Arlene, Edwin, her replacement and his replacement as leader of the DUP

gmisk

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The DUP's main problem is it's the 21st Century and there's not a whole lot that can be done to change that. Unionism will surely have to split into a modern, liberally-minded, wing and an Old Testament type wing.

That would be my thinking, maybe an expansion in a party like the TUV.

Mad_maxx

breezy1985 wrote: »

"socially conservative" is a very sanitised way of saying homophobic bigots.

I realise it's quite self satisfying for you to do that but I don't see it achieving much else

gmisk

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I realise it's quite self satisfying for you to do that but I don't see it achieving much else

It might not achieve much but it doesn't mean it isn't true I am afraid

breezy1985

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I realise it's quite self satisfying for you to do that but I don't see it achieving much else

It actually achieves quite a lot as recent history has shown. Not calling out homophobia lets parties and people continue to act like bigots and it has been through not being quiet and sometimes "bludgeoning" peoples previously held opinions that led to widespread change in Western Europe

FrancieBrady

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I realise it's quite self satisfying for you to do that but I don't see it achieving much else

If one voter turns away from them as a result, it is worth it. Why are you so protective of them, they aren't behind the wall heaping disdain and criticism on views they don't like.

It is politics.

gmisk

breezy1985 wrote: »

It actually achieves quite a lot as recent history has shown. Not calling out homophobia lets parties and people continue to act like bigots and it has been through not being quiet and sometimes "bludgeoning" peoples previously held opinions that led to widespread change in Western Europe

Totally agree
Below would be a good example imo
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT-free_zone
There were and are serious consequences for LGBT people, doing something like withdrawing EU funding is a real consequence.

Anyway kind of off topic.

I am from Northern Ireland by the way....near Ballymena....so I know what living in a "socially conservative" place can be like.

Junkyard Tom

In many ways Arlene Foster got promoted to chief engineer of a steam train when everyone else had switched to electric. Nigel 'Negotiator of the Year' Dodds should be held responsible for the Brexit mess not Arlene, there was little she could do about demographic changes either.

Mad_maxx

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If one voter turns away from them as a result, it is worth it. Why are you so protective of them, they aren't behind the wall heaping disdain and criticism on views they don't like.

It is politics.

I want a United Ireland and believe unionists are incredibly intransigent when it comes to the protocol etc but i dont believe the DUP or even people who vote DUP must embrace progressive politics and values if they dont wish to , the DUP are not calling for people to be hurt , they are not Nazis , until quite recently, most people were not in favour of gay marriage , in much of Europe its still only a minority who support it , thinking of perfectly civilised nations like Poland.

a lot of unionists are traditional on matters like that , so what ? , the vast majority of muslims in the UK ( and probably in Ireland ) are deeply conservative on these matters yet progressives have no beef with that ?

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

In many ways Arlene Foster got promoted to chief engineer of a steam train when everyone else had switched to electric. Nigel 'Negotiator of the Year' Dodds should be held responsible for the Brexit mess not Arlene, there was little she could do about demographic changes either.

It was patently obvious when Arlene got pushed out to reject Theresa May's deal (shafted May in other words) that she was not the leader. The backroom boys were having none of it and Arlene did the deed. Same with the Irish Language act, without a doubt Arlene and her team negotiated a deal there (read Eamon Mallie on this, he's no Shinner) and agreed it in prnciple, when the backroon boys got sight she was told to reject it.

Necro

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I want a United Ireland and believe unionists are incredibly intransigent when it comes to the protocol etc but i dont believe the DUP or even people who vote DUP must embrace progressive politics and values if they dont wish to , the DUP are not calling for people to be hurt , they are not Nazis , until quite recently, most people were not in favour of gay marriage , in much of Europe its still only a minority who support it , thinking of perfectly civilised nations like Poland.

a lot of unionists are traditional on matters like that , so what ?

Well, for one - it's not the 1950s any more.

FrancieBrady

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I want a United Ireland and believe unionists are incredibly intransigent when it comes to the protocol etc but i dont believe the DUP or even people who vote DUP must embrace progressive politics and values if they dont wish to , the DUP are not calling for people to be hurt , they are not Nazis , until quite recently, most people were not in favour of gay marriage , in much of Europe its still only a minority who support it , thinking of perfectly civilised nations like Poland.

a lot of unionists are traditional on matters like that , so what ?

