Government flip flops / school closures

Irishphotodesk

Rosita wrote: »

Would love to know the science behind this, as in what's the evidence the 5k causes greater infection spread.

if you really can't understand that people being allowed to travel further allows the virus to travel further, there is no hope for society to survive this pandemic without more lives lost.

Rosita

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

if you really can't understand that people being allowed to travel further allows the virus to travel further, there is no hope for society to survive this pandemic without more lives lost.

I wouldn't have thought that my failure to understand would have such broader societal ramifications but maybe I matter more than I thought!

shesty

Smacruairi wrote: »

The era of excuses, on all sides, is coming to an end. No more anxiety, no more wellbeing, just solutions and moving forward properly, and if systems aren't ready, heads should roll and get someone in place who can carry out that task.

I think this era ended back in early August sometime.March to August.....5 months....they had to sort their s&%t out.A good PM company could have sorted out the basics, it is absolutely not rocket science - as we have seen simply apply a little common sense, and a solution can be found for 99% of the problems.The head in the sand approach is beyond infuriating.The same applies to the HSE by the way.And we are all paying for the ineptness, students, parents and teachers.It is just not good enough.My best recommendation would be to pester your local TDs, as either a parent, teacher or student.Frankly, OAPs did that back in April when asked to cocoon - I think it's time the rest of us started to take that approach and make our voices heard, because nothing will change if we don't.

Rosita

Treppen wrote: »

Some parks in Dublin are jammers, so there's a big difference between 2k and 5k

But not everyone lives in Dublin. I do but not everyone. And the only difference it'll make as far as I can see is that smaller local parks and footpaths will be jammers instead. Seems to me that it's counter-productive. If I drive to the Phoenix Park for a walk I would be in far less proximity to other people. But like I said, I'd love to hear the actual evidence behind it. Sounds to me like "everyone knows" science.

Leftwaffe

Eamon Ryan hasn’t a scooby doo, what he said today makes no difference. It will be decided towards the end of the week. Too late of course but we all know to expect that.

shesty

Teach30 wrote: »

Good for you, hope your enjoying the luxury of it. I’m moving into an old house, no heating, so carpets pretty essential imo. Flooring has been ripped up and kitchen floor just a concrete mess. I’m very hesitant to part with money for a mattress having never tried it.
Paint has been stripped from walls, fine I can do without that. I have no furniture whatsoever so I would consider a trip to purchase these essential. Not good enough to say buy online, it’s a lot of money to waste if not suitable. Chairs needs to be tested for comfort etc.

I’ve been more than careful thus far, making appointments to visit shops and choose is fine by me but they needn’t be fully closed.

Can you find a local Facebook page and see if anyone is offering free stuff?Certainly around here, there are "free stuff" or recycling pages for all the towns and people regularly put up furniture and appliances, or request stuff uf they are moving house and starting from scratch too.Might tide you over for a bit, with no money needed.

amacca

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

if you really can't understand that people being allowed to travel further allows the virus to travel further, there is no hope for society to survive this pandemic without more lives lost.

Ah ffs ...its not as simple or black and white as that. There may be data that shows there is very little difference between 2k and 5k in most locations.

Eg: I live in the countryside.....i could travel 10k in some directions and not meet a sinner on a Sunday afternoon.....

Perhaps 2k is preferable in built up areas.. .imo the whole thing is window dressing because if someone wants to do something how are they going to enforce it.....my pharmacy where my elderly parents gett prescriptions is 15k away...i could claim to be going there 5 days a week.if I want and it would be a complete waste of police time and resources to verify if it was the case or not

There are myriad other legitimate and not legitimate but completely unenforceable ways to breach this...it depends on people being responsible not people sticking rigidly to a 2000m radius from their home.

Its faintly ridiculous you would be criticising someone for wondering where the data that shows 2k better than 5k when huge numbers will simply disregard something that's practically unenforceable anyway...thats the reality of this.

Irishphotodesk

Rosita wrote: »

I wouldn't have thought that my failure to understand would have such broader societal ramifications but maybe I matter more than I thought!

every life matters !

