What whisk(e)y are we drinking? (Part 2)

Beanstalk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118445485#Comment_118445485

Still have half a bottle left. Lovely drop!

Cazale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118445485#Comment_118445485

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449436#Comment_118449436

Believe it or not it's my first full bottle of single grain whiskey. I should have bought another at the time!

Cazale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446120#Comment_118446120

From memory the standard version (43%) is creamier and smoother whilst the inaugural version (46%) had a bit more spice to it.

I've read that the standard version is the better of the two for some. I have a 30ml sample of the standard version so I'll try them side by side to compare soon.

Just stumbled on this thread and thought I’d share. My colleagues, knowing I like my whiskey, bought me this when I changed job last year. Anyone know it? 274 bottles made and it’s expensive enough….couple of hundred or thereabouts. It’s a really long crisp finish on it.

Cazale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118456726#Comment_118456726

Nice present! Coincidentally I've been reading up about the Glen Spey distillery. It's owned by Diageo and is one of the many distilleries they have in Scotland that produce solely for blends rather than their own bottlings. Glen Spey makes 1.4 million litres of alcohol a year which all goes into J&B blended whisky. To put that into context I think there are probably only five distilleries in Ireland making more per annum.

Diageo had a series called Flora and Fauna which was Single Malts from a number of those distilleries that mainly produce for blends or that are lesser known. I got a sample set of six of these at Christmas including a 12 year old Glen Spey. Hence the research! This is the only time in it's history that there has been an official release from Glen Spey.

Any releases are from independent bottlers who have acquired single casks. Don't know anything about your bottle but a 25 year old Single Malt from Glen Spey isn't something your going to find too often.

Deagol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118457527#Comment_118457527

Your mention of the Flora and Fauna. Was talking to a colleague of mine earlier today and he has 3x bottles of Rosebank Flora and Fauna he got as a present in early 90's before it closed. It's now reopening so might become very collectable

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118457527#Comment_118457527

Thanks! That’s very interesting. It was indeed a standout gift.

I didn’t understand how this independent bottler aspect of the industry worked. Seems that AD Rattray is a very old whisky company in Ayrshire - established in 1868. Would be interesting to visit the shop

https://www.adrattray.com/

Black Sheep

I didn't know anything about Glen Spey but I looked up some reviews of their output and it seems that a few decades ago they had a better reputation internationally as a good example of Speyside whisky. I gather that the likes of the 25 year old you have should be a nice example of that, if it came from a good cask.

I'm a big fan of these kinds of bottlings, there's tremendous value to be had. Berry Bros, Douglas Laing and others will often offer bottlings of a distillery's output at an age and price you just won't find elsewhere. They'll have slightly less cachet that a distillery release and it can be a gamble on a cask, but nonetheless, I'm a fan.

Cazale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118457752#Comment_118457752

Looked those up. Worth €400+ a bottle so a very nice present to have. I hope he at least drinks one of them!

Deagol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463502#Comment_118463502

I was trying to finagle one from him but he's got three kids and three bottles so guess what he's thinking of .... bah humbug....

Black Sheep

I musing my next purchase last night. I'm passing through NI tonight and thought I would buy either a young Laphroaig or a young Ardbeg.

The recent history of these two distilleries is one of parallel choices. Perhaps not deliberately, there are wider trends at play, but I do think Ardbeg in particular sometimes seems to call the jig - for other Islay distilleries at least.

Although his name is mud now (Among "the woke" anyway), it was Jim Murray's enthusiasm for Ardbeg's heavy hitting NAS output in the late 90s and 00s that was the vanguard in a proliferation of them in Scotch at large. A business driven decision that found an important critic to champion it on a taste basis. I don't think the current Uigeadail, Supernova etc quite reach the heady potency of the early Ardbeg NAS but they are still remarkable whiskies, and they're so instantly recognisable... The ABV, the chill filtering, the nose and complexity...

I don't think Laphroaig had pushed a premium NAS bracket as hard as Ardbeg has. Lore and PX Cask are probably the closest, with Lore being the closer of the two to being a high end option.

The more recent wave of releases in Scotch has been for younger whiskies, both with and without age statements.

We had Lagavulin 8 and others, but sticking with Ardbeg and Laphroaig we have Wee Beastie (5 years old) and Select (Probably mostly a similar age, but it's NAS).

What's funny is that the reviewing by Murray has largely flipped now. He worked for and championed Ardbeg massively, but now if you read his recent work he's saying that it's Laphroaig which has found its feet with its current line-up and he gives massive scores to the Quarter Cask, Select etc. Wee Beastie he regards as a wasted opportunity, he warns the peat is throttled back and it's an uninteresting whisky despite the higher ABV.

