Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

Smacruairi

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

These students can't be taught ans supported adequately through online learning. The risk needs to be balanced against their needs.

Grand, I agree. So why when unions asked for ppe, a return of contact tracing, and much increased testing was this refused?

Surely this would have been a basic to reduce risk?

Also for those recommending face shields, it's a respiratory illness passed through the air.

the kelt

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

If you cant do your work properly at home, you need to attend for work. Like doctors, bus / luas drivers, nurses, council staff doing essential works and maintenance etc etc....

These students can't be taught ans supported adequately through online learning. The risk needs to be balanced against their needs.

Would you be happy if that situation meant other students missed out on their needs being met?

In mainstream for example if special needs teachers are solely focussed on those students the work they do with other students who dont fall into category doesnt happen?

Special needs teachers in mosty mainstream dont just work with special needs kids, they work with others struggling etc thats currently being done online but wouldnt be.

Do you think teachers should have their full budget for ppe etc reisntated and for proper contact tracing to be in place because to date all that Norma Foley offered was few extra days leave etc?

khalessi

Anything4883 wrote: »

Im not comparing jobs..... Im saying, if nurses took the same approach, that they dont want to go into their place of work because they didnt feel safe.... where would we be?

And dont try and convince me that Tecahers teaching online is the same as school classroom teaching.

No I will say when I trained as a nurse I knew the inherent risks of the job, and it was made very clear to us during training: needlestick injuries, possibility of develop TB so manitoux test carried out and bcg renewed, catching scabies headlice, being attacked by patients (I still have the marks), 10% will get pregnant (13% in my groups case), 10% develop drug addicition ( our group 5%), 10% psychiatric illness (15% in my group).

So I was well aware of the risks. The needlestick injuries carried a risk of Hep B or HIV and anytime this happened the person was sent to Occupational Health and looked after.

As a nurse I always felt looked after, I was made aware of the risks and also of how they would be dealt with. I was pinned up against a wall by a patient and that was dealt with properly too and was attacked by various patients, I have had urine thrown at me and faeces all part of the job.

I also worked during our Aids epidemic of the late 80s/early 90s which wa sa major thing here at the time despite what some on here would like to think. PPE of the time provided.

Since I have become a teacher I have been attacked by a number of students and this was brushed over apart from now johnny apologise, been robbed by 2 students, nothing done.

Teaching is a very different career it does not have the risks associated with nursing and requres a different mindset.

I was stunned when I started first as a teacher to discover that children get educational psychology assessments done at 6 or 7 and there is not impetus due to shortages to update them.

In residential care these were updated anything up to yearly depending on the client and their needs.

In schools most children in 6th are recieving care based on an assessment done when they were in infants or 1st class. I do think there should be yearly multi disciplary reviews on these but that is hard to get when each school is only allowed 3 assessments per year.

Online teaching of course it is not like face to face, it is harder to have the criac with the children. It takes more time. I have spent this morning chatting to one kids about his dog who is very ill and explaining on the phone the Fibonacci sequence to 3 more.

I have corrected worked from my students adding detailed comments that normally can be said in seconds to them in the classroom. However the children know it they have a question it will be answered asap, the parents know they can contact me if necessary and ae very happy so far with how it is going

wirelessdude01

mariaalice wrote: »

Joe Duffy on RTE Radio 1 now, talking to a teacher who wants to go back to a special needs school she came on because she said those who want to go back are less vocal and don't get heard.

She has the same voice as everyone else.

History Queen

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Thank you, not the comprehensive vote of confidence I had thought. Was he speaking in the context of just the special schools opening or all schools?

Schools in general afaik. But I can't find where he said opening special schools in the manner proposed by the Dept was safe. Happy to be corrected.

CapriciousOne

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Thank you, not the comprehensive vote of confidence I had thought. Was he speaking in the context of just the special schools opening or all schools?

The webinar was specifically targeted at teachers and SNAs from SNE schools so it should have been the former, however it wasn't immediately clear and all questions specific to SNE settings were ignored.

