Relaxation of Restrictions, Part X *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

Silentcorner

Silentcorner wrote: »

Good man Raind....

So the death rate isn't even considered in the definition of a pandemic...what about seriousness of illnesses or infection?

How do they discern between a mild pandemic and a severe one? Do they bother...we just lock down for any pandemic is it?

A pandemic is a pandemic. Whether it’s haemorrhaging fever with ifr of 99% or a mild rash. The reaction is based on the potential impact to life and health not because it’s declared a pandemic.

gozunda

darconio wrote: »

That's relatively old, it's a study published in July 2020, but regardless, do we want to keep ignoring the following sentence or do we want to acknowledge the fact that the number of reported deaths by covid is not real?

"As of mid April, in line with World Health Organization (WHO) guidance, death reporting was extended to include deaths both in patients with probable COVID-19 in addition to deaths among confirmed cases.
By definition, such deaths must result from a clinically compatible illness, in a probable or confirmed COVID-19 case, unless there is a clear alternative cause of death that cannot be related to COVID-19 (for example, trauma)."

The above are WHO guidelines used by HIQA for its study of RIP death notices are out of date by about a year.

See the ECDC covid guidelines linked to on the HPSC website I detailed and explanation.

https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/epidemiologyfrequentlyaskedquestions/

The definitions used are explained here and include Confirmed case, Probable case, Possible case etc

https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/casedefinitions/covid-19interimcasedefinitionforireland/


Under the ECDC guidelines- It remains what is detailed are laboratory confirmed (tested positive) deaths and non laboratory confirmed deaths as alternatively determined by doctors etc and relevant criteria for each category.

arccosh

Silentcorner wrote: »

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/066ce-ireland-placed-on-full-level-5-restrictions-of-the-plan-for-living-with-covid-19/

loads for you to do according to that

Silentcorner

Deleted User wrote: »

This is what happens when you “see a guy talking” rather than listen to reality. The number of deaths does not and never has defined a pandemic

Deleted User wrote: »

A pandemic is a pandemic. Whether it’s haemorrhaging fever with ifr of 99% or a mild rash. The reaction is based on the potential impact to life and health not because it’s declared a pandemic.

You're the gift that keeps on giving...never change Raind....never change!

Faugheen

There are so many people here who post in bad faith.

Silentcorner

Silentcorner wrote: »

You're the gift that keeps on giving...never change Raind....never change!

Reading comprehension as always is a challenge I see

Silentcorner

Faugheen wrote: »

There are so many people here who don't post the way I want them to.

Fixed that there for you!!

Silentcorner

Deleted User wrote: »

Reading comprehension as always is a challenge I see

No I got you...

A Pandemic is not concerned with death rates, it's the rate of impact on life...death would be a fairly significant impact on life one would have thought!!!

Silentcorner

Silentcorner wrote: »

No I got you...

A Pandemic is not concerned with death rates, it's the rate of impact on life...death would be a fairly significant impact on life one would have thought!!!

I shall try a be a bit slower

A declaration of a pandemic is based on the spread of an infectious agent and not on its severity

The reaction to an infectious agent is based on its severity and not on the fact that it’s been declared a pandemic. An Ebola outbreak in west Africa for example requires extreme reactions but it’s not a pandemic

Two separate things. Do you need smaller words?

Silentcorner

Deleted User wrote: »

I shall try a be a bit slower

A declaration pandemic is based on the spread of an infectious agent and not on its severity

The reaction to an infectious agent is based on its severity and not on the fact that it’s been declared a pandemic. An Ebola outbreak in west Africa for example requires extreme reactions but it’s not a pandemic

Two separate things. Do you need smaller words?

Jesus Raind...you're not the quickest as it is....

I understand the point you are making...I also understand my own ignorance of the term....I was merely pointing out that it had been alleged the WHO changed the definition of the term.

I understand there are a few elements as in the geographical spread, the death rate would be one you'd imagine would indicate the severity of it, would we have locked down our country if we know this pandemic had a death rate of about 0.3 - 0.5%....I am not sure the vast public would have signed up to that!

shtpEdthePlum

Silentcorner wrote: »

No I got you...

A Pandemic is not concerned with death rates, it's the rate of impact on life...death would be a fairly significant impact on life one would have thought!!!

The definition of pandemic is actually based on the ability of a disease to spread throughout the world.

PintOfView

shtpEdthePlum wrote: »

The definition of pandemic is actually based on the ability of a disease to spread throughout the world.

From wikipedia
"A pandemic (from Greek πᾶν, pan, "all" and δῆμος, demos, "local people" the 'crowd')
is an epidemic of an infectious disease that has spread across a large region,
for instance multiple continents or worldwide,
affecting a substantial number of people. "

Silentcorner

shtpEdthePlum wrote: »

The definition of pandemic is actually based on the ability of a disease to spread throughout the world.

