women and there’s no debate”. It raises the question what exactly is a woman? Is it just something you can identify as handily enough? By that logic can someone like Rachel Dolezal identify as black? Arguably race is far more of a social construct than something like gender is. I don’t see the difference to be honest. Not identifying with gender is an acceptable thing; something also done by camp men and butch lesbians to a large extent. There’s a big difference between that and denying immutable biological reality.

To say that being a woman is only something you can identify into or out of with a pronoun is absurdism in the extreme to be honest.

I think most people accept that a tiny tiny percentage of people are deeply unhappy with how they were born and decide to have a sex change ,that is not new, what is new however is the idea that so many are conflicted about the bits they were born with , that we need three kind of bathrooms in public buildings and institutions ?

humans dont change that much that quick that so many are unsure of their sex that classes need to be taught about it in schools

volchitsa

meeeeh wrote: »

All top athletes have physical advantage.

So why bother with weight categories at all then? By that logic they’re not needed.

nullzero

nullzero wrote: »

A top male athlete will out perform a top female athlete every time.

This isn't a transphobia issue in fact it's probably more of a feminist issue in a way.

It's one hundred per cent a feminist issue.

astrofool

nullzero wrote: »

A top male athlete will out perform a top female athlete every time.

This isn't a transphobia issue in fact it's probably more of a feminist issue in a way.

A non-elite male athlete will also out perform an elite female athlete.

ceadaoin.

meeeeh wrote: »

All top athletes have physical advantage.

Hubbard didn't seem to have a physical advantage when competing against men. At least not enough of one to make the Olympics and break records. Wonder why suddenly this advantage has become so apparent at quite an advanced age for a professional athlete? Just luck I guess

Gentlemanne

Gentlemanne wrote: »

Not sure why the same posters who are thread banned from similar topics are allowed to post.

Heaven forfend people be permitted to post things that an extreme and extremist minority don’t like to read.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Heaven forfend people be permitted to post things that an extreme and extremist minority don’t like to read.

I'm assuming they used hateful, hurtful language about trans people rather than simply saying sex is immutable?

McGinniesta

Vestiapx wrote: »

Yer wan Jenner was an Olympic athlete iirc?

A man at the time that competed against men

joe40

I think this just plays into the hands of the actual transphobes. I have no problem with transgender people living life how they please.
However in the field of competitive physical sports I just think it is wrong to discount the benefit of male puberty that transwomen have.

I have no intention of ridiculing trans people but sport should be as fair as possible. That is why doping is so reprehensible.

Top female athletes will be physically better than the vast majority of Men but they won't be better than the top male athletes.

Shield

Gentlemanne wrote: »

Not sure why the same posters who are thread banned from similar topics are allowed to post.

At a guess, their thread ban has shown them the error of their ways and they have now altered their posting style so they can have their voice heard.

I think it’s important we hear as many voices as possible on this topic which is why I think topic bans are a bad idea.

If you disagree with experts giving their opinion on the issue of unfairness, I’d love to hear why. What I would NOT like is for you to be silenced because your opinion is different to mine.

...Ghost...

Lurleen wrote: »

I'm assuming they used hateful, hurtful language about trans people rather than simply saying sex is immutable?

No. Some are just threadbanned for being off topic even if answering a question. Some mods are pretty cool and let threads carry on as long as there is a reasonable level of respect and on topic discussion. Others have a different way/view and throw out cards and warnings like rice at a wedding.

It's a bit sad to assume people were threadbanned for the worst reasons.

notobtuse

Personally I don't like it one bit where a male who went through puberty where bone, muscle and body mass is developed should be allowed to compete in women's sports. And if this nonsense continues I'd say just do away with men's and women's sports and have only neutral sports, where the athletes compete strictly on their abilities.

...Ghost...

...Ghost... wrote: »

No. Some are just threadbanned for being off topic even if answering a question. Some mods are pretty cool and let threads carry on as long as there is a reasonable level of respect and on topic discussion. Others have a different way/view and throw out cards and warnings like rice at a wedding.

Oh I know. Was being iro-castic.

Reading this, I'll feel a lot better the next time I put my niece or nephew in goal in the back garden and blast 5 goals past them.

BloodBath

meeeeh wrote: »

Yes let's make them stand on this while ignore this:

https://sportsmedicine-open.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40798-020-00293-4

As I said it's good that fairness in weight lifting is suddenly so important to some. Spare me the babble about fairness, sportsmanship and conscience.

What kind of deflection is this? Doping is illegal. It still happens sure but that has nothing to do with this thread topic.

meeeeh wrote: »

There is a very simple thing you don't understand. Lauren Hubbard is not cheating. She is not breaking any rules unless she is doping like so many other weight lifters. So if you about cheating there is nothing to worry about in this regard.