I'll be grabbing a Lagavulin 8, a Wee Beastie or a Select this evening... My wallet says get the 8, if it's a good price, my OCD says get Wee Beastie as I will then have the entire core Ardbeg line-up on my shelves, but my curiosity says get the Select...

Beanstalk

Where will you be grabbing the 8? I see the Select on offer a lot but have been put off by it through other posters. I have a couple of spare bottles of 10 lying about in the meantime. The Quarter Cask is a beautiful drop, I'm enjoying it more than a recently opened Uigedail at the moment but I only sampled the Uigedail upon opening. I did the get the Wee Beastie and it is great, but lacking a substantial finish which is a shame.

Black Sheep

I'll get it in Tesco NI, even without access to a clubcard it looks like all of the whiskies I mentioned are to be had a lot cheaper than what they are in Dublin.

I have no doubt that the Select will always remain less popular than the 10. It's NAS, but that aside, the barrels used are a bit of a hodge podge and at the end of the day the fashion for distilleries offering young bottlings is a trend. It's a trend I like, but you have to know what you're getting and what the purpose is. It's not a safe bet, it's more of a "I like this distillery, let's see what their whisky is like at a much younger age than you'd typically be offered it". I wouldn't expect it to be as good as a proven part of the core line-up, but if you're a fan then at least it'll be interesting, if nothing else.

Worth bearing in mind that when people talk about a "young" Scotch, it's relative. This is still complex, accomplished whisky being turned out by distilleries that really know what they're doing. 5-8 year old Scotch, or whisky from the likes of Cotswold Distillery or even some of the U.S micro bourbon houses, is not necessarily that rough and ready.

I feel a little unpatriotic when I say this, but it seems to me that the new crop of Irish distilleries seem to fail to quite reach that bar. Waterford, Drumshambo, Dingle ... To me they don't escape a distinctive 'new make' tang that you don't really seem to find with young scotch or bourbon as often.

As far as other posters go, I take it all on board but you have to remember that there are mixed levels of experience and very different palates on the forum.

The Select is a bit of a marmite offering from what I've read. Jim Murray raves about it, and believes it is much better than Wee Beastie, whereas the chaps at Malt Review flip it the other way around and prefer the Ardbeg.

Beanstalk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118467457#Comment_118467457

Good point! Bunnahbahain Striureadear being another good example I suppose.

Regarding a clubcard, if you don't have access, from memory a workaround was to download the Tesco uk clubcard apk, and when you connect to the network roaming in NI you should be able to install it from there. From memory i think this worked for me but it not, vpn is the other option. Just stick in any generic postcode, change your settings to not receive offers by post and then you can use the clubcard through the app. Both Tescos in Derry have dissapointingly smaller selection of whiskies, i've never seen the Lagavulin on offer there sadly.

Black Sheep

I'll try that re the clubcard, thanks! Did a bit of reading on it yesterday but couldn't bottom it out.

I'm expecting to find Laphroaig in the Tesco in Enniskillen and they usually have a few other bits and pieces. Could be doing well to see Lagavulin 8 or Wee Beastie alright.

Electric Nitwit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118467896#Comment_118467896

I haven't tried this yet, so can't guarantee anyhting, but there's a thread in the bargains forum explaining how to sort a clubcard for the north...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058218699/using-tesco-clubcard-in-the-north-a-quick-guide

Quackster

Regarding UK Clubcard, I'd be more than happy to share my barcode (and pocket the points! 😁) but, as Beanstalk says, it's not too difficult to set up. Handiest way to do it is set up another Google account with the country set to 'UK' and add it to your phone. You'll then be able to install the UK Clubcard app and create an account.

£8 Clubcard saving on the Select right now is not to be scoffed at!

EugeC90

The date for Whiskey Live Dublin has just changed from March to the 10th & 11th of June. Just got issued revised tickets.

Cazale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118468639#Comment_118468639

Ah ffs! I was going to this on the Friday in March but don't think these new dates will work for me. Same with the lad I was going with. Its a shame as I had planned to fill my coat with samples Marge Simpson style.

Black Sheep

Ended up getting Ardbeg Wee Beastie and the Laphroaig Select in Tesco. No Lagavulin 8 / other Islay options.

As recommended I got a UK club card number by signing up using a parcel motel address. That was all that was needed, the last inputted that number at the till very readily.

I did try downloading the Uk app but even when roaming couldn’t. Rather than set up a UK setting for the App Store somehow I just did as I outlined above.

Saved 8 pound on the Select and 5 on the Wee Beastie. So 25 and 33 in total respectively.

Thanks to all.

