Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

khalessi

https://twitter.com/MaryJ1979/status/1349104594689941505

am_zarathustra

I actually think you could staff and extended summer provision, it might give breathing room to parents who will need to use soemmof their annual leave in the next few weeks until this situation is under control. The extra summer schools last year ran well, we had plenty of volunteers happy to come in for a week or two. Travel will still be curtailed. The summer I'd imagine so a lot of younger staff might still be around too.

But I do agree that this is unlikely to be suggested as it's not a flashy headline, it's a safe and implementable piece of a puzzle that might give families at least some hope in planning. There is a point in this crisis where it has to fall at the department's door, the department of education hasn't been fit for purpose in years, we implement systems that dont work and fly in the face of research and then we croniclaally underfund the entire system. Special needs education in ireland is simply not where it needs to be to absorb a shock like this, teachers will do what they can (bang for your tax payers buck education in ireland is great value, we spend less than the oecd everage and perform solidly above it on all metrics before people start bashing the system) but they can't plug every hole. This one is too large

The schools didn't reopen because of the department, they are opened bacuase staff went in in August and ripped the place apart, built new panels, fixed outside benches, put hand sanitizer in every rooms, moved everything excess out of our learning environments, made one way system, put stickers all over the place, implemented time consuming health and safety protocols, had numerous conversation/interactions/almost fights with kids over mask, and handwshing and distancing. The department sent us too little money and no actual plans. Figure it out is the usual mantra from the mandarins. Staff in schools, with the best will in the world, cant cure a pandemic.

I'm already at work now, sitting at my desk since 9 this morning, I'm behind in videos and correcting because me, and a chunk of our staff, spent all week sorting books, ordering papers and delivering these and food to kids doors, in between live classes and setting assignments. If you think I would't rather go back to school you are mad, it's so much more work. I've already spent a couple of hundred upgrading my equipment for remote learning, I don't have a device from the school so I use my own. That will also need replacing. I've already been responding to emails from kids today. But the reality is all of this is necessary because it is not safe to go back to school so we will continues to do our best with very few resources provided and almost no guidance, as per usual

Bananaleaf

It seems to me that this plan aims to cater for those who have extreme needs in general, not specifically extreme educational needs (although that may be part of it)

Surely the clamour to get these children back into school buildings can't be because, despite their great level of need, the only thing that has been afforded to them by the state are a couple of SET hours in their school?

Surely, their development doesnt hinge on this and this alone and instead there is a continuum of support around them, no?

zeebre12

I can't see things changing regarding going back Thursday. Even on this thread it isn't getting much traction. Compared to the backlash with the LC this isn't getting much coverage.

daheff

Crocodile Booze wrote: »

Lol.

Evidence : Covid. Pandemic. Schools closed.

You think the powers that be are all wrong and you're right?

Good one.

I think you have this the wrong way around. I'm agreeing with the government and their scientists.

It's the unions that are disagreeing.

khalessi

Interesting Norma could not produce evidence schools are safe when asked

https://twitter.com/GaryGannonTD/status/1349763620931043332

Locotastic

Crocodile Booze wrote: »

Lol.

Evidence : Covid. Pandemic. Schools closed.

You think the powers that be are all wrong and you're right?

Good one.

So when 'the powers that be' tell schools to open back up in a few weeks will they be wrong then? Because they are either right or wrong or you can be selective.

Icyseanfitz

Birdy wrote: »

I don't know any SNA's whereby childcare would be a problem. It's laughable if that is the best Fórsa can come up with.

The reality is they cannot do their job remotely and they get plenty of holidays as it is. Go back or take sick leave. Simple as.

Bs, me and my wife are currently working fully remote with all our students

khalessi

Locotastic wrote: »

So when 'the powers that be' tell schools to open back up in a few weeks will they be wrong then? Because they are either right or wrong or you can be selective.

As gets said here alot when teacher make points a few weeks can make a difference we will see how numbers are then. Thank you for your interest

Murple

khalessi wrote: »

https://twitter.com/MaryJ1979/status/1349104594689941505

This echoes the information I posted here a number of days ago

“In the week to 9 January, there were 18 private house/family outbreaks and just two private house/general outbreaks.

It compares with 624 private house/family outbreaks seven weeks ago.”

