Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120902912#Comment_120902912

No it isn't it is a symptom of a terrible planning system, parish pump politics and corruption too.

And to be clear I'm not talking about Intercity lines or proper commuter lines, but rather truly rural lines in the middle of nowhere.

A radical plan would be planning and building more commuter towns outside our cities and connecting them directly to the cities with high quality frequent services.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120902828#Comment_120902828

It is chicken and egg though? Like folk won't live in non rural areas if there isn't decent appeal when it comes to services? This is the point of the ARR, to build out a rail network at (relatively) low cost, to increase the value to living in urban areas. We can't right the wrongs of ribbon development of the past, what we can do is focus on prioritising amenities for the larger towns so that they can attract growth.

There is no need to be aggressive like. We all want the same thing, which is moving away from the road dominated discourse and towards urbanising rural ireland. However towns don't just magically urbanise on their own, they need incentives such as mass transit. If the coach is beating the train by 30 minutes then we should be bringing those journey times down with alignment improvements and partial electification. Hell given the short distance between the two cities, you could have Battery electric trains running a relatively frequent service between the two cities.

If we want any regional development at all, we need to be planning in the long term. Its crazy how we hold these rail lines to such a higher standard compared to their road alternatives. Look at the Castlebar/Westport DC, costing the state 300m. Does it offer triple the benefit than Limerick/Galway?

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120902939#Comment_120902939

The rail review is flawed because it doesn't propose entirely new commuter towns? Jesus Christ there's out of scope and then there's this. There was no remit to go looking anywhere near that, and if they did im sure you would be dismissing it as mad fairy stuff too.

New commuter towns could well be created on any one of the upgraded services contained in the AIRR. But it is not the job of the AIRR to fix settlement patterns or provide this radical overhaul you seem to crave.

Honestly, what else could the review say that would be radical change enough for you?

marno21

A few things about one off houses.

1. Irish people (from rural Ireland mainly) like to live in one off houses. They have drawbacks, but people still build them in droves so they do have quite the attraction. Regardless, banning one off houses won't make any difference, as there's already so many of them built that unless you actually turned into a totalitarian state and moved people forcibly into villages and towns that there is always going to be a one off house factor to consider.
2. One off houses are one of the few areas where people are actually getting new homes built for themselves, relative to other developments especially.

cgcsb

What in the 1970s is going on in this thread? Build new commuter towns lol. Commuter towns are hell. The entire population of Ireland could comfortably live inside the M50 with ample parks, spacious homes and tiny commutes, let's not get carried away, there are no mega cities here and there is no urban land shortage. There are even existing towns that are almost entirely vacant.

bk

Delete

marno21

There's a more fundamental issue about this rail report that isn't getting near enough attention. Especially from the complete head the balls that call themselves Green Party representatives. This whole "Green Party approach to saving the world" is starting to resemble religious dogma and people who question it using facts (Leo Varadkar) have attack dogs set on them.

There are 2 types of rail transport we can look at here

1. Commuting/mass transit in cities
2. Inter urban railway journeys

Item 1 isn't really the focus of this report, but it should be the focus of most rail investment in the country. It would take lots of passengers, out of cars and open up new opportunities for transit led development in the cities. It would reduce congestion, and make the cities flow better. It's the focus of the GDA Transport Strategy, CMATS etc. For this to work optimally, you need sufficient density along the route, and at the end too, and connections for last mile journeys at either end. You also need a sufficient net passenger volume to enable services run so frequently as to make them attractive. Dublin and Cork are prime candidates for this, and the way this report crosses over with commuter rail is in moving intercity services away from Drogheda-Clongriffin, Maynooth-Connolly into Heuston instead, and looking at addressing cross city connectivity. The back bones of mass transit in Dublin and Cork remain MetroLink, DART+, Cork Metro Rail, Cork Luas, and other Luas lines in Cork and Dublin.

Item 2 is the primary focus of this report. For intercity rail to be effective, you need competitive journey times with road but also you need to address last mile journey times. For example, with the exception of the Waterford-LJ, Limerick-Ballybrophy, Limerick-Galway snail rail, every other intercity route goes to Dublin. This makes sense due to the volume of passenger trips ending/beginning in Dublin and the ability to get around Dublin reasonably well from Heuston/Connolly with Luas/Bus etc. Intercity services to the other cities would fall down in this regard due to the lack of last mile potential in the other cities. Cork especially needs boosting in this regard because there is potential there for Kent-CUH/the colleges/airport etc. Lines such as Rosslare-Waterford, Claremorris-Athenry, will fall down in this regard because onward journey potential from wherever people's railway journey terminates is difficult. Interurban rail should primarily focus on getting as many trips to at least Dublin if not Dublin and Cork onto rail where possible but Dublin especially.

