Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

the kelt

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

We'll be back here in two weeks when schools are due to be reopening. The same arguments being made for staying shut.

No real solutions being offered. Conditions are never perfect but these are unprecedented times.

If only the minister had put together some form of plan b over the last year for the very position we find ourselves in. Sure she hardly had the time she was so busy so therefore her approach is the Nike approach "just do it" trying to railroad people in to doing what she wants becaus she has no other plan

Its funny how the current mess we are in is as a result really of government going against public health advice before christmas yet a few weeks since people want government to do the same again!

Like Goldfish!

RebelButtMunch

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Blended solution was mentioned in the reopening schools document In July '20. Never mentioned since.

Norma is obviously totally against anything that she doesn't come up with.

I don't think it's even as sophisticated as that. She's stuck in the 1980's and sincerely believes in the leaving cert tradition.

ginoginelli

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

I don't think it's even as sophisticated as that. She's stuck in the 1980's and sincerely believes in the leaving cert tradition.

She's a walking talking anachronism.

Carazy

With crèche staff at work still has there been any outbreaks there in the past while. The level of contact would be somewhat similar to the SEN student situation.

Smacruairi

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

Secretaries don't just talk on the phone to patients but you know this. They come to work in hospitals everyday, places with the most outbreaks and deal with colleagues and sick patients.

They are vital to the running of hospitals. Please be respectful to other workers.

Sorry where was I being disrespectful to secretarial workers? There was zero in that sentence. In fact its you who is doing a great disservice to SNAs saying "they just need to get on with it ".

khalessi

MacDanger wrote: »

Do you not understand why the admissions "secretary" (as you put it) in a hospital is a higher priority than anyone in a teaching environment?

I have been watching the news and the faux outrage at admin in hospitals getting the vaccine.

Madness of course they should get it, they are working in a Covid environment and even if some are not face to face with patients, they are face to face with HCWs so to me the entire hospital should be vaccinated at the same time. Just makes sense to create a safer environment

WicklaBlaa

the kelt wrote: »

Its funny how the current mess we are in is as a result really of government going against public health advice before christmas yet a few weeks since people want government to do the same again!

Like Goldfish!

Yes and no. 50,000 people flying into Ireland with no proper quarantine was a massive part of the high spike, much higher than anticipated.

Close the borders.... for another thread....

But yes Goldfish. We are all Goldfish.

Anything4883

khalessi wrote: »

No I will say when I trained as a nurse I knew the inherent risks of the job, and it was made very clear to us during training: needlestick injuries, possibility of develop TB so manitoux test carried out and bcg renewed, catching scabies headlice, being attacked by patients (I still have the marks), 10% will get pregnant (13% in my groups case), 10% develop drug addicition ( our group 5%), 10% psychiatric illness (15% in my group).

So I was well aware of the risks. The needlestick injuries carried a risk of Hep B or HIV and anytime this happened the person was sent to Occupational Health and looked after.

As a nurse I always felt looked after, I was made aware of the risks and also of how they would be dealt with. I was pinned up against a wall by a patient and that was dealt with properly too and was attacked by various patients, I have had urine thrown at me and faeces all part of the job.

I also worked during our Aids epidemic of the late 80s/early 90s which wa sa major thing here at the time despite what some on here would like to think. PPE of the time provided.

Since I have become a teacher I have been attacked by a number of students and this was brushed over apart from now johnny apologise, been robbed by 2 students, nothing done.

Teaching is a very different career it does not have the risks associated with nursing and requres a different mindset.

I was stunned when I started first as a teacher to discover that children get educational psychology assessments done at 6 or 7 and there is not impetus due to shortages to update them.

In residential care these were updated anything up to yearly depending on the client and their needs.

In schools most children in 6th are recieving care based on an assessment done when they were in infants or 1st class. I do think there should be yearly multi disciplary reviews on these but that is hard to get when each school is only allowed 3 assessments per year.

Online teaching of course it is not like face to face, it is harder to have the criac with the children. It takes more time. I have spent this morning chatting to one kids about his dog who is very ill and explaining on the phone the Fibonacci sequence to 3 more.

I have corrected worked from my students adding detailed comments that normally can be said in seconds to them in the classroom. However the children know it they have a question it will be answered asap, the parents know they can contact me if necessary and ae very happy so far with how it is going

And again... I will ask, If Nurses , or People working Creches or people working in supermarkets etc took the same attitude as Teachers.......... They dont feel safe , so they wont go into work...... Where would we be?

WicklaBlaa

Smacruairi wrote: »

Sorry where was I being disrespectful to secretarial workers? There was zero in that sentence. In fact its you who is doing a great disservice to SNAs saying "they just need to get on with it ".

Implying they do the entirety of their work by phone and are less deserving of a vaccine perhaps...

