Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) Mod warning in OP 22/01

Birdy · 16-01-2021 01:32AM

downthemiddle wrote: »

You are the person denigrating others. Mind you don't fall off that high horse.

I say it as I see it.

I don't feel I have criticised anyone unfairly.

I don't appreciate the personal attacks. We are here to discuss the educational needs of children during a pandemic. Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures.

16-01-2021 01:33AM

I'm delighted. SET who, like 99% of teachers, doesn't enjoy zoom. Luckily, childcare isn't an issue as my wife is wfh. It will be tough for SETs who don"t have that luxury, but it's tough for many professions, and I'm looking forward to meeting the kids again.

Birdy · 16-01-2021 01:33AM

Bananaleaf wrote: »

@amacca - you are 100% right in what you say

@Birdy - with respect, it is incorrect to say that this plan has nothing to do with post-primary. They closed the primary schools and then came the closing of the secondary schools. They agreed to reopen the primary schools to SEN students and are now in talks about what to do at second level. This plan has potentially got
very much got to do with post-primary.

At the moment it has nothing to do with post primary.

downthemiddle · 16-01-2021 01:38AM

Birdy wrote: »

I say it as I see it.

I don't feel I have criticised anyone unfairly.

I don't appreciate the personal attacks. We are here to discuss the educational needs of children during a pandemic. Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures.

It also calls for a little respect for a whole cohort of workers, something you clearly lack. SNAs play an invaluable role in our education system. Children who once were excluded from education are now afforded an opportunity through the work they do, work that you clearly do not appreciate.

If you feel I have attacked you personally there is a report button.

Bananaleaf · 16-01-2021 01:40AM

Birdy wrote: »

At the moment it has nothing to do with post primary.

So we should just wait and see if it becomes a problem and only then discuss it?

The Wordress · 16-01-2021 01:41AM

This plan is not set in stone yet as Forsa have not yet agreed to it.

At least their members get their money's worth.

Birdy · 16-01-2021 01:43AM

Bananaleaf wrote: »

So we should just wait and see if it becomes a problem and only then discuss it?

Well that would be the sensible thing to do don't you think. If second level are coming back, it'll be the Leaving Certs imo.

Bananaleaf · 16-01-2021 01:52AM

Birdy wrote: »

Well that would be the sensible thing to do don't you think. If second level are coming back, it'll be the Leaving Certs imo.

"wait and see" and "sensible" are not two words or phrases I would put together in a sentence when talking in the context of an "extraordinary national crisis" to be honest.

If second-level SET teachers, seeing what is unfolding at primary level, are already starting to think about how this might affect them and are coming onto a discussion board to thrash it out - now that is sensible. They've done more in the way of forward planning than our government has, so I personally won't be saying fair play to Norma Foley myself.

Birdy · 16-01-2021 01:58AM

Bananaleaf wrote: »

"wait and see" and "sensible" are not two words or phrases I would put together in a sentence when talking in the context of an "extraordinary national crisis" to be honest.

If second-level SET teachers, seeing what is unfolding at primary level, are already starting to think about how this might affect them and are coming onto a discussion board to thrash it out - now that is sensible. They've done more in the way of forward planning than our government has, so I personally won't be saying fair play to Norma Foley myself.

The guidance has been issued for next Thursday. It doesn't include post primary. You can rest easy.

Bananaleaf · 16-01-2021 02:00AM

Birdy wrote: »

The guidance has been issued for next Thursday. It doesn't include post primary. You can rest easy.

It actually doesn't upset me whether it does or doesn't include post-primary. I don't have children and if I have to return to school as a member of the SET team I am more than happy to do so.

But I just don't see what the problem is with people discussing and speculating on it.

Murple · 16-01-2021 02:04AM

Birdy wrote: »

Norma has been liaising with the relevant organisations. She recognises the effect that the first lockdown had on these children with additional needs. I say fair play to her.

Some teachers wouldn't have returned in September if they had her way.

Some parents are at the end of their tether.