Mark1006

Is anyone else having trouble with getting their poisons off Mitchell & Sons these days or am I just very unlucky? Would have never had a bad experience with them before but had a mini fiasco with my last order (took ages to send out, sparse communication and they end up giving me the wrong Greenspot finish in the end) and now I've a bottle of Redbreast that I thought I'd be sipping on New Years sitting in some Fastway depot with two weeks and they're none too bothered by my emails asking for a refund.

ZV Yoda

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118470542#Comment_118470542

I ordered a Bunnahabhain 12 and Dalmore 12 from them last week. They arrived 2 days later with no probs. That was my first time using them.

The Dalmore was delicious as usual. The jury's out on the Bunnahabhain for now.

Cazale

I'm trying and reviewing a rare Irish whiskey once a month. This month's review is Whites 22 (40%).

Hugh White & Co were a wine and spirit Merchants in Belfast that were formed in the 19th Century and operated until the 1960s. Their Whites 22 which we are reviewing today was originally advertised as being ‘guaranteed 22 years old’. Later bottles from the 1960s dropped the 22 years and just became ‘Whites 22’ Old Irish Whiskey. A subtle but importance difference as can be seen in the accompanying photos below. My sample was one of the ‘Whites 22’ bottles from the 1960s.

Back in the 1950s and 1960s an age statement of 22 years old would have been a big deal. But back then the regulations weren’t as stringent as they are today. Whilst now the age statement of a whiskey is based on its youngest element, Whites 22 could simply had a small amount of 22 year old whiskey mixed in with much younger stock. The guarantee on the label wasn’t worth more than the ink that printed it.

Whites didn’t distill their own whiskey so would have sourced it elsewhere for bottling under its own name. The source of Whites 22 is believed to be Jamesons which would have been distilled at the Bow Street distillery in Dublin. Jameson did not officially bottle their own whiskey until 1968 having previously only sold their whiskey by the barrel for others to sell on. The Bow Street distillery itself closed in 1971 so it’s always a pleasure to try liquid from there.

There is some thinking that stocks from the original Dunvilles in Belfast could have also been used in Whites 22. Dunvilles closed in 1936 but stocks of their whiskeys were still in existence in the 1950s. That fits in with the appearance of Whites 22 in the late 1950s but with little detail available we will never know for sure. That mystery is part of the fun with these older bottlings.

When trying really older Irish whiskey there are a number of variables to consider. How well the whiskey has stood up in the bottle. What the source of the whiskey is. Can we trust what the bottle and advertising says.

Modern Ireland distilleries have extensive wood maturation programmes and relationships with some of the best cooperages and bodegas in the world. Wood is more active now in whiskey maturation than back when the whiskey for Whites 22 was distilled and casks are better now. It wasn’t quite just throw the whiskey in any oak barrel but it wasn’t too far off either. A 22 year old whiskey from the 1950s or 1960s won’t have the same wood interaction as say a Bushmills 21 or Redbreast 21 with their bourbon and sherry cask influences.

The casks were more variable and maybe not designed to hold whiskey for decades back in the 1950s. The mash bill and distillate were more to the fore and more important than perhaps they are now.

I think it’s time we open this up and taste it. I always let these older whiskeys sit for awhile and spend some time with them. No noise distractions or smells from lit candles etc. I’ll try not to eat anything too adventurous beforehand so my palate is fresh. The sample I’m trying is 35ml and was from Belfast Whiskey Week.

There is a lot of oak on the nose. Whilst the age statement is in doubt, this is definitely an older whiskey. It’s musty. Dusty old carpet. It’s over aged and over oaked. Older casks were used.

This is a different kind of whiskey than what we are used to today. There’s a bitter taste to it. Rust. Soft metallic notes. Loads of oak again. An old style pot still whiskey and not grain. Spice from the wood. A dry finish.

This was another great experience of a rare and old Irish whiskey. I always feel privileged when I try these forgotten brands and releases. If Whites 22 came out in 2022 I don’t think it would be a success as its of a different time. But would a whiskey from today be a success if it was transported back to the 1960s?

Trying these older bottles in 2022 is a difficult experience to rate sometimes. These flavors don’t exist in contemporary whiskey and sampling Whites 22 is a glimpse of what Irish distillers were doing in the 1950s and 1960s. Seek this and whiskey of similar vintage out if you can.

Next month’s ‘Rare Irish’ is a visit to Sligo and a fortuitous sampling of Midleton Academy Edition No.1.

Originally posted at the link below where you can see some photos etc but it's not necessary to click if you only want to read the review.

https://onlydrams.wordpress.com/2022/01/14/whites-22-40/

Beanstalk

Cheers for these wonderful reviews and reminders of our unique malt cultural heritage @Cazale . Its much appreciated!

odyssey06

@Cazale are there any current readily available releases that most remind you of these older style whiskies?

