Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

bk

Sure, but that isn’t what this report is suggesting.

This report is suggesting building a cross rail tunnel under Dublin, quad tracking to Clongriffin and then the spur.

Based on their numbers this all would cost over 8 Billion !

I don’t see the justification for spending so much to just get intercity trains from Cork to the Airport!

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898626#Comment_120898626

Ireland will continue to densify around cities and large towns, and with appropriate mass transit infrastructure in place will do so even faster than the current rate.

Posters on this forum often bemoan the State's lack of forward planning - trying to build more rail infrastructure than just Cork & Dublin is exactly that.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898626#Comment_120898626

I agree.

I think the focus should be on urban, suburban, commuting rail.

That's where all the volume is and best chance to persuade people to leave their cars at home.

For example a DART station for Ballyfermot was initially not included in Dart+ SW and seems like a no brainer.

Also a rail line coming out of Galway has no stations and little housing.

Could they 4 track it, build 3 or 4 stations and then build 6 to 8 story apartments along it. Was this included in the plan?

Do the same the Limerick and Cork. I know this is planned for Cork.

So you're building A-rated high density apartments good public transport infrastructure. So you're reducing emissions and preventing sprawl

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898421#Comment_120898421

The Shannon rail idea has been around since Leddin was a child so that side certainly isn't about him.

The Foynes part is about the port needing it to meet standards (not set by Ryan or Leddin)

Drifter100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898731#Comment_120898731

That will never run and cannot. Look at the amount of residences that are tight against the rail alignment in Clontarf / Harmonstown / Raheny / Kilbarrick not to mention the existing Dart / Suburban / Enterprise trains will slow and choke up further. Simply not feasible or a solution that any politician can swallow. If a light rail concept is not deemed adequate then a double tracked spur overground connecting with the existing double tracked Maynooth line at the Blanchardstown roundabout area must the the best option. Must be room on the northern side of the the M50 and the runway at the Airport for a double tracked rail line. Look at the Luton "Dart" that has just opened at Luton Airport. OK its the most expensive 5km of new railway in western Europe at £17BN but this solution is no way as difficult

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120899007#Comment_120899007

There was very limited mention of the rail plans around Limerick before 2021, when at the same time the UL-Corbally bus route, sorry I mean the Northern Distributor Road, was ripped out of LSMATS.

Coincidence I think not so we’ll have to agree to disagree.

I also think the continued arrogant approach to obstructing the Northern Distributor Road in favour of impractical rail services is not going to win many votes in 12 months time

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120899107#Comment_120899107

The train/tram/monorail to Shannon has been around years.

I remember Peter Power had it in his list of fantasy things he would do if Willie O'Dea got him elected.

I agree that his opposition to the NDR is wrong but it's not connected to this rail plan.

CatInABox

I wonder how many houses would definitely need to CPO'd to do the four tracking Connolly to Clongriffin? I don't I've ever seen a list of it.

Beta Ray Bill

Dublin - Clongriffin 4 tracking.... this is going to be a massive project.

The title says New or 4 tracking

I'm assuming they're gonna 4 track the existing railway. I've a funny feeling part of my back garden is going to be CPO'd...

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898873#Comment_120898873

This is an unfinanced plan that has a 27 year timeline where none of the proposals have come anywhere near a CBA. It's not in anyway forward planning.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120899022#Comment_120899022

Dublin AIrport rail to the City via the Maynooth line at Blanchardstown? Crazy idea: the Maynooht line will be running at capacity before long. Do you want to 4-track that? Furthermore it a really roundabout route.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120899233#Comment_120899233

Have you read the report? There are estimated costings per "project" and estimated net gain for the economy.

The report mentions why certain options were considered and others were not, cost-benefit is the #1 factor underpinning these decisions. As a high level review its obviously not forensically costed beyond the 100s of millions level of detail, but to say none of it has seen a CBA is false.

Read the report in full, whats posted on thread here is morsels of the full thing.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120899238#Comment_120899238

This is the fundamental catch.

Southern services to Dublin terminate at Heuston, which has no through-running and poor connection to commuter services. You can take the Southern Services around the outside of the city between Cellbridge and Dunboyne and on towards the airport, but you'll inconvenience most of the current passengers by doing so.

There's a fundamental conflict between the needs of national rail and commuter rail, and this document doesn't "work" because commuter rail is out of scope. A big piece of the picture is missing.

bk

I’ve read the report in full and I hate to say it, but the CBA’s are actually pretty bad!