Item 1 on that list will really help with decarbonisation esepcially for regular commuters taking lots of passenger journeys off the roads. Someone working a full time job in Dublin who switches from car to rail would cut out 450-500 car journeys per year. That's a massive difference. Real investment in rail based solutions for commuting will take needless car journeys off the road in their thousands

What I don't understand is how Item 2 on the list, e.g. the entire focus of this report contributes anything to decarbonisation save for better journey times on established routes to Dublin, which doesn't require 36bn in spending. How is tonnes upon tonnes of steel and concrete being put down between Claremorris and Athenry, small population centres with no road congestion in the area and uncompetitive journey times vs the bus, do anything for emissions? I hate to keep referring to it, but how does WRC Phase 1 reduce emissions? People on free travel passes getting the train instead of the bus? Mostly empty carriages on weekdays in winter with the heating on to transport a few people? How will reopening Rosslare-Waterford, with no meaningful population centres anywhere along the line decarbonise anything? Who actually would use this line? I can foresee lots of "Christ isn't it great we're getting the train back" around the country which will become "Ah sure that train doesn't go at the time I want to/I'd have to get a lift to the station/it's much slower than driving/it's too expensive/how will I get to where I want to go at the other end" when it reopens.

As I said, the way Greens are going about "saving the planet" is starting to appear religious. And a core part of that belief is seething hatred of the private car, to the point where trains are the solution to everything even when it doesn't make sense. And it's quite difficult to run a country when the entire transport policy is summed up as "trains good cars bad'.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903164#Comment_120903164

If you think that the story of Irish Transport for the past 40 years is "Trains good, cars bad" I have a small collection of bridges to sell you.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903175#Comment_120903175

I said nothing about the last 40 years. I said now.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903180#Comment_120903180

Right then I'll reply more seriously. Your core issue is that this report does not cover Commuter rail, which is fair, but was never within scope of this report. The rail review was only ever meant to look at All Ireland Rail Transit, and making an attempt to structure regional development in a sensible way. In addition to this, the majority of the 30bn in cash devoted to this project is for speed improvements on existing Intercity lines, the point being to make rail the obvious decision vs. car. Under this plan, nearly all Intercity lines (apart from Sligo) would be 30 mins or more faster than their driving counterparts.

The largest amount of money being spent on new rail infra is in the north, and most of these new projects are justified (except probably Portadown-Mullingar) but overall, at a cost of 1.3bn per year over the next 30 years, it seems like the bare minimum we can be doing for sustainable regional development?

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903154#Comment_120903154

100% this. People working in Dublin having to live in Mullingar/Port Laoise due to lack of availability/cost further in. A strong reason for much more dense housing along DART/Metro lines rather than a need for new towns.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903223#Comment_120903223

Again.

1. If we have 1.3bn per year to spend it should mostly go on commuter rail in the cities first and foremost, if decarbonization is the goal
2. This project as you say is mainly about regional connectivity/journey times. It won't lead to significant decarbonisation.
3. Balanced regional development is welcome but there are complimentary road developments that are also needed.

To sum up as I said in my post, the argument of the last 2 days that unless we implement this plan Europe is going to burn is utter tripe and it should be called out as such. And investment for decarbonisation should be focused on commuter rail rather than faster journey times to large towns.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903247#Comment_120903247

We're doing both though? Like again, commuter rail was never part of the report. Dart+ Metrolink and Cork Commuter Rail are going to happen, independent of whether or not this goes ahead. This is for rail for everywhere outside Dublin, to reduce journey times and decarbonise. Like right now 80% of Irish Rails emissions are coming from our Diesel Locos, Locos which we will not be able to buy more of for the main IC lines. This report reflects that with not only meaning that we get cheaper, longer life rolling stock, but faster journey times and cheaper running costs.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903264#Comment_120903264

Are we though?

To be clear, this is just a report, the government haven't signed off on any of it. I'm not aware of any of the projects getting green lit for investment. Given the comments from the Taoiseach yesterday, I suspect much of it won't

Don't get me wrong, I'm certain some of it will happen. Hopefully the Intercity improvements, etc. But I suspect a lot of it won't specially not in 25 years indicated.

Also I'm somewhat ambivalent about the electrification of the intercity network. I do get why, but it will cost billions, while in reality coming with little return in actual improvements to passenger services or more people using the service. I do get the de-carbonisation, but I do wonder if you were to instead spend the same money for instance on grants to insulate their house, would it have a greater GHE reduction. Not all that many people actually travel intercity every day, relatively speaking. Electrifying commuter rail (and DART+) would have a bigger impact. Having said that, I do suspect it will happen regardless.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903223#Comment_120903223

c.80 minutes from Cork to Waterford via Limerick Junction is pretty fantastical stuff.

