Relaxation of Restrictions, Part X *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

PTH2009

Jesus its all unraveling isn't it

Silentcorner

PTH2009 wrote: »

Jesus its all unraveling isn't it

It was difficult to see how they could maintain the hysteria for the next few months....only the truly indoctrinated are supportive of these severe restrictions.

hynesie08

PTH2009 wrote: »

Jesus its all unraveling isn't it

What is? Your bleak outlook?

paddyisreal

Silentcorner wrote: »

It was difficult to see how they could maintain the hysteria for the next few months....only the truly indoctrinated are supportive of these severe restrictions.

What about the variants though? we must be wary of the variants and lockdown till the second coming

Silentcorner

paddyisreal wrote: »

What about the variants though? we must be wary of the variants and lockdown till the second coming

Remember Micheal warning us all that the variant was essentially a new virus...that was only a little over month ago...how wrong was he!!!!!!

The started to lose a lot of people when they extended the severe lock down into March, they did that at the beginning of Feb, they warned us about Paddy's day, Mothers Day, Easter....less and less people are listening...you can see that everywhere at this stage.

TomSweeney

arccosh wrote: »

disgraceful carry on, no moral backbone

jd1983

jd1983 wrote: »

If the pubs stayed open in summer, more people would have got the virus during the summer but the numbers would have still been low,

Apologies, I missed your response to my post until now.

Your entire argument seems to hinge on this one point quoted above, which I cannot get my head around. How would the numbers still be low if more people would have contracted the virus? You're contradicting yourself within the same sentence.

If the pubs were open all last summer, there would have been an explosion in numbers. what logic are you using to say that the numbers would have still been low?

Graham

Silentcorner wrote: »

It was difficult to see how they could maintain the hysteria for the next few months....only the truly indoctrinated are supportive of these severe restrictions.

Why?

They appear to have worked as intended to the point where they are now being relaxed.

gozunda

darconio wrote: »

A very long hyperbole, but in conclusion, can we agree, as stated in the official document, that the death toll, in Ireland, was inflated in accordance with the WHO directives?
I'm not looking for the reason behind, can we at least admit it?

I'm not sure you understand what the word hyperbole means tbh. Everything detailed is simply based on how things are.

But nope thats not was said at all. Do read the comment again.

And btw the WHO dont do "directives".

scamalert

Graham wrote: »

Why?

They appear to have worked as intended to the point where they are now being relaxed.

but why would they relax it then if it works so good shouldn't we keep it up then for another year or two ? surely we want to save everyone no ?

not serious btw ^ but seems this is the logic pro lowdown campers are using here

hynesie08

scamalert wrote: »

but why would they relax it then if it works so good shouldn't we keep it up then for another year or two ? surely we want to save everyone no ?

not serious btw ^ but seems this is the logic pro lowdown campers are using here

You'll be able to find several posts easy enough to back up that claim then?

scamalert

scamalert wrote: »

but why would they relax it then if it works so good shouldn't we keep it up then for another year or two ? surely we want to save everyone no ?

not serious btw ^ but seems this is the logic pro lowdown campers are using here

Only in the minds of the usual spoofers who assume anyone not demanding immediate relaxation of most restrictions are automatically in support of maintaining and extending existing restrictions.

charlie14

darconio wrote: »

A very long hyperbole, but in conclusion, can we agree, as stated in the official document, that the death toll, in Ireland, was inflated in accordance with the WHO directives?
I'm not looking for the reason behind, can we at least admit it?

What is it that you cannot get that there is no official 2020 statistical document for Ireland yet published on the number of deaths ?
The only official statistical authority for Ireland is the Central Statistics Office. It has been since 1949 and is recognised by Eurostat, a Directorate-General of the European Commission as such.
Any other figures are not officially recognised.


Would you agree that when Ireland`s official figures are know, should they be in line with these unofficial figures and guesses being bandied around, then they would show that compared to the official excess death figures of the other E.U. states now that we know their statistics, Ireland would be recognised as having kept deaths from Covid-19 proportionally lower than practically all the rest ?

paddyisreal

Silentcorner wrote: »

Remember Micheal warning us all that the variant was essentially a new virus...that was only a little over month ago...how wrong was he!!!!!!

The started to lose a lot of people when they extended the severe lock down into March, they did that at the beginning of Feb, they warned us about Paddy's day, Mothers Day, Easter....less and less people are listening...you can see that everywhere at this stage.

tbh no one is listening anymore. It has just been one mess after another and most people have had enough from what I have seen anecdotally.

darconio

gozunda wrote: »

I'm not sure you understand what the word hyperbole means tbh. Everything detailed is simply based on how things are.

But nope thats not was said at all. Do read the comment again.

