Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

Russman

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

Not all students can be taught remotely. Therefore, not all teachers are in a position to do the job they are paid for and should turn up for work. Like everyone else.

Does the employer not have a duty of care to provide a safe working environment ? Who gets to decide what safe is ?

I think we've (thankfully) long since passed the "you're being paid to do a job, now go do it" phase of development.

the corpo

1,820 deaths in the UK today. I really don't understand all the questions asking why we can't open up our schools like they have...

WicklaBlaa

Russman wrote: »

Does the employer not have a duty of care to provide a safe working environment ? Who gets to decide what safe is ?

I think we've (thankfully) long since passed the "you're being paid to do a job, now go do it" phase of development.

A completely safe environment in a pandemic just can't be provided for anyone unless youre working from home 100% of the time since March.

aigne

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

A completely safe environment in a pandemic just can't be provided for anyone unless youre working from home 100% of the time since March.

True, but one of the most frustrating things about schools is that measures were not taken to make them safer - co2 monitoring, ventilation, true mass testing, proper tracing of school outbreaks, provision of N95 masks etc etc etc

Russman

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

A completely safe environment in a pandemic just can't be provided for anyone unless youre working from home 100% of the time since March.

Then the logical thing is to wait (bad for the kids), or come to some agreed arrangement and agree an acceptable level of risk. To the outsider like myself it looks like the government simply tried to ram through the re-opening with little or no meaningful consultation with the other stakeholders. Norma simply repeating ad nauseum that schools are safe isn't consultation imo. The dogs on the street know that the levels of risk right now are way too high.

Honestly I don't know what the answer is in reality. Government have no good choices only different levels of sh1t ones. You can't send teachers in if its unsafe yet its absolutely awful for the kids to be off. I dunno if there's a middle ground to be found tbh.

tjhook

There's a constant message that schools (both special and non-special schools) are "safe". Without explanation that's meaningless. I haven't seen this explanation and without it it's difficult to trust. Logically, it must be either:

a. Children are far less likely than adults to get the virus
b. Children don't pass it on, even in crowded conditions with physical contact (e.g. special schools).

I've see no evidence suggesting either of these to be the case. I've seen credible statistics that on average children experience far milder symptoms, but this won't be the case for their family members and staff to whom they pass the virus. Does the safety of a school depend at all on the levels of COVID in society? How many daily cases would it take before indoor gatherings of people (staff and pupils) in a classroom would be considered unsafe?

Education can be delayed until things are safer. Unlike with hospitals or foodstores, society won't fall to pieces if schools are closed for a few weeks. The state has made it clear that schools are not critical by placing the education sector 11 out of 15 on the list to be vaccinated. By the way, number 9 is "People aged 18-64 living or working in crowded settings". Why in God's name was the education sector purposely excluded from that group?

Education can be caught up. Otherwise there wouldn't be holidays. If the difficulty is more about child care or respite for families, that's a separate understandable issue. But then people should be up-front about that being the concern. And the best solution may not be a classroom.

By the way, I'd generally be cynical of teacher unions, and I feel their frequent arguing about pay has made it easy to instinctively dismiss them. But that doesn't make them wrong about this topic.

completedit

Are people actually stupid or something? Those most ardently in support of lockdowns over the past year are the same people who are now up in arms about the closures of schools. Like everything, as long as it doesn't really impinge upon my life too much then we're happy to comply to on-going lockdowns and restrictions without any sympathy for those whose lives are up in the air and extremely damaged by the various hidden non-Covid related affects of successive lockdowns. However, once they are forced to have to marry their responsibility as parents with their workplace commitments, suddenly, Covid is no longer that much of a threat and teachers should like it and lump it and get back to work. It is outrageous cognitive dissonance.

Teachers are being treated as if their sole existence in life is that of teachers. They aren't at risk, nor are their families and this outrageous idea that schools can somehow be 'safe' while everywhere else is in lockdown due to the supposed, and given recent death and hospitalisation rates, blatant threat of the virus.

It's a few weeks in addition to the Christmas holidays. Maybe a month. The education and outcomes for children do not rest on a few weeks of missed school. Not in a first world country. How someone from Government has not come out and vocalised clearly and sternly that the closures are the result of the Covid situation deteriorating in a way we hadn't been envisioned back in September. It's absolutely disgraceful to be honest.