The main difference between the week to the 9th of January and the end of November which would be 7 weeks before the article is schools. Open at end of November, closed for 2 weeks by the 9th of January.

Beasty

khalessi wrote: »

Interesting Norma could not produce evidence schools are safe when asked

I do not think anyone can say anywhere is "safe" as that would be a statement of "fact" when safety is never a black and white matter. I have little doubt schools are "safer" than many other environments, including the likes of food production establishments, and some retail premises. It seems quite clear to me that transmission in school is generally lower and less dangerous than many other establishments. Does that make it safe? Absolutely not - a single transmission would be held up to claim the minister was "lying". Are the risks acceptable? - that's a completely different question

Natterjack from Kerry

daheff wrote: »

So you admit then you don't have any evidence that schools are not safe?

This thinking is over simplistic and betrays a lack of understanding and biased reading of the situation that is being employed by unions.

'Safe' is not a black and white issue. The question is whether teachers are putting themselves at a risk that is similar or lower than many other sectors of the working world, and whether the importance of them carrying out their work justifies that risk. In the opinion of all, and backed by all knowledgeable specialist expertise, the answer is that it is.

The ill informed analysis from teachers is akin to the opposite bias from the pub trade (guess which sectors workers are losing money by not working, and which ones have to income at stake no matter what), claiming there is no evidence of covid transmission in pubs, so they should be opened.

But teacher unions mindsets are unable to move from decades of acquired bad culture and selfishness, and are 'protecting their members' without recognition to their responsibilities to society in general, and adapting their response in the light of a once in a century crisis.
It is disgusting to the rest of society, and blaming a minister for stonewalling unions is nonsense.

khalessi

Beasty wrote: »

I do not think anyone can say anywhere is "safe" as that would be a statement of "fact" when safety is never a black and white matter. I have little doubt schools are "safer" than many other environments, including the likes of food production establishments, and some retail premises. It seems quite clear to me that transmission in school is generally lower and less dangerous than many other establishments. Does that make it safe? Absolutely not - a single transmission would be held up to claim the minister was "lying". Are the risks acceptable? - that's a completely different question

We have a new varient to deal with which is more virulent in younger aged children anod no assessment done for that. Nobody is asking for 100% safe but it is uneccesary for schools to be open in a pandemic, CMO even said at this time of high transmission in community schools should remain closed. Closed is not letting in the more vunerable, to test the waters for reopening.

Murple

“A consultant in infectious diseases has said keeping community transmission of Covid-19 low will be key to reducing the risk within schools.

Dr Paddy Mallon, from St Vincent's Hospital in Dublin and a Professor of Microbial Diseases at UCD, said "low community transmission means there is less chance of cases getting into schools in the first place".“

This is from an article dated the 25th of August. If you remember what the clear message was then, from every health expert and politician, it was that for schools to reopen safely, community transmission needed to be low.
Now it’s just “schools are safe”.
We still have over 3,000 cases being reported every day and not all close contacts are being tested. Actual numbers are likely to be much higher.
So many people have commented that up to now, they didn’t know of anyone who had Covid but in this wave, many know multiple people affected, or should that be infected.
There are very high levels of Covid in the community. But schools are safe.
One wonders why the Dail can’t be run on the same magical guidelines as schools so that they wouldn’t need to use the Convention Centre any more.

Sammy2012

I want to go back to school as I don't like the online stuff and found this week very stressful but in the interest of the rest of the economy would we not be better to try get cases down and get track and trace back working before we go back in to school. Transmission levels are still very high so no doubt will increase again once schools are open.

khalessi

It is interesting that one group with additional needs are being pitted against another for this. You do realise that children who receive Learning Support for Maths English Dyslexia, Dyspraxia etc will have the support stopped to facilitate this.

These kids already suffer enough due to staff shortages in schools, caused by years of no investment in schools. So everytime a teacher is sick SET pulled to cover and these children miss out on support.

Now I am being told my 28 children will not be getting help from me

Sammy2012

khalessi wrote: »

It is interesting that one group with additional needs are being pitted against another for this. You do realise that children who receive Learning Support for Maths English Dyslexia, Dyspraxia etc will have the support stopped to facilitate this.

These kids already suffer enough due to staff shortages in schools, caused by years of no investment in schools. So everytime a teacher is sick SET pulled to cover and these children miss out on support.