On their own, most of the projects have a CBA ratio less than 1. Only by combining them all into one big package, could then come up with a CBA ratio of 1. Which is only ok, really not great.

But the real problem is that we all know this entire package won’t be delivered as one project like that. That instead many of the projects will have to be re-examined individually and with a CBA less then 1, most won’t pass muster.

Hibernicis

@hans aus dtschl

You are absolutely correct. Running through trains from say Cork to Dublin Airport sounds great, but it's nonsense in practice and would cause IIR immense operational problems. Lets look at it:

First option; a current 7 carriage Mark IV trainset that runs from Cork to Heuston decants its Heuston passengers, and the reverses out of Heuston and takes whatever route is now available to to get to Dublin airport. You now have a very expensive mainline trainset playing Choo Choo train around Dublin's busy core network, to take maybe 20, 30, 40 passengers to Dublin Airport. And of course it has to travel back again. So this scarce and expensive resource wastes 2 hours and significantly reduces the availability of trainsets for mainline Cork-Dublin use.

The alternative is to start running little trains from Cork direct to Dublin Airport, bypassing Heuston. So IIR is now going into direct competition with the Aircoaches of this world. And I think we all know exactly how that would work out. And the taxpayers of this country are spending billions to facilitate it.

A metro connection from central Dublin to the Airport makes a lot of sense. A coach from Heuston to the Airport makes sense. Integrated solutions from various points around Dublin to the Airport make sense. Dragging intercity trains along a spur to Collinstown is daft.

Another idea that should have been left on a beermat in the pub. And another serious knock to the credibility of this report.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898885#Comment_120898885

The focus is on urban projects though this is a sci-fi document, Bus Connects and DART+ are actually months away from breaking ground, provided that ABP ceases creating a roadblock for them

Deedsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898612#Comment_120898612

I am from Nenagh, I used to work there. I know many others who do work there. No one is doing that journey on a train five days a week but work patterns have changed. People work hybrid models at home and in the office. And if it could save families needing a second car you better believe people would take that option if trains were reliable and frequent.

But you conveniently excluded the other example I mentioned of Ennis and its surrounds. Wouldnt that be a far more likely commute for people by train or even from Colbert, Moyross, Cratloe, Bunratty, Sixmilebridge. And also for people from Shannon and freight from the area to other locations throughout the region and beyond.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120899412#Comment_120899412

For cutting all intercity travel times by 30%+ I'd be more than happy with a CBA of 1:1.

Realistically, what else do you spend the money on nationally? Upgrading the M7/M8 to autobahn status?

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120899615#Comment_120899615

Urban/commuter rail is not in scope of this document.

Hibernicis

@Deedsie

...and freight from the area to other locations throughout the region and beyond.

It's always interesting when the freight thing gets thrown in at the end of a post. Almost always a sign of a very weak argument. Rail freight has almost reached zero in this country, for many reasons, most of them pretty logical. Reversing this and achieving a significant shift from road freight to rail freight such that a you'd get to 30% 40% or 50% would be a mammoth task, requiring investment that would make the Arup guesstimates in the current review look cheap. The cost of rail infrastructure (tracks, trains, etc) would be a small part of what's required as you would rebuild transport and logistics across the island from the ground up - warehouses, last mile, logistics systems and integration - the cost would be eye-watering as you would be replacing/replicating a hundred or more years of road infrastructure, distribution infrastructure, etc etc.

But let's leave all that aside for a minute. Can you give me 5 practical real world examples of rail freight that would work, practically and economically, in Counties Limerick and Clare. You can throw in Tipp as well if you think it helps your argument.

Hibernicis

@timmyntc

For cutting all intercity travel times by 30%+ I'd be more than happy with a CBA of 1:1.

I think we would all be happy with this one - and I don't see anybody arguing it. But that's not when the problem is, it's all the other nonsense that got lumped in.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120899213#Comment_120899213

Once again, separately Iarnród Éireann have only just secured EU funding to examine the feasibility of four tracking the Northern Line

That study will answer that question.

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898662#Comment_120898662

I'm speaking rhetorically, not about you personally.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120899683#Comment_120899683

The 200km/h project on it's own get a ratio of only 0.9. While 300km/h got a ratio of 0.5

It is only the entire 36 billion project that get a ratio of 1:1, but we all know that won't happen.