Yeah she cares so much about children with additional needs that SETs were on the subs bench in the plan for reopening schools. Not only were they on the subs bench but they were also offered up to provide remote teaching for any pupil that had to stay off school due to be high risk which would have meant less support for the children with additional needs on the teachers caseload.
She cares so much about the effect the first lockdown had on these children that she didn’t put in a single additional support for schools to provide additional teaching support for them when schools reopened.
She cares so much about these children that most schools didn’t have a single visit from NEPS, let alone an assessment carried out.
She cares so much about these children that she didn’t put in any provision for carried over NEPS assessment to be done in addition to those granted last year. We get 3 assessments per year. Last school year only one of them was done by the time schools closed. This year we were offered 3 assessments, 2 of which have been taken by those that missed their assessments last year.

Ten of Swords · 16-01-2021 02:11AM

Cerveza wrote: »

She has a nice fringe.

Cerveza wrote: »

She needed time to perfect her fringe, granted was a long time.

Cerveza wrote: »

Yes L’Oréal is worth it.

Cerveza wrote: »

That explains the perfect hair.

Give it a rest, any more of this and it'll be a threadban

tjhook · 16-01-2021 02:14AM

I wasn't impressed at how there was a push to extend almost every school holiday in 2020. But it's different now, with the covid numbers being so high here. All the more so in special-needs schools where the constant physical contact between children and staff makes distancing a fantasy. Yet they're the very schools that are being opened first.

Schools aren't as essential as hospitals - it's possible to "catch up" on time lost in education. It's not possible to bring back the people who will die as a result of the additional contact in classrooms between members of thousands of households.

It just seems reckless when we're so close to having the whole country vaccinated.

Birdy · 16-01-2021 02:23AM

Murple wrote: »

Yeah she cares so much about children with additional needs that SETs were on the subs bench in the plan for reopening schools. Not only were they on the subs bench but they were also offered up to provide remote teaching for any pupil that had to stay off school due to be high risk which would have meant less support for the children with additional needs on the teachers caseload.
She cares so much about the effect the first lockdown had on these children that she didn’t put in a single additional support for schools to provide additional teaching support for them when schools reopened.
She cares so much about these children that most schools didn’t have a single visit from NEPS, let alone an assessment carried out.
She cares so much about these children that she didn’t put in any provision for carried over NEPS assessment to be done in addition to those granted last year. We get 3 assessments per year. Last school year only one of them was done by the time schools closed. This year we were offered 3 assessments, 2 of which have been taken by those that missed their assessments last year.

Yeah the subs bench. Many didn't need to be utilised thanks to the sub panels that were engendered. All SETs haven't been used as normal since September to limit their contacts.

What exactly did you want her to provide for them?

There are a lack of educational psychologists. It is a wider issue that has nothing to do with the pandemic but keep clutching at straws if you must.

Midnight Sundance · 16-01-2021 02:30AM

khalessi wrote: »

Yeah and they spent pages here giving out, a couple of hours of teachers mentioning it tonight and people are in laying down the law, telling us what to say. So it is ok for other people to come oon here and complain about lack of childcare but not teachers wow!!!

I'm not saying teachers shouldn't complain about it but there are far more concerning reasons that this plan is not workable and they should be raised first . We have had enough teacher bashing as it is and we don't need to hand them a stick in which to beat us with.

Locotastic · 16-01-2021 02:36AM

tjhook wrote: »

It just seems reckless when we're so close to having the whole country vaccinated.

Not close at all unfortunately and won't be any time in 2021.

tjhook · 16-01-2021 03:02AM

Locotastic wrote: »

Not close at all unfortunately and won't be any time in 2021.

All I can go on is what I read, which is that it's expected that 700,000 people will get their two doses by March, a further 1.8 million people by June, and a further 1.9 million by September.

There could be slippage, but if there is and if it's significant, there'll be hell to pay. So I'm sure minds will be focused.

The Wordress · 16-01-2021 09:00AM

tjhook wrote: »

I wasn't impressed at how there was a push to extend almost every school holiday in 2020. But it's different now, with the covid numbers being so high here. All the more so in special-needs schools where the constant physical contact between children and staff makes distancing a fantasy. Yet they're the very schools that are being opened first.

Schools aren't as essential as hospitals - it's possible to "catch up" on time lost in education. It's not possible to bring back the people who will die as a result of the additional contact in classrooms between members of thousands of households.

It just seems reckless when we're so close to having the whole country vaccinated.

One idea I was thinking...as a goodwill gesture to parents of special needs children, they could extend the Summer School Programme this year to 8 weeks, instead of 4.