It's not whataboutery it's about logic. Playing inside the rules = not cheating, playing outside the rules = cheating. I really don't know how much simpler I could make it but I'm pretty sure that my dog would understand it by now.

The rules are bollocks, that's the argument.

Basing eligibility on a basic testosterone level test makes 0 sense and it's completely unfair to legitimate female athletes akin to cheating.

Tilden Katz

Gentlemanne wrote: »

Not sure why the same posters who are thread banned from similar topics are allowed to post.

The same posters who say ohhh she's had male puberty so she has an advantage, were arguing against trans youth from getting healthcare.

So what are trans people meant to do? Reminds me of some oldies saying "oh I support gay rights... But.."

Do you think people should be banned from a topic entirely? And what’s the story with playing the man and not the ball?

As for minors getting potent life-changing treatment, the link you seem to be making here is “Well if minors are given these (untested) drugs young enough, then they won’t go through the male puberty that bestows all these great physical advantages. Et voila, they can compete with females!”. I’m not seeing why you would think it strange or contradictory that people would oppose both of these things. The treatments that prevent these minors from going through male (or female) puberty are fraught with ethical issues. Naturally, many people oppose them.

Yes, having to go through the puberty of their birth sex could mean exclusion from the sport of their choice. But then we’re back to “Is sport important?”. An athlete has missed on an Olympic spot due to Hubbard qualifying. Does it matter or not that sport would be very important to her or she wouldn’t have devoted her life to training in that event? Is sport important or isn’t it? Some people only seem to think so when the transgender athlete is missing out. When people like this women are, the attitude seems to be “Sure, it’s just sport!”.

Tilden Katz

meeeeh wrote: »

There is a very simple thing you don't understand. Lauren Hubbard is not cheating. She is not breaking any rules unless she is doping like so many other weight lifters. So if you about cheating there is nothing to worry about in this regard.

It's not whataboutery it's about logic. Playing inside the rules = not cheating, playing outside the rules = cheating. I really don't know how much simpler I could make it but I'm pretty sure that my dog would understand it by now.

The whataboutery about which I speak is you bringing up doping and people’s apparent lack of interest in it, as you well know. And if you don’t know then I wouldn’t be pontificating to others about their lack of comprehension. And you’re attacking the poster, not the post there, by the way. If you need to resort to insults...

Anyway, sure let Laurel have her entirely without honour and meaningless placing, whatever it may be. She has agency and could have stepped aside. If she doesn’t, many people will judge her for it as they are free to do. There’s no requirement to think her admirable.

Tilden Katz

notobtuse wrote: »

Personally I don't like it one bit where a male who went through puberty where bone, muscle and body mass is developed should be allowed to compete in women's sports. And if this nonsense continues I'd say just do away with men's and women's sports and have only neutral sports, where the athletes compete strictly on their abilities.

Bye bye, women’s sports for the most part then.

notobtuse

Tilden Katz wrote: »

Bye bye, women’s sports for the most part then.

Absolutely. Sacrifices must be made in the name of inclusiveness. Unless you think there are physical diferences between a biological female and biological male... but then you'd be on the wrong side of wokeness.

RIP Women's Sports 1900 - 2021.

ThunbergsAreGo

notobtuse wrote: »

Absolutely. Sacrifices must be made in the name of inclusiveness. Unless you think there are physical diferences between a biological female and biological male... but then you'd be on the wrong side of wokeness.

RIP Women's Sports 1900 - 2021.

Sacrifices seem to be one way. If I want to live as a women then I can do that (or anyone can) but maybe I need to give up my ambitions of being a top level sports person.

I would think that would be worth it to live in the gender I feel

Within the rules, but extremely unsporting. Shame on you, Laurel 'Hollow Victory' Hubbard.

McFly85

Sport at an elite level should have nothing to do with inclusiveness. Men and women who succeed at that level have to work insanely hard to do so, so they should be guaranteed a level playing field when they make it.

Allowing someone to compete against biological women when they have transitioned after fully developing as a man seems incredibly unfair. I know there is articles and rules about how much testosterone they are currently producing but the question needs to be asked: Had Laurel transitioned at an earlier point in life would she be in a position at 43 to compete in the olympics? It's highly doubtful. And if that's the case, then her development as a male has categorically helped her to this position.

I would say it's unfortunate for them, because there may be loads of reasons they weren't able to transition early in life, but elite sport is harsh. Hearing you'll never be able to compete at a top level is something a lot of sportspeople go through. How many women have been told they have great gymnastic ability, but because of their body type they'll never be good enough to compete? How many men have been great goalkeepers but simply too short to be good enough to make it professionally? Also, practically every transman athlete would have had to ask themselves the same question - do I transition and lose the ability to partake in elite sport?