Mrsmum

penny piper wrote: »

I think it's very unfair of the parents attitude to the teachers/snas who are expected to go to work in a clearly unsafe environment....

I saw the rte news where the Doctor took part....she also employes someone to mind her children... I didn't see her that disadvantaged ...

But the other poster wasn't saying what you're saying in the first paragraph which has a certain logic to it. Instead of saying how can these parents expect teachers back currently, what was said was how could a mother send her own child into unsafe conditions. Who are we, who are not in those circumstances,to say we know better than that mother what's best for her child.
Regarding the doctor having childcare, obviously it's so she can go to work. It's a bit strange to regard her as uppity because she is using childcare. So are tons of employees who are needed at work.

blanch152

Carazy wrote: »

With crèche staff at work still has there been any outbreaks there in the past while. The level of contact would be somewhat similar to the SEN student situation.

It is not featuring as an issue in the daily briefings from Holohan.

It probably explains why he is saying schools are safe.

khalessi

Carazy wrote: »

With crèche staff at work still has there been any outbreaks there in the past while. The level of contact would be somewhat similar to the SEN student situation.

Yes there have been, one creche was closed last week that was on news. And a friend is a creche manager and said this time is different to last summer as kids getting sick and passing it on to staff, she has multiple staff off at the moment

Smacruairi

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

Implying they do the entirety of their work by phone and are less deserving of a vaccine perhaps...

No, I equated someone not in direct contact with a disease, like a secretary, with an SNA who potentially is in direct contact. Everything else was your own projection, naturally.

penny piper

Mrsmum wrote: »

But the other poster wasn't saying what you're saying in the first paragraph which has a certain logic to it. Instead of saying how can these parents expect teachers back currently, what was said was how could a mother send her own child into unsafe conditions. Who are we, who are not in those circumstances,to say we know better than that mother what's best for her child.
Regarding the doctor having childcare, obviously it's so she can go to work. It's a bit strange to regard her as uppity because she is using childcare. So are tons of employees who are needed at work.

Regarding the doctor....I was not implying she was "uppity...but if you have extra childcare...she's obviously not in the same situation as a parent with no added childcare...

We all presume to know what's best for our children but it's not just about the children in this case it's about the staff ...sna's teachers .....

khalessi

Anything4883 wrote: »

Im not comparing jobs..... Im saying, if nurses took the same approach, that they dont want to go into their place of work because they didnt feel safe.... where would we be?

And dont try and convince me that Tecahers teaching online is the same as school classroom teaching.

Anything4883 wrote: »

And again... I will ask, If Nurses , or People working Creches or people working in supermarkets etc took the same attitude as Teachers.......... They dont feel safe , so they wont go into work...... Where would we be?

I answered your question which was about nurses, now youre not happy so moving goal posts. You can't ask something again if you didnt ask it in first place.

But to answer you creche workers and shop workers are entitled to go sick, if there is a safety issue. Shops can and have changed to click and collect or order online the collect or deliver lessening risks for shop workers, indeed many have.

So we woudl probably have more people at home similar to last March, many working from home and lower case numbers.

I can teach from home, I cannot nurse from home, see previous joke thanks for your input.

wirelessdude01

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

I don't think it's even as sophisticated as that. She's stuck in the 1980's and sincerely believes in the leaving cert tradition.

Meanwhile Michael Martin wants it reimagined. Right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.

WicklaBlaa

Smacruairi wrote: »

No, I equated someone not in direct contact with a disease, like a secretary, with an SNA who potentially is in direct contact. Everything else was your own projection, naturally.

They are in contact with patients and colleauges, nurses and doctors. It's the highest risk environment.

You said secretaries on phones... as if that's all they do. It was dismissive of their work

wirelessdude01

Carazy wrote: »

With crèche staff at work still has there been any outbreaks there in the past while. The level of contact would be somewhat similar to the SEN student situation.

Creche near where I live is practically empty. People not sending their kids to it while the situation is as it is.

mirrorwall14

Can anyone tell me how FOI requests work? I would like a copy of the ministers schedule of meetings this week to verify her claims of consultation. I’d also love to request copies of the minutes of any meetings with unions. Is that even possible?

WicklaBlaa

khalessi wrote: »

I can teach from home, I cannot nurse from home, see previous joke thanks for your input.

Not all students can be taught remotely. Therefore, not all teachers are in a position to do the job they are paid for and should turn up for work. Like everyone else.

khalessi

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

Not all students can be taught remotely. Therefore, not all teachers are not in a position to do the job they are paid for and should turn up for work. Like everyone else.

Well I am teaching remotely successfully to my learning support students who if I had to go into work tomorrow to satisfy Norma, would have meant me working with one student and 28 going without me teaching them. Norma mouthed off without consulting teachers or understanding the role of special education teacher

Do you think that is right?

Windorah

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

Not all students can be taught remotely. Therefore, not all teachers are in a position to do the job they are paid for and should turn up for work. Like everyone else.