Now I am being told my 28 children will not be getting help from me

What is the criteria for mainstream kids to access this plan? Would some kids with a diagnosis of dyslexia not be eligible for this?

Murple

Sammy2012 wrote: »

I want to go back to school as I don't like the online stuff and found this week very stressful but in the interest of the rest of the economy would we not be better to try get cases down and get track and trace back working before we go back in to school. Transmission levels are still very high so no doubt will increase again once schools are open.

My feelings exactly. I want schools open and to be able to work with a manageable level of anxiety around case numbers etc. Going back when there are 3,500 cases or so being reported each day as well as ICU being close to capacity countrywide doesn’t facilitate that in any way, shape or form. The experience of the principal in Claremorris has also severely dented any confidence that many teachers had in HSE or Department of Ed officials to deal with an outbreak properly.

Sammy2012

Murple wrote: »

My feelings exactly. I want schools open and to be able to work with a manageable level of anxiety around case numbers etc. Going back when there are 3,500 cases or so being reported each day as well as ICU being close to capacity countrywide doesn’t facilitate that in any way, shape or form. The experience of the principal in Claremorris has also severely dented any confidence that many teachers had in HSE or Department of Ed officials to deal with an outbreak properly.

They have no interest in dealing with anything as far as I'm concerned. For god sake you can hardly get a stamped salary cert of them at the moment because they are all working from home. But when we go back I want to go back for good. Not another week or 2 in school and then have to close again because numbers are rising and unsustainable again. I understand some families are struggling and something should be able to do but I know some children who haven't received speech therapy in person since March!! All on zoom. Where is the outcry over these services being cut??

khalessi

Sammy2012 wrote: »

What is the criteria for mainstream kids to access this plan? Would some kids with a diagnosis of dyslexia not be eligible for this?

Children with dyslexia only recently were granted learning support. So they are granted time with a learning support teacher not a resource teacher. In the old model Special Education Team split into 2 parts learning support kids with Maths and ENglish difficulties and recently dyslexia and then kids with a diagnosis such as autism or down syndrome who were granted a set a mount of hours per week.

This has changed with new model.

Criteria would be the whole area of school support plans and what level they are on all here https://www.education.ie/en/Schools-Colleges/Services/National-Educational-Psychological-Service-NEPS-/neps_special_needs_guidelines.pdf

Classroom Support is an intervention process coordinated by the class teacher and carried out within the regular classroom.

School Support is an assessment and intervention process which is usually co-ordinated by the learning support / resource teacher working alongside the class teacher. Interventions at this stage will be additional to those provided through classroom support.

School Support Plus is generally characterised by the school requesting the involvement of relevant external services in more detailed assessment and development of intervention programmes.This level of intervention is forchildren with complex and/or enduring needs and whose progress is considered inadequate despite carefully planned interventions at the
previous levels.


So this criteria will have to be gone through but have heard that should this go ahead kids with learning support will be ssigned work by class teacher which is what they have already

IIRC this continum of support was written before people with dyslexia give learning support and school support plus is what the schools would be opeing for

wirelessdude01

beggars_bush wrote: »

INTO will get a barrage of emails over the weekend from members

As I told SET in my school, by all means email HQ but most importantly also email our CEC rep directly. CEC reps cannot ignore what they are being told directly and inturn HQ cannot ignore what they are being told from around the country. No point crying after the fact.

tjhook

Beasty wrote: »

I have little doubt schools are "safer" than many other environments, including the likes of food production establishments, and some retail premises. It seems quite clear to me that transmission in school is generally lower and less dangerous than many other establishments.

I don't think even that is black and white, depending on the type of school.

In the special schools (which are to be the first to open), there would be a high degree of challenging behaviour including physical assaults and masks being pulled off staff members. And even at those times when there is no challenging behaviour, part of the job description includes assisting the pupils with toileting etc. It's a very different situation to standing at the top of a class teaching.