And btw the WHO dont do "directives".

charlie14 wrote: »

What is it that you cannot get that there is no official 2020 statistical document for Ireland yet published on the number of deaths ?
The only official statistical authority for Ireland is the Central Statistics Office. It has been since 1949 and is recognised by Eurostat, a Directorate-General of the European Commission as such.
Any other figures are not officially recognised.


Would you agree that when Ireland`s official figures are know, should they be in line with these unofficial figures and guesses being bandied around, then they would show that compared to the official excess death figures of the other E.U. states now that we know their statistics, Ireland would be recognised as having kept deaths from Covid-19 proportionally lower than practically all the rest ?

Well guys if you cannot even read and accept what's said in an official document then I rest my case

https://www.hiqa.ie/sites/default/fi...epidemic_0.pdf

As of mid April, in line with World Health Organization (WHO) guidance, death reporting was extended to include deaths both in patients with probable COVID-19 in addition to deaths among confirmed cases.
By definition, such deaths must result from a clinically compatible illness, in a probable or confirmed COVID-19 case, unless there is a clear alternative cause of death that cannot be related to COVID-19 (for example, trauma).

moonage

Silentcorner wrote: »

Remember Micheal warning us all that the variant was essentially a new virus...that was only a little over month ago...how wrong was he!!!!!!

All variants are currently 99.7% similar to the original Wuhan viral sequence.

The fearmongering around variants is part of the ruse. Clearly something very sinister is afoot.

gozunda

Del Griffith wrote: »

Load of beside the point bollocks as usual, you can argue about the principal cause of death with the solicitor and coroner (he should find it amusing that you know more about his career profession that him, but let's not digress)

Here is my actual statement which you called a lie :

"you can literally die of anything and if you test positive, you're in the numbers".

As you well know, your chums in NPHET and RTE count all "covid related deaths" in the numbers. It doesn't have to be the PCoD - it all gets scooped up for the daily numbers (tm).

I've yet to find anything in your lengthy post that qualifies my line as "bs", so feel free to elaborate on that.

I'll just leave this here too, somewhat pertinent:

https://twitter.com/LeoVaradkar/status/1278995351169613824

We you see del. Thats the thing - it's not a pile of 'bollocsk".

Just because it doesn't match with your world view does not mean everything else is incorrect. And yes our solicitor friend does not have a medical degree etc. But we'll park that.

But again you've completely failed to address any of the points made. And you may wish to check - nothing was called a 'lie' btw. But saying I did - is indeed a lie

And funnily enough I don't have "chums in Nphet" or RTE. I rarely look to either for data or information tbh.

As for that rather odd tweet you're relying on.

You may notice its a response an RTE article about a study which assessed the number of deaths that occurred in Ireland from 11 March to 16 June 2020 relative to the expected number of deaths, using data from the death notices website RIP.ie.

We now know that death notices from RIP etc are not a reliable source of data for deaths. And if you wish to take that rather poor RTE article as proof of something or other by virtue of Leo making a comment on it. On your head be it.

Interestingly though enough Dr Teljeur Senior statistician / Trinity College Dublin - is contrast to the general tone and quoted in the linked article states that the official figure of 1,700 deaths as a result of the virus is correct and while it may be a slight overestimate it is an accurate estimate and the reality is that those people did die as a result of contracting the virus. 

And back to your "statement". It remains it's little more than bullstuff.

For example - If you get hit and killed by a bus - having previously having contracted Covid (but got better despite having a dicky heart) - your death certificate will NOT list Covid as a cause of death.

You may also appreciate - that Ireland has a fairly low death rate - so if as you claim they're exaggerating deaths. They're not doing a very good job of it are they?

charlie14

darconio wrote: »

Well guys if you cannot even read and accept what's said in an official document then I rest my case

https://www.hiqa.ie/sites/default/fi...epidemic_0.pdf

As of mid April, in line with World Health Organization (WHO) guidance, death reporting was extended to include deaths both in patients with probable COVID-19 in addition to deaths among confirmed cases.
By definition, such deaths must result from a clinically compatible illness, in a probable or confirmed COVID-19 case, unless there is a clear alternative cause of death that cannot be related to COVID-19 (for example, trauma).

That link does not work, and even if it did it`s irrelevant.
Not only is HIQA not the official recognised statistical agency for Ireland, but your whole premise is irrelevant unless you can somehow explain away official statistics for other countries that show high excess deaths that coincide with the various Covid waves.
WHO "guidance" is completely irrelevant when it comes to excess deaths. Their "guidance" is not going to change those figures.

So again, when Ireland`s official statistics are know if your premise is correct based on these assumptions and unofficial figures, then would it not show just how successful we have been in dealing with this virus ?
You cannot have it both ways

Silentcorner

Silentcorner wrote: »

It was difficult to see how they could maintain the hysteria for the next few months....only the truly indoctrinated are supportive of these severe restrictions.