They cannot use a veto (improperly) to foist their religious views on the people. Simple.

Do what they want in their own lives and churches (same as Roman Catholics) but you have NO right to force it on anyone else.
They are quite entitled to argue their views as are those who oppose them, but, repeat, they are not allowed to block legislation by misuse of a petition of concern.

Fionn1952

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I want a United Ireland and believe unionists are incredibly intransigent when it comes to the protocol etc but i dont believe the DUP or even people who vote DUP must embrace progressive politics and values if they dont wish to , the DUP are not calling for people to be hurt , they are not Nazis , until quite recently, most people were not in favour of gay marriage , in much of Europe its still only a minority who support it , thinking of perfectly civilised nations like Poland.

a lot of unionists are traditional on matters like that , so what ? , the vast majority of muslims in the UK ( and probably in Ireland ) are deeply conservative on these matters yet progressives have no beef with that ?

.....So essentially you're defending the DUP as some weird way of sticking it to, 'the libs/lefties'.

Christ almighty.

Calahonda52

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I want a United Ireland and believe unionists are incredibly intransigent when it comes to the protocol etc but i dont believe the DUP or even people who vote DUP must embrace progressive politics and values if they dont wish to , the DUP are not calling for people to be hurt , they are not Nazis , until quite recently, most people were not in favour of gay marriage , in much of Europe its still only a minority who support it , thinking of perfectly civilised nations like Poland.

a lot of unionists are traditional on matters like that , so what ? , the vast majority of muslims in the UK ( and probably in Ireland ) are deeply conservative on these matters yet progressives have no beef with that ?

Who is making your Kool-Aid?

gmisk

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I want a United Ireland and believe unionists are incredibly intransigent when it comes to the protocol etc but i dont believe the DUP or even people who vote DUP must embrace progressive politics and values if they dont wish to , the DUP are not calling for people to be hurt , they are not Nazis , until quite recently, most people were not in favour of gay marriage , in much of Europe its still only a minority who support it , thinking of perfectly civilised nations like Poland.
a lot of unionists are traditional on matters like that , so what ? , the vast majority of muslims in the UK ( and probably in Ireland ) are deeply conservative on these matters yet progressives have no beef with that ?

It doesn't mean they shouldn't be challenged.
They are not calling for people to be "hurt"....oh whoopee! Talk about a low bar.
Poots has linked LGBT people to paedophiles (plenty of other nasty comments)
Ian Paisley jr has said he is repulsed by gay people.
Oh and the below
"I find this sort of relationship as both immoral, offensive and obnoxious."
I can find a tonne more DUP politicians comments on a similar if not worse vein.

Poland notoriously accepting of gay people yeh...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT-free_zone
There is a link in that to a report on the effects it has had on LGBT people.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/24/world/europe/poland-lgbtq-gay-migration.html

Beechwoodspark

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Who is making your Kool-Aid?

Silly American term

BonnieSituation

MadYaker wrote: »

I love how the DUP have spent the last 4 years working their way into this position and all off a sudden now they're like "oh my god, were f*cked!"

That's how they've always been. Back themselves into a corner and then just agree with some small concession to save face. We got the NIP because of that nonsense in Dec 2017 and we'll be back here again with something new.

And on and on it goes...

Don't feed the crocodiles sure.

breezy1985

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I want a United Ireland and believe unionists are incredibly intransigent when it comes to the protocol etc but i dont believe the DUP or even people who vote DUP must embrace progressive politics and values if they dont wish to , the DUP are not calling for people to be hurt , they are not Nazis , until quite recently, most people were not in favour of gay marriage , in much of Europe its still only a minority who support it , thinking of perfectly civilised nations like Poland.

a lot of unionists are traditional on matters like that , so what ? , the vast majority of muslims in the UK ( and probably in Ireland ) are deeply conservative on these matters yet progressives have no beef with that ?

Things like gay conversion therapy which they refuse to condone does hurt people and is often linked to a high level of suicide.


As you your little anti "woke" whataboutery well I will happily say DUP homophobes are wrong and muslim homophobes are wrong too as are Polish homophobes.


In some countries the male monarch rules and it was once true in Europe too so should Elizabeth step down because other countries are backward towards women and Foster and O'Neill too

Charles Babbage

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They cannot use a veto (improperly) to foist their religious views on the people. Simple.