I'd consider it to be closer to the work undertaken in care homes as opposed to something like retail.

wirelessdude01

antgal23 wrote: »

As a special needs teacher and parent of 4 kids, if the schools are safe then open them

You forgot the word fully. If they are safe then fully open everything.

beggars_bush

Probably June

selectamatic

Beasty wrote: »

I do not think anyone can say anywhere is "safe" as that would be a statement of "fact" when safety is never a black and white matter. I have little doubt schools are "safer" than many other environments, including the likes of food production establishments, and some retail premises. It seems quite clear to me that transmission in school is generally lower and less dangerous than many other establishments. Does that make it safe? Absolutely not - a single transmission would be held up to claim the minister was "lying". Are the risks acceptable? - that's a completely different question

To me it seems obvious that it's entirely linked to the local community. Kids by in large do not travel far outside their local community each day. If a large percentage of their parents are working from home or working in an industry where face to face contact has been cut way back opportunities for the virus to break into the local community and spread are greatly reduced. If not the risks are somewhat hightened.

The issues arrive when covid breaks into this local community "bubble" if you will. When this occurs the safety of schools in the locality drops considerably. As was seen with some large outbreaks which were driven initially by other industries but then the activity within the local communities took over and drove the spread on further, like what happened in Claremorris before the Christmas.

wirelessdude01

khalessi wrote: »

It is interesting that one group with additional needs are being pitted against another for this. You do realise that children who receive Learning Support for Maths English Dyslexia, Dyspraxia etc will have the support stopped to facilitate this.

These kids already suffer enough due to staff shortages in schools, caused by years of no investment in schools. So everytime a teacher is sick SET pulled to cover and these children miss out on support.

Now I am being told my 28 children will not be getting help from me

A conveniently ignored outcome as it does not suit the story that Norma and Josepha want to present. Discomode one group to gain some media headlines an "up yours" to those pesky unions/teachers.

downthemiddle

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

A conveniently ignored outcome as it does not suit the story that Norma and Josepha want to present. Discomode one group to gain some media headlines an "up yours" to those pesky unions/teachers.

This move is ill conceived, solely for the purpose of political capital. This is to do with optics and not going to show any meaningful benefits to the children. In fact it will in many cases prove to be damaging to the children. Bringing a cohort of children back seven days early is a political move attempting to create an illusion that the DES has a plan for children with additional needs.
Many mainstream schools have spent years creating an inclusive environment. Children with needs have been successfully integrated into mainstream settings. Now schools are being asked to shine a spotlight on these children and identify them as being different to their peers. Quite a number of children would be unaware that they have a diagnosis of any kind. Their peers would be unaware. Now schools are being asked to bring a small number of children into the building and create differences that didn’t previously exist.
Yet another inclusion illusion from the DES.

CruelSummer

I want schools reopened but dropping this on Principal's and Teacher's late on a Friday night is so disrespectful and certainly erodes any goodwill that has been there on the part of teachers during this Pandemic.
A few points from this 'hair brained' plan that needs tackling at the Webinar:
1. Are children who usually attend resource daily supposed to sit in school all day with very few of their peers and complete the assigned classwork as well as Resource? Could children attend for 2-3 hours per day instead of sitting in a deserted building for 6 hours with none of their peers?
2. How is it suddenly ok to mix bubbles/pods/groups willy nilly? It's different allowing this in July when cases are low and hospitals are empty.
3. Has anyone thought of the children in this instance? None of them will want to go in while their peers remain at home - it's going to be very unsettling to them - particularly for ASD children and children with emotional regulation issues. Why me and not everyone else? The only way this will work is to shorten the school day and lessen the blow.
4. Shared resource posts - are SET teachers supposed to expose themselves to two/three different sets of children in different schools?
5. Suddenly contacts for SET teachers / SNA's and childcare will go way up. Arranging cover for teacher's children - who may now miss thier own home school, to attend work and possibly 2/3 places of work in a week where the post is shared.
5. Does childcare even matter to the Department? Especially if school insurers won't let you bring your own children on site. This is ridiculous.

jimmytwotimes 2013

On general reopening, caution is required given the new strains of covid weren't as prevalent when the schools were open before Xmas.

Taoiseach seemed to have a cautious tone on news @17.30 yesterday.

"There can be no guarantees about anything, given the current transmission in the community, and given the significant complication… of mutations."

Possible game-changers so quoting data from Sept-Dec not entirely relevant.

Murple

On the issue of shared SET, does the shared SET travel between several schools in one day, giving each child/group an hour or so? So other schools will be expected to keep the relevant pupils all day while schools with shared SET will only be able to ‘offer’ the normal SET timetable.