Graham wrote: »

Why?

They appear to have worked as intended to the point where they are now being relaxed.

Like I said....

Tipsy McSwagger

PTH2009 wrote: »

Jesus its all unraveling isn't it

When you look at the way the UK are now with all shops opened, people able to go to the hairdressers and have a pint, it was only a matter of time before our useless government caved in.

Del Griffith

gozunda wrote: »

We you see del. Thats the thing - it's not a pile of 'bollocsk".

Just because it doesn't match with your world view does not mean everything else is incorrect. And yes our solicitor friend does not have a medical degree etc. But we'll park that.

But again you've completely failed to address any of the points made. And you may wish to check - nothing was called a 'lie' btw. But saying I did - is indeed a lie

And funnily enough I don't have "chums in Nphet" or RTE. I rarely look to either for data or information tbh.

As for that rather odd tweet you're relying on.

You may notice its a response an RTE article about a study which assessed the number of deaths that occurred in Ireland from 11 March to 16 June 2020 relative to the expected number of deaths, using data from the death notices website RIP.ie.

We now know that death notices from RIP etc are not a reliable source of data for deaths. And if you wish to take that rather poor RTE article as proof of something or other by virtue of Leo making a comment on it. On your head be it.

Interestingly though enough Dr Teljeur Senior statistician / Trinity College Dublin - is contrast to the general tone and quoted in the linked article states that the official figure of 1,700 deaths as a result of the virus is correct and while it may be a slight overestimate it is an accurate estimate and the reality is that those people did die as a result of contracting the virus. 

And back to your "statement". It remains it's little more than bullstuff.

For example - If you get hit and killed by a bus - having previously having contracted Covid (but got better despite having a dicky heart) - your death certificate will NOT list Covid as a cause of death.

You may also appreciate - that Ireland has a fairly low death rate - so if as you claim they're exaggerating deaths. They're not doing a very good job of it are they?

Why would I address any of your points? They have nothing to do with said. I directed you towards the coroner, you should take up your view of his professional opinion in his own trade with him.

I'm still waiting for you to explain how all "covid-related deaths" ie: the daily numbers Ireland is fed, are covid as a principal cause of death.

The way you haven't answered directly almost seems like, maybe covid isn't always the principal cause of death? But that would be wild, as they are all counted in the numbers, which is what I actually said in the first place. Odd that.

TomTomTim

What a joke. They only speak up after the EU Commission questioned the validity of the decision. The ICCL are one of the most useless groups in this country.

Irish Council for Civil Liberties calls for mandatory hotel quarantine to be suspended

darconio

charlie14 wrote: »

That link does not work, and even if it did it`s irrelevant.
Not only is HIQA not the official recognised statistical agency for Ireland, but your whole premise is irrelevant unless you can somehow explain away official statistics for other countries that show high excess deaths that coincide with the various Covid waves.
WHO "guidance" is completely irrelevant when it comes to excess deaths. Their "guidance" is not going to change those figures.

So again, when Ireland`s official statistics are know if your premise is correct based on these assumptions and unofficial figures, then would it not show just how successful we have been in dealing with this virus ?
You cannot have it both ways

You keep ignoring what I am trying to demonstrate with a document provided by the Health Information and Quality Authority of Ireland.

https://www.hiqa.ie/sites/default/files/2020-07/Analysis-of-excess-all-cause-mortality-in-Ireland-during-the-COVID-19-epidemic_0.pdf

Those statistics you are talking about are inflated by the amount of people that were reported as death by covid, but in reality they weren't.
They reported x people dying by covid, but the reality is that y did: how could anybody create a proper statistic if the numbers are/were not correct?

Tipsy McSwagger

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

When you look at the way the UK are now with all shops opened, people able to go to the hairdressers and have a pint, it was only a matter of time before our useless government caved in.

Have they given dates now for hairdressers reopening?

Graham

Del Griffith wrote: »

I'm still waiting for you to explain how all "covid-related deaths" ie: the daily numbers Ireland is fed, are covid as a principal cause of death.

The way you haven't answered directly almost seems like, maybe covid isn't always the principal cause of death? But that would be wild, as they are all counted in the numbers, which is what I actually said in the first place. Odd that.

What impact is that going to have on the relaxation of restrictions either way?

gozunda

darconio wrote: »

Well guys if you cannot even read and accept what's said in an official document then I rest my case

https://www.hiqa.ie/sites/default/fi...epidemic_0.pdf

As of mid April, in line with World Health Organization (WHO) guidance, death reporting was extended to include deaths both in patients with probable COVID-19 in addition to deaths among confirmed cases.
By definition, such deaths must result from a clinically compatible illness, in a probable or confirmed COVID-19 case, unless there is a clear alternative cause of death that cannot be related to COVID-19 (for example, trauma).