I would consider myself pro-trans, everyone should be able to live in whatever way makes them comfortable, but there are some instances where the seemingly pro-trans position is actually moreso anti-cis women, and I think this is definitely one of those times.

FileNotFound

McFly85 wrote: »

Sport at an elite level should have nothing to do with inclusiveness. Men and women who succeed at that level have to work insanely hard to do so, so they should be guaranteed a level playing field when they make it.

Allowing someone to compete against biological women when they have transitioned after fully developing as a man seems incredibly unfair. I know there is articles and rules about how much testosterone they are currently producing but the question needs to be asked: Had Laurel transitioned at an earlier point in life would she be in a position at 43 to compete in the olympics? It's highly doubtful. And if that's the case, then her development as a male has categorically helped her to this position.

I would say it's unfortunate for them, because there may be loads of reasons they weren't able to transition early in life, but elite sport is harsh. Hearing you'll never be able to compete at a top level is something a lot of sportspeople go through. How many women have been told they have great gymnastic ability, but because of their body type they'll never be good enough to compete? How many men have been great goalkeepers but simply too short to be good enough to make it professionally? Also, practically every transman athlete would have had to ask themselves the same question - do I transition and lose the ability to partake in elite sport?

I would consider myself pro-trans, everyone should be able to live in whatever way makes them comfortable, but there are some instances where the seemingly pro-trans position is actually moreso anti-cis women, and I think this is definitely one of those times.

Good way to sum it up actually.

One eyed Jack

McFly85 wrote: »

Also, practically every transman athlete would have had to ask themselves the same question - do I transition and lose the ability to partake in elite sport?

Chris Mosier probably did ask themselves that question alright, and answered it too when they went about campaigning to have the IOC change their rules around athletes who are transgender and their eligibility to compete in competitions -


While he qualified, Mosier was uncertain about his eligibility to compete in the Duathlon Age Group World Championship Race in Spain in June 2016 due to the International Olympic Committee policy around the participation of transgender athletes, with specific provisions from the Stockholm Consensus in 2004. In 2015, Mosier challenged the policy, resulting in the creation and adoption of new IOC guidelines for the participation of transgender athletes. Mosier was considered the catalyst for change in the policy in January 2016, after he successfully advocated for change in the policy to allow his participation in the World Championship and future races. Following the policy change, in 2016 Mosier raced in the International Triathlon Union Sprint Duathlon World Championship race in Aviles, Spain, becoming the first known transgender athlete to compete in the World Championship race.


They didn’t try and hide behind excuses about “biological advantages” when it was the eligibility criteria, were limiting their ability to partake in elite sport.

Mad_maxx

joe40 wrote: »

I think this just plays into the hands of the actual transphobes. I have no problem with transgender people living life how they please.
However in the field of competitive physical sports I just think it is wrong to discount the benefit of male puberty that transwomen have.

I have no intention of ridiculing trans people but sport should be as fair as possible. That is why doping is so reprehensible.

Top female athletes will be physically better than the vast majority of Men but they won't be better than the top male athletes.

There are a lot of gay people so 'homophoebe " is a credible term

There are a miniscule number of people who get sex changes ,it doesn't warrant a term like ' transpphoebe "

Most people will never meet someone who had a sex change ,it doesn't warrant a social movement

McFly85

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Chris Mosier probably did ask themselves that question alright, and answered it too when they went about campaigning to have the IOC change their rules around athletes who are transgender and their eligibility to compete in competitions -


While he qualified, Mosier was uncertain about his eligibility to compete in the Duathlon Age Group World Championship Race in Spain in June 2016 due to the International Olympic Committee policy around the participation of transgender athletes, with specific provisions from the Stockholm Consensus in 2004. In 2015, Mosier challenged the policy, resulting in the creation and adoption of new IOC guidelines for the participation of transgender athletes. Mosier was considered the catalyst for change in the policy in January 2016, after he successfully advocated for change in the policy to allow his participation in the World Championship and future races. Following the policy change, in 2016 Mosier raced in the International Triathlon Union Sprint Duathlon World Championship race in Aviles, Spain, becoming the first known transgender athlete to compete in the World Championship race.


They didn’t try and hide behind excuses about “biological advantages” when it was the eligibility criteria, were limiting their ability to partake in elite sport.

My point was not around transmen being denied the option to compete, it’s was around the idea that if they decide to transition, they will have to accept that the level they practice their sport at as a man could be lower than they do as a woman.

That same article states that Chris had to give up his top ranking as a woman to compete as a man, and clearly he’s happier for it even though he has a lower ranking - its that most other transmen athletes must decide if they’d be happy with it also.

You’ll won’t hear many complaints for Female to Male trans people in sport anyway, as starting out as female would have little if any perceived benefits for most sports.