Do what they want in their own lives and churches (same as Roman Catholics) but you have NO right to force it on anyone else.
They are quite entitled to argue their views as are those who oppose them, but, repeat, they are not allowed to block legislation by misuse of a petition of concern.

They have every right to argue for the regulation of marriage, which is a civil institution with associated legal and taxation implications, or to ague that people should not be allowed eliminate their own children. They go beyond this of course and the petition of concern is a misuse of something designed for another situation entirely.

FrancieBrady

Charles Babbage wrote: »

They have every right to argue for the regulation of marriage, which is a civil institution with associated legal and taxation implications, or to ague that people should not be allowed eliminate their own children. They go beyond this of course and the petition of concern is a misuse of something designed for another situation entirely.

That's what I said. They can argue for what they want until the cows come home. They cannot block change though.

briany

Petitions of Concern are used by both sides, although it appears that Unionist parties have used it a bit more than Nationalist ones. It's definitely been used as blunt instrument too much, but it's part of the GFA, so we are where we are with it.

gmisk

briany wrote: »

Petitions of Concern are used by both sides, although it appears that Unionist parties have used it a bit more than Nationalist ones. It's definitely been used as blunt instrument too much, but it's part of the GFA, so we are where we are with it.

A bit more?
https://www.thedetail.tv/articles/stormont-s-petition-of-concern-used-115-times-in-five-years
A lot more (cover 5 years up to 2016)

BonnieSituation

briany wrote: »

Petitions of Concern are used by both sides, although it appears that Unionist parties have used it a bit more than Nationalist ones. It's definitely been used as blunt instrument too much, but it's part of the GFA, so we are where we are with it.

Let's not "both sides" this one. The POC is used to further the DUP's discriminatory agenda.

It's used to stop the North moving into line with the rest of the island or the rest of the UK wrt marriage equality and abortion. The DUP consistently sought to deny these rights to their constituents because they are bigots.

Thankfully, their intransigence saw Westminster legislate for them, which was rather delicious. Even if it meant Westminster legislating.

BonnieSituation

gmisk wrote: »

A bit more?
https://www.thedetail.tv/articles/stormont-s-petition-of-concern-used-115-times-in-five-years
A lot more (cover 5 years up to 2016)

It was up to 159 as of Oct 2019 as it happens.

gmisk

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It was up to 159 as of Oct 2019 as it happens.

And what proportion is DUP? I would say the majority.
They regularly misuse it as you say.

BonnieSituation

gmisk wrote: »

And what proportion is DUP? I would say the majority.
They regularly misuse it as you say.

Oh easily.

I'm doing a college assignment now and trying not to get dragged down a rabbit hole.
:D:D:D:D:D

Fionn1952

gmisk wrote: »

And what proportion is DUP? I would say the majority.
They regularly misuse it as you say.

The DUP alone are usually responsible for about 3/4 of all PoCs.

dd973

gmisk wrote: »

Arlene Foster to step down as leader of the DUP https://jrnl.ie/5422054

I honestly think the replacements are a lot lot worse....Poots makes Foster look liberal

Good, wheel him in, makes 'em look even more ridiculous. :pac:

Hotblack Desiato

Mad_maxx wrote: »

the DUP are not calling for people to be hurt

But that is where it ends up whenever a group in society is regarded as inferior. Always.

until quite recently, most people were not in favour of gay marriage

Until quite recently, most people didn't know it was a possibility, but when they considered it, they said "why not?"

in much of Europe its still only a minority who support it , thinking of perfectly civilised nations like Poland.

Between the governing party and the Catholic Church, operating hand-in-hand, Poland is sadly turning into a far-right sh*thole. Both of them are doing it to gain power and influence for themselves and they give not a f*ck for who gets hurt (literally) along the way

a lot of unionists are traditional on matters like that , so what ?

Easy to say when you're not the person being publicly vilified for who you are, or discriminated against.

How can it be not OK for unionists to discriminate against catholics/nationalists in the past if it is now OK for unionists to discriminate against women and homosexuals?

secman

The elders in the DUP actually believe they can put the genie back in the bottle !
That can only be good news when you think about it.
Nearly as funny as the pre Brexit call "make Britain great again "

breezy1985

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

But that is where it ends up whenever a group in society is regarded as inferior. Always.