Well darconio. To answer that- I can read, but I'll ask- can you? Thats a very out of date document.

You may note the above quote was taken from a study published by HIQA using RIP website information between March and April 2020 and Published in July 2020 and uses a (now old) definition from WHO from April of last year solely for the purpose of that study.

Firstly the study itself and definition are now well out of date.

Secondly this is the current international guidance on reporting Covid deaths from the relevant body - the ECDC - and as detailed by the HSPC

The case definition for COVID-19 in Ireland has been updated routinely during the pandemic in accordance with the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC) guidance and updates.

Deaths in confirmed COVID-19 case: A death in a person with laboratory confirmation of COVID-19 infection, irrespective of clinical signs and symptoms (including post mortem).

Deaths in probable COVID-19 case: A death in a person with probable COVID-19 infection as described in the COVID-19 case definition below

Deaths in possible/suspect COVID-19 case: See below scenarios for possible/suspect cases which should be reported as COVID-19 deaths.

All deaths in patients suspected of having COVID-19 i.e. patients with symptoms clinically compatible with COVID-19 illness. These suspect cases may or may not have been tested for COVID-19 prior to death. These possible COVID-19 deaths include patients with pending COVID-19 laboratory results. 

All unexplained deaths/sudden deaths in residential facilities with a confirmed/suspected COVID-19 cluster/outbreak of illness unless there is a clear alternative cause of death that cannot be related to COVID-19 disease (e.g. trauma)

https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/epidemiologyfrequentlyaskedquestions/

Now all the above does - is differentiate between laboratory confirmed (tested positive) deaths and non laboratory confirmed deaths as alternatively determined by doctors etc

Stipulations include that death due to Covid cannot be assigned where where there is a clear alternative cause of death (e.g. trauma).

And that death due to COVID-19 may not be attributed to a death from a non clinically compatible disease (e.g. cancer)

Elsewhere it is also noted that there should be no period of complete recovery from COVID-19 between illness and death in assigning Covid as a cause of death.

And those are the international guidelines Not just here. So if its all a big conspiracy- I guess everyone is at it.

Thing is Ireland thankfully does not have a particularly high death rate compared to other countries- so if the powers that be are exaggerating the figures. They're not very good at it tbh.

KanyeSouthEast

Did the Mothers Day/Patrick’s Day/Easter Surge occur or was that all forgotten about?

normanoffside

gozunda wrote: »

We you see del. Thats the thing - it's not a pile of 'bollocsk".

Just because it doesn't match with your world view does not mean everything else is incorrect. And yes our solicitor friend does not have a medical degree etc. But we'll park that.

But again you've completely failed to address any of the points made. And you may wish to check - nothing was called a 'lie' btw. But saying I did - is indeed a lie

And funnily enough I don't have "chums in Nphet" or RTE. I rarely look to either for data or information tbh.

As for that rather odd tweet you're relying on.

You may notice its a response an RTE article about a study which assessed the number of deaths that occurred in Ireland from 11 March to 16 June 2020 relative to the expected number of deaths, using data from the death notices website RIP.ie.

We now know that death notices from RIP etc are not a reliable source of data for deaths. And if you wish to take that rather poor RTE article as proof of something or other by virtue of Leo making a comment on it. On your head be it.

Interestingly though enough Dr Teljeur Senior statistician / Trinity College Dublin - is contrast to the general tone and quoted in the linked article states that the official figure of 1,700 deaths as a result of the virus is correct and while it may be a slight overestimate it is an accurate estimate and the reality is that those people did die as a result of contracting the virus. 

And back to your "statement". It remains it's little more than bullstuff.

For example - If you get hit and killed by a bus - having previously having contracted Covid (but got better despite having a dicky heart) - your death certificate will NOT list Covid as a cause of death.

You may also appreciate - that Ireland has a fairly low death rate - so if as you claim they're exaggerating deaths. They're not doing a very good job of it are they?

Hi Gozunda, Dr Glynn was just asked about this and has confirmed that he reports all deaths with Covid19 whether or not it is the cause of or even a factor in the death.

paddyisreal

KanyeSouthEast wrote: »

Did the Mothers Day/Patrick’s Day/Easter Surge occur or was that all forgotten about?

There's 4 cases reported of the Indian varriant today apparently to do with all the take away curries eaten over mother's day etc

Silentcorner

KanyeSouthEast wrote: »

Did the Mothers Day/Patrick’s Day/Easter Surge occur or was that all forgotten about?

No but to be fair...we were warned about the lethal nature of passing the gravy boat at family dinner occasions last Christmas, so I'd expect people did what we did, we all brought our own gravy boats...so....that probably kept the numbers down!!!