It's extremely unfair that parents are not being told to bear the responsibility and face up to the fact that this pandemic comes with huge disturbances, disruption and inconvenience for everyone. I'm not saying for these same people that Covid has not been restrictive or hard, but it has been bearable. Their lives could do with a bit of variety, but they're at the stage where they're rearing the kids, paying off the mortgage, focusing on career. They have other concerns so have been able to ride the Covid wave, while putting a bit aside. So far, they've been quite compliant and happy to trot out the 'all in this together' line while safe in the knowledge, once Covid has subsided, that they'll be in a stronger financial situation. All was rosy until god forbid the schools closed for a few extra weeks.

completedit

completedit wrote: »

Are people actually stupid or something? The same Covid lockdown enthusiasts are the same people now up in arms about the schools closing. Like everything, as long as it doesn't really impinge upon my life too much then we're happy to comply to on-going lockdowns and restrictions without any sympathy for those whose lives are up in the air and extremely damaged by the various hidden damages of the lockdowns. However, once they are forced to have to marry their responsibility as parents with their workplace commitments, suddenly, Covid is no longer that much of a threat and teachers should like it and lump it and get back to work. It is outrageous cognitive dissonance.

Teachers are being treated as if their sole existence in life is that of teachers. They aren't at risk, nor are their families and this outrageous idea that schools can somehow be 'safe' while everywhere else is in lockdown due to the supposed and given recent death and hospitalisation rates blatant threat of the virus.

It's a few weeks. maybe a month. The education and outcomes for children do not rest on a few weeks of missed school. Not in a first world country. How someone from Government is not coming out and being vocal that the closures are the result of the situation deteriorating in a way we hadn't been prepared for.

Even for those with autism or profound disability or any disability having the schools closed makes no difference?

For children with no disadvantage, a month off is not going to make a difference you are correct in that.

khalessi

For all those obsessed with the PUP

https://twitter.com/ClassActionNew1/status/1351931402967797760

KrustyUCC

completedit wrote: »

Are
It's a few weeks in addition to the Christmas holidays. Maybe a month. The education and outcomes for children do not rest on a few weeks of missed school. Not in a first world country. How someone from Government has not come out and vocalised clearly and sternly that the closures are the result of the Covid situation deteriorating in a way we hadn't been envisioned back in September. It's absolutely disgraceful

What's your definition of a few weeks?

The last time schools closed for this long they didn't reopen until August

downthemiddle

Russman wrote: »

Then the logical thing is to wait (bad for the kids), or come to some agreed arrangement and agree an acceptable level of risk. To the outsider like myself it looks like the government simply tried to ram through the re-opening with little or no meaningful consultation with the other stakeholders. Norma simply repeating ad nauseum that schools are safe isn't consultation imo. The dogs on the street know that the levels of risk right now are way too high.

Honestly I don't know what the answer is in reality. Government have no good choices only different levels of sh1t ones. You can't send teachers in if its unsafe yet its absolutely awful for the kids to be off. I dunno if there's a middle ground to be found tbh.

Excellent post. There is no solution. As a result it is much easier to play the blame game.
This morning was a microcosm of the problem. Josepha Madigan proved, yet again, that she is not fit for office. John Boyle stated that teachers would be in schools if they open on Thursday. Norma Foley, surprisingly, stated that schools are safe places. It begs the question why are the schools not open?

wirelessdude01

completedit wrote: »

Are people actually stupid or something? Those most ardently in support of lockdowns over the past year are the same people who are now up in arms about the closures of schools. Like everything, as long as it doesn't really impinge upon my life too much then we're happy to comply to on-going lockdowns and restrictions without any sympathy for those whose lives are up in the air and extremely damaged by the various hidden non-Covid related affects of successive lockdowns. However, once they are forced to have to marry their responsibility as parents with their workplace commitments, suddenly, Covid is no longer that much of a threat and teachers should like it and lump it and get back to work. It is outrageous cognitive dissonance.

Teachers are being treated as if their sole existence in life is that of teachers. They aren't at risk, nor are their families and this outrageous idea that schools can somehow be 'safe' while everywhere else is in lockdown due to the supposed, and given recent death and hospitalisation rates, blatant threat of the virus.

It's a few weeks in addition to the Christmas holidays. Maybe a month. The education and outcomes for children do not rest on a few weeks of missed school. Not in a first world country. How someone from Government has not come out and vocalised clearly and sternly that the closures are the result of the Covid situation deteriorating in a way we hadn't been envisioned back in September. It's absolutely disgraceful to be honest.

It's extremely unfair that parents are not being told to bear the responsibility and face up to the fact that this pandemic comes with huge disturbances, disruption and inconvenience for everyone. I'm not saying for these same people that Covid has not been restrictive or hard, but it has been bearable. Their lives could do with a bit of variety, but they're at the stage where they're rearing the kids, paying off the mortgage, focusing on career. They have other concerns so have been able to ride the Covid wave, while putting a bit aside. So far, they've been quite compliant and happy to trot out the 'all in this together' line while safe in the knowledge, once Covid has subsided, that they'll be in a stronger financial situation. All was rosy until god forbid the schools closed for a few extra weeks.