Until quite recently, most people didn't know it was a possibility, but when they considered it, they said "why not?"



Between the governing party and the Catholic Church, operating hand-in-hand, Poland is sadly turning into a far-right sh*thole. Both of them are doing it to gain power and influence for themselves and they give not a f*ck for who gets hurt (literally) along the way



Easy to say when you're not the person being publicly vilified for who you are, or discriminated against.

How can it be not OK for unionists to discriminate against catholics/nationalists in the past if it is now OK for unionists to discriminate against women and homosexuals?

Unionist apparently should be allowed discriminate because they are traditional or whatever and will defend discrimination when they are doing it but are scared sh1****s of being in a united Ireland because they worry they will be a minority


So when UI does happen and they are havin a good cry about republicans setting up "Prod" conversion therapy we can just shrug our shoulders and tell them we are traditionalists

Mad_maxx

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

But that is where it ends up whenever a group in society is regarded as inferior. Always.



Until quite recently, most people didn't know it was a possibility, but when they considered it, they said "why not?"



Between the governing party and the Catholic Church, operating hand-in-hand, Poland is sadly turning into a far-right sh*thole. Both of them are doing it to gain power and influence for themselves and they give not a f*ck for who gets hurt (literally) along the way



Easy to say when you're not the person being publicly vilified for who you are, or discriminated against.

How can it be not OK for unionists to discriminate against catholics/nationalists in the past if it is now OK for unionists to discriminate against women and homosexuals?

how are women discriminated against in Northern Ireland ?

gays were not discriminated in the republic since 1993

not everyone needs to have equal access to the same thing , i am ok with gays marrying ( though i didnt vote in the referendum as it was not important enough to me ) but i strongly oppose gay adoption , i believe a child needs father and mother , to a progressive , that makes me a bigot , i dont care , i dont accept that progressives get to be arbiters of what constitutes fairness etc.

FrancieBrady

Mad_maxx wrote: »

how are women discriminated against in Northern Ireland ?

gays were not discriminated in the republic since 1993

not everyone needs to have equal access to the same thing , i am ok with gays marrying ( though i didnt vote in the referendum as it was not important enough to me ) but i strongly oppose gay adoption , i believe a child needs father and mother , to a progressive , that makes me a bigot , i dont care , i dont accept that progressives get to be arbiters of what constitutes fairness etc.

You can believe the moon is made of cheese if you want, what you cannot do is force me to live as if the moon is made of cheese.

Please try and see the actual issue...who gives a fig what the DUP believe.

BTW: The DUP are seeing to it that women don't have the same rights in NI as they have in the UK and here by delaying the legislation passed by Westminster.

breezy1985

Mad_maxx wrote: »

how are women discriminated against in Northern Ireland ?

gays were not discriminated in the republic since 1993

not everyone needs to have equal access to the same thing , i am ok with gays marrying ( though i didnt vote in the referendum as it was not important enough to me ) but i strongly oppose gay adoption , i believe a child needs father and mother , to a progressive , that makes me a bigot , i dont care , i dont accept that progressives get to be arbiters of what constitutes fairness etc.

So if a mother dies in child birth the child should be taken from the father to save it from a substandard childhood ?

And backward Ireland discriminating against gays in the past does not make it OK for extra backward NI for doing it now. Its wrong regardless of whoever else did or does do it so forget about the ROI or Poland or the Aztec tribes we are talking about the DUP and what they believe.
(No offence to the ancient Aztecs they were probably not as backward as 21st century unionists)

Jizique

gmisk wrote: »

I don't think anyone would suggest they will turn into the social democrats or a more progressive party in the short term.
But if they do go more conservative with someone like Poots it would be a mistake imo, it's an increasingly small pond and other parties are in that area e.g. TUV (they will likely run a few more candidates in next elections).

You won’t find Poots spending his Friday night in Dublin chatting to Ryan Tubridy or attending GAA matches

Mad_maxx

breezy1985 wrote: »

So if a mother dies in child birth the child should be taken from the father to save it from a substandard childhood ?

dont be so ridiculously obtuse

I didn't realise that not hating the gays was still considered progressive.

breezy1985

Mad_maxx wrote: »

dont be so ridiculously obtuse

I am not being obtuse. A child can be raised successfully with 1 father but not 2 according to you so where is the logic in that.