As for what I'd spend it on? Commuter and mass transit. Rail into and around our cities. That is where we would get the most benefit, that is how we take the maximum numbers of cars off our roads.

I know that isn't the focus of this report and not what you asked, but this is why I feel this report looks so poor. I feel like we needed a rail review that realistically covered all rail services (including light rail, Metro and commuter rail).

Within the scope of this project, these are the major parts I would do:

• 200km/h intercity, despite having a CBA of just 0.9, I'd still do it.
• Increased frequency to all our cities.
• Double and quad tracking outside of Dublin City. Double tracking into Galway, Limerick, etc. No brainers to help their commuter services. I'd want more detail and clarity about Quad tracking the Northern line.
• De-carbonising, though I think we need to take a serious look at Hydorgen and battery trains versus overhead wires. The cost of overhead wires looks horribly expensive, with very little benefit in terms of new or improved services, might be a hard sell.
• Train to Navan.

I'm sure there are more good parts, but these jump out at me.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120899861#Comment_120899861

Battery is not feasible for 200kmh at intercity distances, electric is only option really.

I agree a full rail review at all levels would be great, but would also be so massive in scope itd never get done. You can put together entire reviews just for GDA, another for Cork, then one combined for LMK/GWY/WAT. That on top of all the national network stuff would never see the light of day, it would be too much.

Other than the east west tunnel madness - is there that much conflict in whats proposed vs what would be in urban rail scope?

Economics101

• BK, you said: "De-carbonising, though I think we need to take a serious look at Hydrogen and battery trains versus overhead wires. The cost of overhead wires looks horribly expensive, with very little benefit in terms of new or improved services, might be a hard sell."

Yes, the catenary and electrical substations etc are expensive. But you reap a big benefit in energy efficiency, operation costs, the reliability of a proven technology, reliability and simplicity relative to hybrids.

Also many electrification projects include large sums for track rationalisation, which is not necessarily specific to electrification. As for rolling stock, is existing stock is life expired, its probably cheaper to replace it with electric as opposed to hybrid.

bk

"Battery is not feasible for 200kmh at intercity distances, electric is only option really."

Wrong, hydrogen powered trains are also an option and seem to be maturing quickly.

Look at Caltrains in California, they have recently placed a big order for 25 hydrogen powered intercity trains. First will enter service next year, they plan on completing the full transition by 2035. They have 800km range between refuels.

"Other than the east west tunnel madness - is there that much conflict in whats proposed vs what would be in urban rail scope?"

Well that madness is the largest part of this plan.

But really the question would be would it be better to spend this amount of money on this package of projects or spending the same on extra Metro and commuter rail projects?

Hibernicis

@bk

• 200km/h intercity, despite having a CBA of just 0.9, I'd still do it.
• Increased frequency to all our cities.
• Double and quad tracking outside of Dublin City. Double tracking into Galway, Limerick, etc. No brainers to help their commuter services. I'd want more detail and clarity about Quad tracking the Northern line.
• De-carbonising, though I think we need to take a serious look at Hydorgen and battery trains versus overhead wires. The cost of overhead wires looks horribly expensive, with very little benefit in terms of new or improved services, might be a hard sell.
• Train to Navan.

That list is a very good start. For the sake of completeness I’d round it out with the out of scope stuff because splitting out commuter in such a small integrated system makes no sense, so DART+, Cork Commuter, Cork-Limerick improvements per the M20 report but not the direct route. And I’d spend the rest of the money further improving connectivity in central/greater Dublin (Metro/Luas expansion etc) and sorting out or replacing Conolly/Docklands/Spencer Dock properly for the long term. And separately, I’d look for tactical opportunities like other low hanging fruit and quick return mini-projects rather than mega projects and big new builds. 

bk

"Yes, the catenary and electrical substations etc are expensive. But you reap a big benefit in energy efficiency, operation costs, the reliability of a proven technology, reliability and simplicity relative to hybrids."

But would the operating savings really add up to the multiple billions that electrification would require?

I believe that generally speaking you need rail lines that are much busier then ours to justify the cost of electrification.

Hydrogen powered intercity trains seem to be tkaing the rail market by storm at the moment. Lots of countries looking into using it or have already placed orders. I'd like to see a full break down and CBA of Hydrogen powered trains versus electrification.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900001#Comment_120900001

Where are there actual hydrogen powered trains in use? Announcements alone doesn't mean something is taking the market by storm.