ZV Yoda

@Cazale... that was a great read. Thx

Black Sheep

Some media coverage lately of the counterfeiting problem in high-end bourbon -

https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2022/01/more-bourbon-collectors-are-being-scammed-with-counterfeit-bottles/

https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/lifestyle/food-drink/that-us1000-bourbon-you-bought-may-be-a-phony

I make no comment on the accuracy of some of the facts presented in the above article (The amount of rare Scotch which is counterfeit, for example) but I do believe there is counterfeit and fraud going undetected in the community to a significant enough extent. Ireland to a lesser extent but I believe it occurs. The value of the likes of MVR on the secondary market mean that it's inevitable that attempts would be made.

I think detective is a massive challenge for not just the average punter but even people who believe they know their products. In my professional life I've had some limited experience with fraud and counterfeit activities and people consistently underestimate the sophistication of what goes on these days.

I have a bottle from the Buffalo Trace antique collection that is probably the only thing I currently have that could be counterfeit fodder, and I think it's important to say that if I scrutinise the labels, seal and so on it looks 100% in order. But with no frame of reference to compare it to, I do think that by inspection alone it's hard to tell a good counterfeit from the real thing. What makes me confident this is genuine is mainly the provenance... I got this from Master of Malt. If it was from a private seller in the U.S I would be a lot warier.

Also interesting to note that they're targeting bourbons that are lower cachet than that. The Elijah Craig barrel proof, for example... I can see how it is a clever one to counterfeit, definitely sought-after but not usually so pricey that anyone would think it was at risk of widespread counterfeit.

And of course the elephant in the room... There are a lot of people who will simply not be able to tell their bourbons apart, or distinguish between a low end Islay whisky decanted into a high end bottle, and so on. Perhaps at times myself included! If I got a duff purchase I would be more likely to chalk it down to a bad release or an off year or whatever. I once had a Glenmorangie 10 that tasted almost vegetal and mouldy. In hindsight, I wonder was it a bogey bottle ;)

Effects

If you haven't seen Sour Grapes, it's worth a watch. https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/a-true-crime-documentary-about-the-con-that-shook-the-world-of-wine

Some of his mistakes included counterfeiting bottles from vintages that didn't actually exist, and the current vineyard owner interrupting an auction to expose him.

I've often wondered if you could use something like the Coravin Wine Preservation System to replace the liquid in a bottle.

Black Sheep

A lot of what I see in terms of proposed solutions for counterfeiting address proving the provenance of the bottle or the label rather than the liquid within. A QR code that scans back to the distillery website, and can be authenticated, for example. This is probably a better option than holograms I think.

Plenty of measures to potentially address fake whisky in fake bottles... Harder to tackle fake whisky in genuine bottles, though for obvious reasons that is a less commonly encountered issue.

I can see how there will be high end measures like testing of bottle contents that might be appropriate for someone purchasing truly high end vintage whisky, but for the rest of us if you thought contents had been swapped out it could come down to how the bottle was sealed. I'm sure a lot of us haven't really paid much attention as we tear off shrink-wrap or whatever sort of seal there is on a bottle (Perhaps with a little bit of paper bearing a hologram or whatever...). When it comes to a professional-looking shrink-wrapped seal, that's easily enough duplicated, I would think.

A good read here, on the history of counterfeiting in the world of properly vintage Scotch... https://www.finespirits.auction/en/news/telling-real-from-fake-12

Cazale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118472453#Comment_118472453

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118472657#Comment_118472657

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118472876#Comment_118472876

Thanks for the kind words lads.

As for the current releases I can't think of any that come close to some of these older whiskeys. I think it comes down to better wood and production processes in modern whiskey.

The Powers 30 year old I tried had leather notes come which from tannins in oak barrels. A lot of these tannins are removed now by seasoning the wood before they are sent to the cooperage. Toasting and charring will mellow out a lot of the remaining tannins.

The Whites 22 had metallic flavours which come from the new make spirit. Good quality casks especially charred bourbon casks remove that over time by allowing the liquid penetrate the wood surface helping to remove impurities.

Redbreast from the 1970s and Bushmills from the 1960s had notes of cats urine. This comes from the fermentation process. Organic compounds called thiols in grains like barley can produce this note due to temperature levels and interaction from yeast during fermentation.

Boann did a Vintage Mashbill series produced from the mashbills of old distilleries in conjunction with Fionnán O’Connor. There are plans to mature those new makes and release them. Might be an interesting one to try when they come out.

https://boanndistillery.ie/product/vintage-mashbills-tasting-pack/