This father and mother crap is a slap in the face to all the perfectly normal well adjusted single parent children out there

breezy1985

Deleted User wrote: »

I didn't realise that not hating the gays was still considered progressive.

Only in Maxx and Sammys traditionalist heads. To everyone else its called normal now not progressive

retalivity

retalivity wrote: »

And then you have Jim Allister and his loopers even further to the right of the DUP.
Mad Ted.

This. Say what you like about Arlene, but I would genuinely be fearful of who could potentially replace her and set the peace process back decades. I was no fan of her, but whats coming up the line could be far far worse

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

This. Say what you like about Arlene, but I would genuinely be fearful of who could potentially replace her and set the peace process back decades. I was no fan of her, but whats coming up the line could be far far worse

The DUP have been trying to wrech the GFA since it was signed and intensified their attempts since 2014 and the calling of the Brexit ref.
It is one of the biggest failures (the attempt) in Irish politics. It has only blown back on them. I wouldn't worry too much. They look set to destroy and implode themselves.

RandomViewer

So Stormont collapses indefinitely in June,

Strumms

Sammy Wilson is a shade shy of 70 years of age.

Looks like he’s about to have a heart attack and has been basically anti restrictions as relates to covid.... so as about as divisive as ever.

jimmycrackcorm

RandomViewer wrote: »

So Stormont collapses indefinitely in June,

I doubt it because the only reason it got back into action is that the DUP saw that Boris and the Tories were going to implement laws that were at odds with their fundamentalist beliefs. Tories have no interest in the Petition of Concern.

If they have no power in Westminister, then they need Stormont to have any say in anything. In particular, they need the assembly if they're going to have any chance to have a go at the 4-year consent principle in the NI protocol.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The DUP have been trying to wrech the GFA since it was signed and intensified their attempts since 2014 and the calling of the Brexit ref.
It is one of the biggest failures (the attempt) in Irish politics. It has only blown back on them. I wouldn't worry too much. They look set to destroy and implode themselves.

They still manage to incite a lot of anarchists and bigots though as the recent riots proved. July 12th is still a relatively big event up there... That sort of stuff wont die overnight if it ever will at all. The wrong person in charge of them could set relations back decades. I dunno, I'm wary enough of what might happen next.

batman75

That was a very quick ending for Foster. She did well to survive the heating scandal of a few years back. I can only assume her position was untenable as she doesn't seem to have wanted to face down those challenging her. Not sure what any new leader can do remove custom checkpoints.
Whoever comes in is in a tricky position. The very core identity of the party is unity with the UK. That seems to be now on a countdown to ending. It would take some shift in core values for them to reposition as a party to represent Unionists in a United Ireland.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Better the devil you know or ding song the witch is dead?

What is the abiding thought from the end of Arlene.

Del.Monte

Jizique wrote: »

gmisk wrote: »

I don't think anyone would suggest they will turn into the social democrats or a more progressive party in the short term.
But if they do go more conservative with someone like Poots it would be a mistake imo, it's an increasingly small pond and other parties are in that area e.g. TUV (they will likely run a few more candidates in next elections).

You won’t find Poots spending his Friday night in Dublin chatting to Ryan Tubridy or attending GAA matches

He's already gone way up in my estimation so.

Mad_maxx

breezy1985 wrote: »

Only in Maxx and Sammys traditionalist heads. To everyone else its called normal now not progressive

I don't hate gay people at all and it's crass of you to debate like that

McMurphy

Del.Monte wrote: »

He's already gone way up in my estimation so.

Aren't you a southerner, born and here (Wexford iirc)? What would your issue be with a unionist leader attending a Gaelic match, or appearing on an Irish television chat show?

Aren't we all aiming for inclusiveness, sharing the island equally and all that jazz?

Apologies if I'm mixing you up with someone else, but if not - it would appear an Irish born unionist doesn't want to see northern brethern mix with the rest of us.

breezy1985

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I don't hate gay people at all and it's crass of you to debate like that

Your slipping now Maxx just resorting to calling me crass or obtuse instead to replying to anything I say.

You are wrong to believe that a man and a woman raise better kids than any other mix or number. Plenty of good and bad people came out of all the different connotations.

The DUP are wrong to discriminate against minority groups and that isn't something that is debatable as a "woke" issue it is a human rights issue and people here are right to challenge the DUPs views