That is a pretty broad church but I really can't argue against much of what you typed.

WicklaBlaa

Russman wrote: »

Then the logical thing is to wait (bad for the kids), or come to some agreed arrangement and agree an acceptable level of risk. To the outsider like myself it looks like the government simply tried to ram through the re-opening with little or no meaningful consultation with the other stakeholders. Norma simply repeating ad nauseum that schools are safe isn't consultation imo. The dogs on the street know that the levels of risk right now are way too high.

Honestly I don't know what the answer is in reality. Government have no good choices only different levels of sh1t ones. You can't send teachers in if its unsafe yet its absolutely awful for the kids to be off. I dunno if there's a middle ground to be found tbh.

Yes it's all very disheartening.

khalessi

Russman wrote: »

Then the logical thing is to wait (bad for the kids), or come to some agreed arrangement and agree an acceptable level of risk. To the outsider like myself it looks like the government simply tried to ram through the re-opening with little or no meaningful consultation with the other stakeholders. Norma simply repeating ad nauseum that schools are safe isn't consultation imo. The dogs on the street know that the levels of risk right now are way too high.

Honestly I don't know what the answer is in reality. Government have no good choices only different levels of sh1t ones. You can't send teachers in if its unsafe yet its absolutely awful for the kids to be off. I dunno if there's a middle ground to be found tbh.

Excellent

Saw this and thought it applies to Norma
https://twitter.com/Orla_Hegarty/status/1351222752762621952

WicklaBlaa

Smacruairi wrote: »

Agreed. But again, you've no idea how stifling it is to work with the DES who actually don't allow innovation. You literally have to do it their way. That's what you are kinda missing, but you're not at the coalface so that's OK.

A myriad number of solutions were all proposed last summer, none were accepted and it seems even filed away as a plan D.

I agree where there is a will, but a will does not make a virus disappear. We can magic up the money for PUP out of nowhere, but couldn't let schools decide for themselves the best way to handle this. You have schools in Leitrim with feck all cases who can open, and then you had claremorris which was riddled that needed to be shut down. Norma said no. Thst was it. That's the issue and it has been all along.

Can see how some autonomy for schools within a high level framework would be helpful.

Hopefully some solutions can be found.

downthemiddle

For those who want to follow the example of NI.

https://www.donegaldaily.com/2021/01/20/military-deployed-to-northern-ireland-hospitals/

jimmytwotimes 2013

Niall Collins having a pop on Today FM this evening. Plenty Lord Farquaads sniping from the Convention Centre this weather.

Locotastic

Schools staff and unions played right into the government's hands on this one.

Relieved them of the responsibility of having to make tough decisions.

Now the government will be the ones who tried to get schools opened and the teachers and unions will be the ones who refused to cooperate.

JP100

Locotastic wrote: »

Schools staff an unions played right into the government's hands on this one.

Relieved them of the responsibility of having to make tough decisions.

Now the government will be the ones who tried to get schools opened and the teachers and unions will be the ones who refused to cooperate.

In you and Norma's head, yes. In lots of others, no.

threescompany

I posted earlier today with a question for those who agree & would like to see main stream schools partially reopen tomorrow for those receiving in class learning support. Please!! I’d really like to get an answer from someone active on this thread to try & convince me/ give me another perspective.


I’m talking about children who struggle with curriculum but absolutely no significant difficulties.

My question; ( or questions!)

How do you think the children will feel walking through the school gates tomorrow into a virtually empty school?
Obviously they will know that the vast majority of the peers are not in school due to their safety & the Danger of Covid. Will they be scared & worried about the virus as they know it’s obviously more serious? Will they feel marginalised? Will they feel like there is something drastically different with them that they can’t manage their learning at home? Will they look back in years to come & feel a real dent in their confidence.... they were always the minority dragged back to get the help....

Also to add, I have noticed from my class some of the weaker children are really engaging in my online interactive lessons . some of the more able children find the distance learning more of a challenge. They prefer the personal aspect of the classroom. We cannot generalise.
Anyway I’d love an opinion regarding the children’s perspective from all the people pushing for reopening!! Thank you!

Locotastic

threescompany wrote: »

I posted earlier today with a question for those who agree & would like to see main stream schools partially reopen tomorrow for those receiving in class learning support. Please!! I’d really like to get an answer from someone active on this thread to try & convince me/ give me another perspective.


I’m talking about children who struggle with curriculum but absolutely no significant difficulties.