ArcadiaJunction

I have to admit something: when I first saw the Mullingar to Cavan/NI proposal I laughed. But the more I think about it, I am coming around to the idea. If that and the Athlone to Mullingar line was reopened it would be a hell of a useful connecting line for the whole island. It ends the need to go to Dublin for just about everything and 90% of the old trackbed is there and ready to go.

All the decades of the Western Rail Corridor nonsense and right in front of us was the real corridor all along. Galway-Athlone-Mullingar-Portadown

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120901160#Comment_120901160

There is no historic alignment left! I know the route very well and there is very little remaining which is reusable for a modern railway. It has been built over in all of the towns and what little remained is/will soon be greenway. The recent N55 alignment at Mullahoran is on the old rail line. It will require an entire rebuild from scratch and large chunks of that will have to be away from the historic alignment. For all intents and purposes it would be an entirely new build requiring major engineering works. There must be 100 road crossings on the route, very few if any were originally grade separated so nothing to piggyback on.

The report can say what it likes, a desktop cost estimate means nothing if it doesn't reflect the reality on the ground.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903317#Comment_120903317

2 hours for Cork to Galway is even more fantastical. Limerick to Galway takes 2 hours as it is and they're not planning on rerouting or double tracking the line.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903327#Comment_120903327

That existing alignments have been built on in places is the case for almost every town that ever had a disused rail line. However for significant parts that is not the case, and are still a valid routing.

A large chunk of the Cavan line passed by tiny villages and empty countryside, and that is still the case today. The rail alignment isnt that close to major roads in the area either so ribbon development along main roads is not as big an issue either.

I too know the route very well, and the southern half is nowhere near as problematic as you suggest.

Around clones to Monaghan town is another story as its unclear if they still intend to cross to newtownbutler or run new rail from clones to Monaghan.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903601#Comment_120903601

They're doubletracking Athenry Galway under this plan and building more passing loops along Limerick Galway I think? Would certainly bring it a lot closer to the 2hr mark, though a direct Cork/Limerick line would be preferable

Geuze

Can I ask a question.

Before this report was published, am I correct in saying that the following projects are underway anyway, by which I mean design has started, and the stages to submitting a RO are underway?

(1) the four DART+ projects

(2) doubling to Midleton

(3) doubling LJ to Limerick

(4) Foynes line

(5) passing loop 1km at Oranmore

(6) Cork line, elimination of some LC

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903312#Comment_120903312

Given that new Diesel Locos will need to be bought with a 40 year life, I don't want to imagine what the running costs of such vehicles will be in 2060, even if we didn't care particularly about the GHG emissions.

Setting that aside, it wouldn't be possible to place such an order anyway, it wouldn't be politically possible on an EU level, nor would we be able to get the rolling stock at a good rate since most new rolling stock are electric based. If we want to keep the Intercity lines open, we need to electrify, if anything its good that the emissions guidelines are forcing our hand to an extent because it forces the country to do the one thing it hates doing. Forward planning.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903609#Comment_120903609

When you say "the southern half", assume you are referring to the final 20km or so in county Longford, so really the final one fifth. Immediately north of that there is a National Secondary road on a section of the old rail alignment, it doesn't get much more problematic than that.

In Cavan town there are housing estates built on the alignment. The rest of the alignment is a ditch at best and has been overgrown for 50 years. It's the same as building an entirely new line, the state doesn't even own the old alignment.

You defended the cost estimate saying "Its not a new alignment, and would not require massive engineering works" but now when it suits you, you say that the route is unclear.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903960#Comment_120903960

1. 2 of these are with ABP (Kildare line and Maynooth line)
2. With ABP
3. Not advanced atm
4. Under construction
5. Not sure with that one
6. Addressing 7 level crossings between Mallow and Limerick Jn has been with ABP since May 2021

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903996#Comment_120903996

"with ABP since May 2021"

Jesus Wept.

If it takes over two years for ABP to give a decision on dealing with seven LC, nevermind the time to do the actual work of replacing them, sure we may as well give up.........................🙄😪

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120904019#Comment_120904019

Yeah that particular case sticks out for me personally as being demented in the time it’s taking. It’s a simple job ffs.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120904019#Comment_120904019

ABP should be giving these rail projects a very quick decision. In many cases such as doubling Limerick Jcn to Limerick, its a matter of restoring what was once a double track railway. Do masts for the overhead require planning permission if they are on railway property? Why? Does a new signal post require planning permission? Did the original DART electrification require planning permission? If so, how long did the process take? If no, why does electrification require planning permission now?