So I'm told...I do know the British have been planning for a Pandemic with a much higher death rate than Covid for over 10 years...so their experts clearly didn't get the memo!

gozunda

normanoffside wrote: »

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1384185685226057743

You can watch it yourself here from 33-36 minutes

'We've been very clear since day 1 that we've reported all deaths because of or with Covid 19"

Later When asked about people with terminal illness and a short potential life span who just happened to die with covid he says they do make up a proportion of our (covid) deaths.

hahaha hahaha.

That is not even within in an asses roar of what you claimed. :pac:

Viz.

normanoffside wrote: »

Hi Gozunda, Dr Glynn was just asked about this and has confirmed that he reports all deaths with Covid19 whether or not it is the cause of or even a factor in the death.

So he says they report all covid related deaths - - that does not mean that they assign covid as a cause of death to anything and everything as you have suggested above

Oh and of the covid deaths reported - a proportion have underlying conditions. Well there's a surprise. I didn't know that...

shtpEdthePlum

PintOfView wrote: »

From wikipedia
"A pandemic (from Greek πᾶν, pan, "all" and δῆμος, demos, "local people" the 'crowd')
is an epidemic of an infectious disease that has spread across a large region,
for instance multiple continents or worldwide,
affecting a substantial number of people. "

That's what i said.

charlie14

Silentcorner wrote: »

Jesus Raind...you're not the quickest as it is....

I understand the point you are making...I also understand my own ignorance of the term....I was merely pointing out that it had been alleged the WHO changed the definition of the term.

I understand there are a few elements as in the geographical spread, the death rate would be one you'd imagine would indicate the severity of it, would we have locked down our country if we know this pandemic had a death rate of about 0.3 - 0.5%....I am not sure the vast public would have signed up to that!

We know that presently the CFR is 2.14% not 0,3 -0.5% and that is for all age groups. Stands to reason that the percentage for the elderly and those with underlying condition will be higher again.

gozunda

ypres5 wrote: »

You do realize you're talking to the guy who framed northern ireland to be some dystopian hellhole where one couldn't step outside without being mauled by a gang of roaming loyalists just last week?

Ah even more stuff never said by anyone. This is a very good game guys. Keep it lit :pac:

Meanwhile Dublin is Mad Max Territory. Oh the irony ...

Seweryn

charlie14 wrote: »

From that I take it you have an explanation for all the high E.U. excess monthly deaths that coincide with the various Covid waves.
If those excess deaths are not due to Covid, then what are they due too ?

The explanation is simple, but there are no official figures supporting the fact.

Right at the start, it was obvious that the lockdowns and closures of hospital departments would kill far more people than the over-promoted virus. And that is exactly what has happened.

Hospital departments were shut and hospital staff with not enough to do performed funny dances which were put onto the internet to entertain the patients who were being denied medical treatment. Politicians claimed that hospitals were under huge pressure, but the figures showed that wards and intensive care units were emptier than usual.

So called cure (the lockdown policies and the refusal to treat other patients to "protect" them from infection) kills far more people than the disease. But no, you will not find it in official figures. Because who is going to admit and explain this? Corrupted politicians or lying doctors?

ypres5

gozunda wrote: »

Ah even more stuff never said by anyone. This is a very good game guys. Keep it lit :pac:

So all the posts about irish people and southern reg cars being attacked were a group hallucination on the part of the people here? Considering I'm not the first person to reference them.

Silentcorner

charlie14 wrote: »

We know that presently the CFR is 2.14% not 0,3 -0.5% and that is for all age groups. Stands to reason that the percentage for the elderly and those with underlying condition will be higher again.

The CFR should only be used if we have an accurate number on the number of people who have been infected...we have no idea, we have a number of confirmed cases...that includes a large amount of people who have not shown a single symptom.

The figures we do have do not present us with what could be described as a deadly virus....thankfully.

I do note that it can be a very serious infection for many, who don't need hospital treatment...I do believe in the need for some restrictions.

JRant

charlie14 wrote: »

We know that presently the CFR is 2.14% not 0,3 -0.5% and that is for all age groups. Stands to reason that the percentage for the elderly and those with underlying condition will be higher again.

Higher again?
How do you work that out?
92% of all deaths to date have been 65+.
How could the percentage be higher when they already make up a huge proportion of mortalities?
Does. Not. Compute.

normanoffside

gozunda wrote: »

:
So he says they report all covid related deaths - - that does not mean that they assign covid as a cause of death to anything and everything as you have suggested above

I knew you would nit-pick which is why in my follow up post I listened to his exact words and reported them as he said them

DrGlynn wrote:

'We've been very clear since day 1 that we've reported all deaths because of or with Covid 19"

In other words everyone who dies with covid is listed as a covid death.
It doesn't matter if it was the cause of death or not.

What else do you understand by 'we've reported all deaths with covid 19'?

gozunda

ypres5 wrote: »

So all the posts about irish people and southern reg cars being attacked were a group hallucination on the part of the people here? Considering I'm not the first person to reference them.