The webinar is free to view on YouTube for those that want to watch/formulate an opinion for themselves.

downthemiddle

No union has directed their members not to return to school.
Norma tells us schools are safe (although saying the same thing repeatedly without changing the outcome may not reflect well on her)
It is within the remit of the government to reopen schools in the morning. If they genuinely believe there is minimal risk open the schools and see what happens.

WicklaBlaa

the kelt wrote: »

Would you be happy if that situation meant other students missed out on their needs being met?

In mainstream for example if special needs teachers are solely focussed on those students the work they do with other students who dont fall into category doesnt happen?

Special needs teachers in mosty mainstream dont just work with special needs kids, they work with others struggling etc thats currently being done online but wouldnt be.

Do you think teachers should have their full budget for ppe etc reisntated and for proper contact tracing to be in place because to date all that Norma Foley offered was few extra days leave etc?

It would be very difficult to balance and a massive challenge. Neither group would have a satisfactory learning experience, but it is short term and would be better than the current situation.

py

mariaalice wrote: »

I know a school will involve a certain amount of risk, but the risk has to balance and that means teachers and SNA's might have to accept a certain amount of risk for the good of society and the student they serve.

Remember special schools were only going to have 50% capacity as well.

Nothing in life is risk-free.

Correct, nothing is risk free. However, the hospitals are maxed out with covid cases. Contact tracing is all but non existent right now. Where we're at now with regards to covid has not been seen in an of the prior lockdowns, partifcularly with the additional strains of covid in the community. Whilst I appreciate that these are challenging times for those people who have children/family members with special needs, I'm going to opt to keep my wife (mother to 2 kids and a SET teacher) at home during this pandemic until there's some signs that they'll get a vaccine as a priority. She didn't sign up to be a front line worker. If that's what teachers are to be classifed as now, the vaccine priority needs to change.

She wanted to go back this Thursday. Was excited to. She loves teaching. Loves the kids. This however, is simply not worth the risk of contracting any of the covid strains and until tracing resumes, numbers significantly drop and vaccines are administered to these now front line workers, she'll be at home educating remotely like she has done in other lockdowns.

khalessi

intellectual dosser wrote: »

In your opinion would children with special needs be better off staying at home or getting back into their classroom in some capacity. Yes or No if you could.

This is a very complicated question because as I said elsewhere schools shore up the broken Health care system which should be helping parents with respite during this time and services such as OT SLT physio Neps Camhs etc

The problem was and is that neither Josepha or Norma investigated the role of Special Education Teacher and as a result ended up pitting one group of children with additional needs with another group with literacy and numeracy needs.

Also neither listened to NPHET who said on page 5 of his letter from Jan 5th, "Equally, it is my view that, while the experience from September to December 2020 has clearly demonstrated that schools are in themselves a safe environment, the current epidemiological situation has deteriorated to a point where the significant levels of mobility and linked activity that the full
reopening of schools would generate, constitutes a very significant additional risk in the context of what are already unprecedented levels of disease transmission in the community.

Even Dr. Ronan Glynn during his few minutes on the webinar said now it not the time or someting to that effect.

We are dealing with a new strain B117 highly virulant and 3 more on the way.
PPE cleaning budget was slashed by 40% for this term
No contact tracing available no improvement to ppe
Webinar did not address safety in school went out of its way not to. It did not address the questions asked by the community.
Enhanced safety considering lack of sd in schools and new virus was not addressed
So considering all of this and also what CMO said about community affects school and high case numbers with hospitals under strain and ICU under strain at the moment stay at home.

threescompany

mariaalice wrote: »

I know a school will involve a certain amount of risk, but the risk has to balance and that means teachers and SNA's might have to accept a certain amount of risk for the good of society and the student they serve.

Remember special schools were only going to have 50% capacity as well.

Nothing in life is risk-free.

“ good of society & the student they serve”


Do you think sending children into mainstream schools to receive learning support with just a handful of other students is for the good of society and that child? Is it possible that child would feel marginalised and wonder why am I here? Where are the rest of my class? Is this worth considering?