As a special school teacher I agree with you.

Smacruairi

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

Not all students can be taught remotely. Therefore, not all teachers are in a position to do the job they are paid for and should turn up for work. Like everyone else.

So what extra provisions did Josepha put in place for this scenario? If you search my post history from last summer you'll see that I pointed that out, but nothing from the DES, it was everyone in the building regardless and no exceptions.

We actually agree more than you think when you get passed your anti teacher spiel. You want different arrangements for different settings, so did we, but we were told no, you have to do everything the DES way. Now the DES have let kids down.

WicklaBlaa

khalessi wrote: »

Well I am teaching remotely successfully to my learning support students who if I had to go into work tomorrow to satisfy Norma, would have meant me working with one student and 28 going without me teaching them. Norma mouthed off without consulting teachers or understanding the role of special education teacher

Do you think that is right?

I'm glad it's working out for you and it sounds like you have a good handle on the situation.

Not all teachers and students are in the same boat unfortunately.

The Wordress

I was just thinking about whole situation and what has gone wrong since September in particular.

I do think the Department Of Education did build up a level of mistrust among school staff.

In my school, there were outbreaks of Covid where the classroom teacher or SNA were not classed as a close contacts of the infected child so still had to attend school and were not sent for a Covid test initially.

We also had a cluster in our schools and as per DES guidelines, our school was not closed for quarantine. This cluster had some serious consequences in the wider community.

We had another case where the SEN teacher heard of a case in his class through local hearsay and gossip only.

The Keep the Schools open at all costs has backfired on the government.

Also, it took a Global Pandemic for all of our SEN classes to get funding to get hot running water!!

At the end of the day, many people who are posting here don't really have any experience of working in special classes or know what has gone in schools in the last 4 months in particular.

None of us want to be off for long, only until the case numbers are reduced and the situation in hospitals improves and there is ICU capacity again.

I'm finding the whole situation draining.

Maybe the best thing to do with your time, is to lobby your TDs for better funding for the best resources and support for SEN children and their parents.

For example, our children in our Severe and Profound room only get respite very sporadically and they were left without it for a year recently. It's a lifeline for parents.

It would be a better use of typing and energy in the long run if you truly care for SEN children and their parents.

WicklaBlaa

Smacruairi wrote: »

We actually agree more than you think when you get passed your anti teacher spiel. You want different arrangements for different settings, so did we, but we were told no, you have to do everything the DES way. Now the DES have let kids down.

I'm not anti teacher, Im anti the moany minority who do not represent all teachers. It seems they will find a problem with every scenario and solution

A lot of teachers are working their socks off and I respect that. Hopping between teaching remotely and in classes is not easy. And is much improved this time round with no thanks to the Department, it's the teachers and principals being innovative.

The current situation is unfortunate but some path should be found to reopen for these students so teachers can do their jobs and students can learn and progress. Where there's a will....

khalessi

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

I'm glad it's working out for you and it sounds like you have a good handle on the situation.

Not all teachers and students are in the same boat unfortunately.

I agree and think there is no winning in this at the moment and the only thing we can really blame is Covid.

Nobody foresaw this and after last lockdown we asked Dept for help, it was not given. We came back in September and taught and it was weird how the abnormal situation became almost normal with the handwashing etc.

Then bamm huge case numbers and a virulent B117 version of virus, no one expected and CMO telling us it is a stark grave situation stay at home. Unreal the hits keep on coming.

miamee

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Can anyone tell me how FOI requests work? I would like a copy of the ministers schedule of meetings this week to verify her claims of consultation. I’d also love to request copies of the minutes of any meetings with unions. Is that even possible?

This might help you to get started: http://www.kenfoxe.com/

Smacruairi

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

And is much improved this time round with no thanks to the Department, it's the teachers and principals being innovative.

The current situation is unfortunate but some path should be found to reopen for these students so teachers can do their jobs and students can learn and progress. Where there's a will....

Agreed. But again, you've no idea how stifling it is to work with the DES who actually don't allow innovation. You literally have to do it their way. That's what you are kinda missing, but you're not at the coalface so that's OK.

A myriad number of solutions were all proposed last summer, none were accepted and it seems even filed away as a plan D.

I agree where there is a will, but a will does not make a virus disappear. We can magic up the money for PUP out of nowhere, but couldn't let schools decide for themselves the best way to handle this. You have schools in Leitrim with feck all cases who can open, and then you had claremorris which was riddled that needed to be shut down. Norma said no. Thst was it. That's the issue and it has been all along.

khalessi

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

I'm glad it's working out for you and it sounds like you have a good handle on the situation.

Not all teachers and students are in the same boat unfortunately.

I am thanks but you didnt answer my question. Do you think it is fair that I be taken away from 28 children on learning support to work with one or two children?