Well no - maybe just yours? And what relevance has the previous comments about reported rioting in NI etc got to do with anything which was being discussed tonight?

So you are "the people"??? Erm no I dont believe you are

Here's the comment you are referring to.. I believe there was another one or two on the same subject. Yeah I get the pot stirring. It doesn't wash my friend.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=116909034&postcount=6051

And btw the trouble there is not limited to any one side as you may bizarrely believe ...

But I guess as you've never lived there or seem to have a general clue on that subject. But the North is far from some "dystopian hellhole" as you bizarrely refer to it. But yes it does have some issues. But its not Mad Max eitherway.

But anyway you dug that up to apparently start some agro. Which you seem to like. Not going there my friend.

I'll leave you at it.

charlie14

Seweryn wrote: »

The explanation is simple, but there are no official figures supporting the fact.

Right at the start, it was obvious that the lockdowns and closures of hospital departments would kill far more people than the over-promoted virus. And that is exactly what has happened.

Hospital departments were shut and hospital staff with not enough to do performed funny dances which were put onto the internet to entertain the patients who were being denied medical treatment. Politicians claimed that hospitals were under huge pressure, but the figures showed that wards and intensive care units were emptier than usual.

So called cure (the lockdown policies and the refusal to treat other patients to "protect" them from infection) kills far more people than the disease. But no, you will not find it in official figures. Because who is going to admit and explain this? Corrupted politicians or lying doctors?

And just by sheer coincidence all those people show up in the 26 E.U. countries we have official statistics for as excessive deaths during the same time as the various Covid-19 waves.


I`m afraid to believe that would be stretching credulity into the realm of fantasy.

User1998

charlie14 wrote: »

I don`t know about you, but 141Million infected and 3.01Million dead in a year looks like a pandemic to me.

There are 55 million+ deaths every year tho

gozunda

normanoffside wrote: »

I knew you would nit-pick which is why in my follow up post I listened to his exact words and reported them as he said them. In other words everyone who dies with covid is listed as a covid death.
It doesn't matter if it was the cause of death or not. What else do you understand by 'we've reported all deaths with covid 19'?

Again thats not what you said

normanoffside wrote: »

Hi Gozunda, Dr Glynn was just asked about this and has confirmed that he reports all deaths with Covid19 whether or not it is the cause of or even a factor in the death .

I believe you're deliberately twisting his words.

To see how covid deaths are listed / determined see the following

https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/epidemiologyfrequentlyaskedquestions/

Definitions here

https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/casedefinitions/covid-19interimcasedefinitionforireland/

This fully explains how covid deaths differentiate between laboratory confirmed (tested positive) deaths and non laboratory confirmed deaths as alternatively determined by doctor only etc

Stipulations include that death due to Covid cannot be assigned where where there is a clear alternative cause of death (e.g. trauma).

charlie14

JRant wrote: »

Higher again?
How do you work that out?
92% of all deaths to date have been 65+.
How could the percentage be higher when they already make up a huge proportion of mortalities?
Does. Not. Compute.

If the CFR for all age groups is 2.14% if the 65+ deaths make up 92% rather than 100% then the percentage has to be higher.

Admittedly not by much, but it is still many times more than the 0.3% -0.5% that was claimed.

charlie14

User1998 wrote: »

There are 55 million+ deaths every year tho

I really do not understand what point you are making. Other than perhaps that we should just have ignored a transmittable virus that in a year has caused over 3 Million+ deaths on the basis that if you die you die.


If it is then maybe we should abondon all medical interventions regardless.

francogarbanzo

charlie14 wrote: »

I really do not understand what point you are making. Other than perhaps that we should just have ignored a transmittable virus that in a year has caused over 3 Million+ deaths on the basis that if you die you die.


If it is then maybe we should abondon all medical interventions regardless.

The only two options are ignoring the virus or closing the entire country for a year.

normanoffside

gozunda wrote: »

Again thats not what you said



I believe you're deliberately twisting his words.

To see how covid deaths are listed / reported see the following

https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/epidemiologyfrequentlyaskedquestions/

Definitions here

https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/casedefinitions/covid-19interimcasedefinitionforireland/

This fully explains how covid deaths differentiate between laboratory confirmed (tested positive) deaths and non laboratory confirmed deaths as alternatively determined by doctor only etc

Stipulations include that death due to Covid cannot be assigned where where there is a clear alternative cause of death (e.g. trauma).

And that death due to COVID-19 may not be attributed to a death from a non clinically compatible disease (e.g. cancer)

I initially reported it as I heard it and in the context of the conversation I believe that is what he was saying.

Then I went back and quoted his exact words which were that NPHET counted all deaths with covid. I.E. if you had covid at the time of death you were counted in the numbers.

I believe that is saying the same thing anyway.

Are you a professional arguer?

You remind me of John Cleese in that Monty python scene