Some guy in Dublin was denied permission by ABP to put a container for wheelie bins in his fron garden, against the ABP Inspector's reccommendation. Why? Quite a large number of ABP decisions appear to be against the reccommendations of their own inspectors. Why? Such contrarian deciaions should be rare, and if they are frequent I smell either incompetence or corruption.

At times I think the planners have too much power, and at other times they appear to be powerless (or act that way). What the often lack is a good dose of common sense.

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120902550#Comment_120902550

I agree that this plan is a start

You'd be hard pressed to find a more inaccurate statement. PLAN ?? Put very very simply, and worth repeating - This is not a plan. This is not a plan. This is not a plan. It's not even a menu of realistic options. Or a prioritised pick list. Or a blueprint. It's a jumble of ideas, floating freely and totally detached from reality. It's honestly the last thing we needed if we are to make progress. It's "a discussion document". Beloved of politicians, nothing ruled out, everything on the table. Something for everyone, and nobody alienated. Great stuff. Absolutely not what we needed.

What we needed, after a couple of years of submissions, stakeholder interviews, expert input, international benchmarking etc etc was a well structured document that set out a few options, say:

1. Do Little - the minimum needed to maintain the current system and get some "low-hanging fruit" benefits without rocking the boat or breaking the bank
2. The Middle Ground - Tactical improvements, leveraging and sweating what we have, and a few key projects with a big tangible benefit (Be it financial, social or environmental or a mix of the three)
3. The Grand Big Bold Brave option - Setting out a strategy that takes a transformative approach in terms of modal shift, quality of life benefits, etc and maps out a course of action for the next 30 years

Instead it's like a menu in an Irish Asian Street Food joint, the unhealthy, the unappetising, the unknown all flung in together. It jumbles the good stuff, the bad stuff and the utterly nonsensical in one cauldron. And of course, as many of us suspected from the outset, excluding commuter from the review makes it even worse, as it criss crosses and dabbles with commuter without aiding or leveraging its case. And actually conflicts with it in places.

My biggest fear is that this will frighten the politicians in to making a a few quick decisions to be seen to do something. Here's what I predict

• A few low budget (and low value) choices, innocuous stuff to keep the rural back benchers happy (WRC type stuff)
• A cross border project, well because its the right thing to do etc etc
• A review body, to review the review in respect of the big projects, and kick decisions two years down the road, three to four years if this also is a cross border piece of work
• IIR left to their own devices to muddle onto do the best they can with no additional resources
• Rome continuing to burn

This is NOT a plan. How could it be ? To paraphrase Varadker's speechwriter, spend €36 billion to get freight from 1% to 10% and passengers 3% to 6%. If I approached my board colleagues for funding approval with numbers like that, at best I'd be laughed out of the room, and more likely I'd be thrown out with my balls handed to me on a plate.

I'm genuinely disappointed by this outcome. I expected far better from Arup. We have a once off opportunity to plan for the future. There is still enough of the legacy system in place to act as a viable platform to build on. In relative terms, Budget/Finance is not a constraint. We have imperatives like climate change, housing shortages and the related commuting nightmare all staring us in the face. We have some experience of successful infrastructure delivery in recent times. We are out from under the yoke of colonial inferiority. We have a bit of confidence and pride in ourselves. The context and the environment were never more favourable to doing something big and bold. And instead of a blueprint for the future, we end up with something that reads like that swamp of nonsense that is the WRC thread.

It's very depressing, it really is.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903247#Comment_120903247

I probably didn't emphasize this enough earlier but:

If we have 1.3bn per year to spend it should mostly go on commuter rail in the cities first and foremost, if decarbonization is the goal

This project as you say is mainly about regional connectivity/journey times. It won't lead to significant decarbonisation.

From Irish Rail's perspective, the main carbon emitters are the intercity lines. Sligo-Dublin/Galway-Dublin/Cork-Dublin and the rest are all Diesel Electric. Current rolling stock will have to be replaced in the next 10/15 years. By then we will be facing a choice, do we abandon most of the intercity lines and mothball them, or do we want to retain them. If we want to retain, we electrify, and if we electrify we get the significant time savings we want. We get the frequencies bonuses we want, and these routes increasingly become more desirable for current motorists to swap out into trains. Irish Rail want to go net 0 by 2050, they're not going to get there unless we electrify or scrap like 95% of the network.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120904088#Comment_120904088

What a load of waffle. I don't think that you even read the document going by this.