At least by then, there will be a lot more people vaccinated and the infection numbers will hopefully be much lower.

Also, it would be easier to go outside in the summer. Instead of being cooped up in the same room for hours on end, as it stands now.

khalessi · 16-01-2021 09:42AM

The Wordress wrote: »

One idea I was thinking...as a goodwill gesture to parents of special needs children, they could extend the Summer School Programme this year to 8 weeks, instead of 4.

At least by then, there will be a lot more people vaccinated and the infection numbers will hopefully be much lower.

Also, it would be easier to go outside in the summer. Instead of being cooped up in the same room for hours on end, as it stands now.

Would be a nice gesture but would not get Norma her win

wirelessdude01 · 16-01-2021 09:45AM

The Wordress wrote: »

One idea I was thinking...as a goodwill gesture to parents of special needs children, they could extend the Summer School Programme this year to 8 weeks, instead of 4.

At least by then, there will be a lot more people vaccinated and the infection numbers will hopefully be much lower.

Also, it would be easier to go outside in the summer. Instead of being cooped up in the same room for hours on end, as it stands now.

Who would be able to claim credit for it, Norma or Josepha?

beggars_bush · 16-01-2021 09:55AM

The Wordress wrote: »

One idea I was thinking...as a goodwill gesture to parents of special needs children, they could extend the Summer School Programme this year to 8 weeks, instead of 4.

At least by then, there will be a lot more people vaccinated and the infection numbers will hopefully be much lower.

Also, it would be easier to go outside in the summer. Instead of being cooped up in the same room for hours on end, as it stands now.

You need staff for that. I doubt most would make themselves available

the kelt · 16-01-2021 10:02AM

Birdy wrote: »

I don't know any SNA's whereby childcare would be a problem. It's laughable if that is the best Fórsa can come up with.

The reality is they cannot do their job remotely and they get plenty of holidays as it is. Go back or take sick leave. Simple as.

I don’t know of any so they mustn’t exist, lol what logic!

I don’t know any people from Mexico but believe a couple of million of them exist.

amacca · 16-01-2021 10:07AM

Bananaleaf wrote: »

It actually doesn't upset me whether it does or doesn't include post-primary. I don't have children and if I have to return to school as a member of the SET team I am more than happy to do so.

But I just don't see what the problem is with people discussing and speculating on it.

It seems any discussion/speculation that's not 100% positive of this move or asks any questions is met with brusque dismissive replies from that poster

It's as good as Norma could do, therefore no flaws with this plan, no point questioning motives based on past actions, nothing to see here move on. How dare you speculate or question this decision or even wonder what implications it might have......it reminds me of something.........

Anyway your function is to get in line and don't dare think about this decision :pac:pac:

Natterjack from Kerry · 16-01-2021 10:08AM

khalessi wrote: »

Would be a nice gesture but would not get Norma her win

Its hard to see how anyone could do it really. The minister is making a great effort to be fair, and that is to her credit.

Education really is another Angola, but less prominent generally. Covid has brought the problem of its sclerotic, exploitative, and disfunctional unions to the fore - they are institutions without morality who still regard any means justifying the end if it is to their benefit. Larissa Nolan has a good piece on it in the Independent today. https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/it-took-the-parents-of-special-needs-kids-to-stand-up-to-the-unions-39974504.html

The backwardness of the sector has made it the great failure of the Corona crisis in Ireland. I am sure some teachers are ashamed to be associated with it, but not optimistic that the problematic culture will change any time soon.

khalessi · 16-01-2021 10:18AM

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Its hard to see how anyone could do it really. The minister is making a great effort to be fair, and that is to her credit.

Education really is another Angola, but less prominent generally. Covid has brought the problem of its sclerotic, exploitative, and disfunctional unions to the fore - they are institutions without morality who still regard any means justifying the end if it is to their benefit. Larissa Nolan has a good piece on it in the Independent today. https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/it-took-the-parents-of-special-needs-kids-to-stand-up-to-the-unions-39974504.html

The backwardness of the sector has made it the great failure of the Corona crisis in Ireland. I am sure some teachers are ashamed to be associated with it, but not optimistic that the problematic culture will change any time soon.