How is partially reopening schools “for the good of society”

I’ve said it before, it’s far from ideal, but Homs schooling can be done from home. Many children struggling in school are thriving on the online activities.. it’s not one size fits all. Our school have sent out the books, online tutorials, daily emails, seesaw activities, access reading & maths websites. Yes it’s tough but a short stint at home elk hardly affect their entire educational life!

Smacruairi

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

It would be very difficult to balance and a massive challenge. Neither group would have a satisfactory learning experience, but it is short term and would be better than the current situation.

" People meeting for over 15 minutes in groups indoors. Weddings, funerals, gatherings in pubs, restaurants.

Keep the schools closed for an extra two weeks. Without the Christmas socialising, numbers are going to fall."

You posted that 2 weeks ago. What has changed in 2 weeks with regards your 15min comment.

History Queen

mariaalice wrote: »

I asked someone that before what is appropriate PPE for staff in special schools are staff looking for the same PPE as in the covid wards or would they be happy with disposable masks and a face shield.

I don't teach or have first hand experience of the needs in a special school so I can't comment on what level of PPE would be appropriate.

WicklaBlaa

the kelt wrote: »

Would you be happy if that situation meant other students missed out on their needs being met?

Do you think teachers should have their full budget for ppe etc reisntated and for proper contact tracing to be in place because to date all that Norma Foley offered was few extra days leave etc?

No one's needs are being met perfectly at the moment. Its just about doing the best we can call do in the current circumstances.

Yes would agree with reinstating Ppe budget.

Contact tracing is a shambles for everyone.

History Queen

Carazy wrote: »

He was referring to FULL reopening and not on a small number of SEN students

Can you find where he said reopening for the SEN cohort as proposed by the Dept was safe? I have looked but can't find it.

the kelt

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

It would be very difficult to balance and a massive challenge. Neither group would have a satisfactory learning experience, but it is short term and would be better than the current situation.

So you dont think teachers should have their full budget for ppe etc reisntated and for proper contact tracing to be in place

CapriciousOne

History Queen wrote: »

Can you find where he said reopening for the SEN cohort as proposed by the Dept was safe? I have looked but can't find it.

You won't find it because it wasn't said.

WicklaBlaa

Smacruairi wrote: »

" People meeting for over 15 minutes in groups indoors. Weddings, funerals, gatherings in pubs, restaurants.

Keep the schools closed for an extra two weeks. Without the Christmas socialising, numbers are going to fall."

You posted that 2 weeks ago. What has changed in 2 weeks with regards your 15min comment.

The numbers are now falling after two weeks so I agree with my comment above.

Indoor activities carry more risk, but essential work needs to the carried out. Risk needs to be managed.

Less meetups in community means less community transmission and less risk in schools .

the kelt

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

The numbers are now falling after two weeks so I agree with my comment above.

Indoor activities carry more risk, but essential work needs to the carried out. Risk needs to be managed.

Less meetups in community means less community transmission and less risk in schools .

But your proposing more community meet ups!

intellectual dosser

khalessi wrote: »

This is a very complicated question because as I said elsewhere schools shore up the broken Health care system which should be helping parents with respite during this time and services such as OT SLT physio Neps Camhs etc

The problem was and is that neither Josepha or Norma investigated the role of Special Education Teacher and as a result ended up pitting one group of children with additional needs with another group with literacy and numeracy needs.

Also neither listened to NPHET who said on page 5 of his letter from Jan 5th, "Equally, it is my view that, while the experience from September to December 2020 has clearly demonstrated that schools are in themselves a safe environment, the current epidemiological situation has deteriorated to a point where the significant levels of mobility and linked activity that the full
reopening of schools would generate, constitutes a very significant additional risk in the context of what are already unprecedented levels of disease transmission in the community.

Even Dr. Ronan Glynn during his few minutes on the webinar said now it not the time or someting to that effect.

We are dealing with a new strain B117 highly virulant and 3 more on the way.
PPE cleaning budget was slashed by 40% for this term
No contact tracing available no improvement to ppe
Webinar did not address safety in school went out of its way not to. It did not address the questions asked by the community.
Enhanced safety considering lack of sd in schools and new virus was not addressed
So considering all of this and also what CMO said about community affects school and high case numbers with hospitals under strain and ICU under strain at the moment stay at home.