My question; ( or questions!)

How do you think the children will feel walking through the school gates tomorrow into a virtually empty school?
Obviously they will know that the vast majority of the peers are not in school due to their safety & the Danger of Covid. Will they be scared & worried about the virus as they know it’s obviously more serious? Will they feel marginalised? Will they feel like there is something drastically different with them that they can’t manage their learning at home? Will they look back in years to come & feel a real dent in their confidence.... they were always the minority dragged back to get the help....

Also to add, I have noticed from my class some of the weaker children are really engaging in my online interactive lessons . some of the more able children find the distance learning more of a challenge. They prefer the personal aspect of the classroom. We cannot generalise.
Anyway I’d love an opinion regarding the children’s perspective from all the people pushing for reopening!! Thank you!

I don't know, maybe they will feel lucky that they got to go to school or maybe they'll be unhappy about having to go back.

I know if I told mine they were going back tomorrow they'd be delighted but not necessarily under those circumstances. I think they'd feel different about it if their friends weren't there.

Children might not even know the reasons why schools are closed as in safety concerns, more cases, deaths, different variants. Certainly for the younger ones it's just a repeat of what happened early last year and we're in lockdown again. They don't always question the why.

Personally mine hate homeschooling and are doing the bare minimum. They are not really motivated at the moment, they would definitely be learning better in school but I agree with schools staying closed right now.

I do hope that they open back up quickly and without any hassle when the numbers are improved.

Locotastic

JP100 wrote: »

In you and Norma's head, yes. In lots of others, no.

That's the way they'll spin it.

Smacruairi

Locotastic wrote: »

That's the way they'll spin it.

Look at all the comments under twitter, the journo, even here. No one is buying Norma or Josepha. Even today, when they came out against the unions, Madigan compares SNAs to mother and baby homes ensuring that's the headline and she has to apologise.

This is junior b hurling from this pair.

Locotastic

Smacruairi wrote: »

Look at all the comments under twitter, the journo, even here. No one is buying Norma or Josepha. Even today, when they came out against the unions, Madigan compares SNAs to mother and baby homes ensuring that's the headline and she has to apologise.

This is junior b hurling from this pair.

Yeah it sure is unbelievable, they need to employ some decent speech/script writers or something!! They aren't doing themselves any favours and have really caused the situation to escalate.

threescompany

Locotastic wrote: »

I don't know, maybe they will feel lucky that they got to go to school or maybe they'll be unhappy about having to go back.

I know if I told mine they were going back tomorrow they'd be delighted but not necessarily under those circumstances. I think they'd feel different about it if their friends weren't there.

Children might not even know the reasons why schools are closed as in safety concerns, more cases, deaths, different variants. Certainly for the younger ones it's just a repeat of what happened early last year and we're in lockdown again. They don't always question the why.

Personally mine hate homeschooling and are doing the bare minimum. They are not really motivated at the moment, they would definitely be learning better in school but I agree with schools staying closed right now.

I do hope that they open back up quickly and without any hassle when the numbers are improved.

Thanks for reply! Thinking about the kids I teach I believe they’d know (9 years). There’s been a stark change in recent months. There’ll be 4 out of 21 kids in school. I think they’d definitely be asking why me? I genuinely feel it is marginalising these children and debating their confidence.... with the online support / resources packs being posted out ;( some schools) / books / support teachers making direct contact, etc, these children will cope fine for a month or even two.

wirelessdude01

Locotastic wrote: »

Yeah it sure is unbelievable, they need to employ some decent speech/script writers or something!! They aren't doing themselves any favours and have really caused the situation to escalate.

The press release from the DES last night was written in a fierce hurry and by someone who was raging. There were plenty of grammar mistakes in it. The two ministers need to taken out of the process for progress to be made.

dirkmeister

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

The press release from the DES last night was written in a fierce hurry and by someone who was raging. There were plenty of grammar mistakes in it. The two ministers need to taken out of the process for progress to be made.

Norma Foley’s letter to parents a couple of weeks back also contained spelling mistakes.

You’d imagine the Department of Education know how to spellcheck a Word document.

Either way, last night’s statement was extremely petty.

The blame game will solve nothing, and only gets people’s backs up.

They have wasted another day with stupid and needless comments.

downthemiddle

Friday night email incoming.

jimmytwotimes 2013

downthemiddle wrote: »

Friday night email incoming.

I can't sleep anymore on Friday nights without one.

dirkmeister

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Niall Collins having a pop on Today FM this evening. Plenty Lord Farquaads sniping from the Convention Centre this weather.

Was it mentioned to him about the PPE grant?