To be fair she is not making a great effort. She can never be found. She went on a solo run last week to reopen schools for LC without consulting Tanaiste, Taoiseach or NPHet.

She says she consulted with unions, well if turning up 1 hour late and staying 5 minutes is consutation then I suppose she did.

She is responsible for 40% budget cut in cleaning products for this term which was announced 23rd December before they knew of B117 varient.

Provisions for enhanced safety measures were promised last midterm, I have never seen any change on the coalface.

She shows nothing but contempt towards school staff

No enhanced measures now either, and this is just off the top of my head

She announces these measures in the media and not to teachers first. Also never announced to give time to get adequate measures in place, constant uneccesary scrambling

So no I would regard it as poor effort and an extremely poor effort at that.

mirrorwall14 · 16-01-2021 10:24AM

For once, I would like to see the media actually get into the nitty gritty of this plan. Because for me, the most stand out thing is that this is not schools opening as places of education. This is schools opening as babysitting. The breaking of bubbles, the creation of group of high level of need students from all age groups means this is literally an exercise in crowd control. Schools face huge challenges in making this work particularly when SET is shared between schools. Are they going to mix students from different schools? All other mainstream classes and low need students will lose support because all SET and SNAs are being pulled to provide childcare. Apparently they even state that they won’t be doing their curriculum so what exact academic benefit is this to them?

I mean maybe if they acknowledged that like in the U.K. and facilitated those students to log into their own classes it might actually get some support? But this is going to just result in parents bashing teachers in my opinion.

Sammy2012 · 16-01-2021 10:25AM

My principal has been in touch and wants to make a plan for the return next week. I have no children in my class on SSPP so does that mean that I have no child in my room eligible? I have all 25 children in my class interacting with me on seesaw and 24 attending zoom calls. Just wondering what to say? I wouldnt be bit happy to have my own children returning to school next week but not sure if parents in my class feel the same.

wirelessdude01 · 16-01-2021 10:27AM

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Its hard to see how anyone could do it really. The minister is making a great effort to be fair, and that is to her credit.

Education really is another Angola, but less prominent generally. Covid has brought the problem of its sclerotic, exploitative, and disfunctional unions to the fore - they are institutions without morality who still regard any means justifying the end if it is to their benefit. Larissa Nolan has a good piece on it in the Independent today. https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/it-took-the-parents-of-special-needs-kids-to-stand-up-to-the-unions-39974504.html

The backwardness of the sector has made it the great failure of the Corona crisis in Ireland. I am sure some teachers are ashamed to be associated with it, but not optimistic that the problematic culture will change any time soon.

Well now that you bring up ashamed. I'm ashamed that someone who was a teacher this time last year thinks that it is okay to make public announcements with regards to things that aren't a done deal. Thinks it is okay to push through half baked ideas. I'm ashamed that I once shared a profession with someone that thinks like Norma Foley.

mirrorwall14 · 16-01-2021 10:32AM

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Its hard to see how anyone could do it really. The minister is making a great effort to be fair, and that is to her credit.

Education really is another Angola, but less prominent generally. Covid has brought the problem of its sclerotic, exploitative, and disfunctional unions to the fore - they are institutions without morality who still regard any means justifying the end if it is to their benefit. Larissa Nolan has a good piece on it in the Independent today. https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/it-took-the-parents-of-special-needs-kids-to-stand-up-to-the-unions-39974504.html

The backwardness of the sector has made it the great failure of the Corona crisis in Ireland. I am sure some teachers are ashamed to be associated with it, but not optimistic that the problematic culture will change any time soon.

I can only read the first paragraph but that is an absolute ****e premise for an article. How on earth is this the teachers unions fault when Norma Foley DIDNT AND DOESNT CONSULT THEM. Unions want to protect their teachers. SEN advocacy groups want to protect their children. Both have their remit. It was Norma Foleys job to get all unions (not just the teachers ones) to the table, agree a procedure to support these students and then publish it. She didn’t bother her arse to do any of that

Never mind that it was Forsa as far as I know who were first out the gate and they aren’t even a teacher union

Funsterdelux · 16-01-2021 10:32AM

De Gascun said it yesterday about the new variants, situations that were low to moderate risk would now be moderate to high.

How can they say schools are still safe? ( especially special needs with constant closer contact)

Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

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Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) Mod warning in OP 22/01