While I disagree with a lot of it, or at least how your points apply to the particular matter of opening Special Schools in some capacity...I appreciate the response, thank you.

Smacruairi

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

.

Less meetups in community means less community transmission and less risk in schools .

But you see that the hospitals are under strain, no contact tracing, and you want to shove people into a room for considersbly longer than 15. You want to increase the numbers meeting ffs.

Your argument of "but that's a sacrifice im willing to make" rings very hollow now.

Lillyfae

the kelt wrote: »

So you dont think teachers should have their full budget for ppe etc reisntated and for proper contact tracing to be in place

Not really. It should be centralized because principals don't have a clue what they're doing, clearly. Plus it was never pulled, it was pro rata.

WicklaBlaa

the kelt wrote: »

But your proposing more community meet ups!

In schools where essential work is being carried out. Essential work is separate to socialising.

thomasdylan

Smacruairi wrote: »

Really, last I checked all other public sector workers that could remotely work from home are at home. Rang my gp, he would only do a remote call. Funny that. You wouldn't be comparing apples and orange again like you were literally just whinging about?

Teachers union are most powerful in the country. Lol. Luas went on a strike for a day and got a pay rise. Doctors threatened strike in the past few months. Your bias is showing, try again.

How many times have doctors unions and teachers unions gone on strike in the last 20 years and what for? The IMO has had a single day of strike action to get maximum shift down to 24 hours. ED and emergencies were still covered. There is no comparison between the two.

downthemiddle

thomasdylan wrote: »

How many times have doctors unions and teachers unions gone on strike in the last 20 years and what for? The IMO has had a single day of strike action to get maximum shift down to 24 hours. ED and emergencies were still covered. There is no comparison between the two.

Please tell us how many times teachers unions have gone on strike in the last 20 years.

paddyirish23

History Queen wrote: »

Oh that's true about the underlying conditions. Brain blip on my behalf. What do you think of the rest of my post?

We all take a risk leaving our home. I get they might have a family member who is vulnerable as a lot of ppl do but even if they got the vaccine, it wouldn't stop transmission from them to their family member so something has to give, or do they not want to go back until everyone has been vaccinated? Yrs at our governments rate

khalessi

Lillyfae wrote: »

Not really. It should be centralized because principals don't have a clue what they're doing, clearly. Plus it was never pulled, it was pro rata.

I think at the time the principals did what they thought wa scorrect which was further iencouraged MM visiting a school that had a sheet of perspex hanging from the ceiling in front of teacher desk and was lauded as good protection. I remember laughing at it at the time.

Now I think the money would be spent in a different way as we all have learnt more. I do think the cut should be reversed but I doubt that will happen

WicklaBlaa

Smacruairi wrote: »

But you see that the hospitals are under strain, no contact tracing, and you want to shove people into a room for considersbly longer than 15. You want to increase the numbers meeting ffs.

Your argument of "but that's a sacrifice im willing to make" rings very hollow now.

Numbers are coming down now quite steadily. R number below 1.

Unregulated risky Christmas meet ups are over, things are stabilising the community. Some way to go in hospitals.

I think the work in schools for children with additional needs is essential and therefore the risk should be managed and regulated like other environments.

Smacruairi

thomasdylan wrote: »

How many times have doctors unions and teachers unions gone on strike in the last 20 years and what for? The IMO has had a single day of strike action to get maximum shift down to 24 hours. ED and emergencies were still covered. There is no comparison between the two.

Nurses were on strike at start of 2019.doctors voted to strike in 2021. Everything else you're saying is deflection.

the kelt

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

In schools where essential work is being carried out. Essential work is separate to socialising.

Its still community meet ups!

Would it not be better to get all kids back, why risk that?

Do you actually trust this government to do the right thing in this situation?

If teachers are essential workers why not move them up the vaccination list for example rather than 3rd last behind lorry drivers for example.

Im actually an essential worker and havent been in my office since last March where essential work is being carried out