So, yes, your life matters to more than you realise, same for everyone else out there, your life matters to more people than you know....stay safe.

rainbowtrout

Rosita wrote: »

Would love to know the science behind this, as in what's the evidence the 5k causes greater infection spread.

People take the piss and travel further than the limit set. It's not like there's a greater density of people out and about when there is a 2km limit. People don't all go out for exercise at the same time. But once it's set at a distance that is beyond walking distance, people use it as an excuse to get in their cars and go elsewhere. And when people have that mentality, it's easy to see that people will stop in to get coffee somewhere, to run into that shop 'for just 5 minutes' to see what they have etc etc. I've never seen the crowds in my local park that I've seen in the last two days and I've been living here for 20 years.

Ultimately there's lots of people who are selfish and self absorbed.

Irishphotodesk

amacca wrote: »

Ah ffs ...its not as simple or black and white as that. There may be data that shows there is very little difference between 2k and 5k in most locations.

Eg: I live in the countryside.....i could travel 10k in some directions and not meet a sinner on a Sunday afternoon.....

Perhaps 2k is preferable in built up areas.. .imo the whole thing is window dressing because if someone wants to do something how are they going to enforce it.....my pharmacy where my elderly parents gett prescriptions is 15k away...i could claim to be going there 5 days a week.if I want and it would be a complete waste of police time and resources to verify if it was the case or not

There are myriad other legitimate and not legitimate but completely unenforceable ways to breach this...it depends on people being responsible not people sticking rigidly to a 2000m radius from their home.

Its faintly ridiculous you would be criticising someone for wondering where the data that shows 2k better than 5k when huge numbers will simply disregard something that's practically unenforceable anyway...thats the reality of this.

the whole point of creating these recommendations is to save lives - yes there would be places in rural ireland where the 2k, 5k or even 20k limit won't make a difference, but if the government try to say its ok in a rural setting, but not in an urban setting then...its asking for people to ignore it.

in the past we have had rural publicans saying their customers should be allowed to drink and drive - statistically they would be safer to drive home after a few pints compared to someone in an urban setting ....but do you believe that's the best approach ? or should we make a rule/recommendation and try to ensure the whole country abide by these ....to save lives !

simple solution is everyone stay indoors for 2/3 weeks, nobody move ....this would stop the spread but of course you will always get people who believe they know better than immunologists, virologists and other professionals with ists at the end of their job title.

rainbowtrout

Rosita wrote: »

Yeah, there's a problem with the phrase 'lockdown' in that now covers everything but the current level of restrictions will have limited effect on numbers. Even in late October I spoke to a girl who works in a shop near an industrial area and she said that it was as busy as ever.

Signs on that they got numbers down to 300/400 and no lower before lifting restrictions again in December. They spoke about getting them under 100 but never threatened to achieve that. Varadker's rant which delayed the onset of Level 5 in October didn't help either. Would have given an extra couple of weeks breathing space. But my sense is that the current restrictions are not visibly impactful.

I think attempts to keep the economy open while running restrictions in parallel will in the heel of the hunt prove to have been false economics. One hard lockdown for 4-6 weeks, with the vaccine on the horizon and improving weather conditions might have cracked it in the New Year but they seem to have lost the stomach to do that.

Yep, when it only got down to 300-400 when the restriction was lifted, it was only going to go one way. It was down to double digits in the summer when things started opening up again.

What is needed and is entirely beyond our control is a snow like 2010 where people literally can't leave their homes for a few weeks, and that will stop people going out buying stuff that they don't need and meeting up in large groups etc.

o1s1n

Teach30 wrote: »

Good for you, hope your enjoying the luxury of it. I’m moving into an old house, no heating, so carpets pretty essential imo. Flooring has been ripped up and kitchen floor just a concrete mess. I’m very hesitant to part with money for a mattress having never tried it.
Paint has been stripped from walls, fine I can do without that. I have no furniture whatsoever so I would consider a trip to purchase these essential. Not good enough to say buy online, it’s a lot of money to waste if not suitable. Chairs needs to be tested for comfort etc.

I’ve been more than careful thus far, making appointments to visit shops and choose is fine by me but they needn’t be fully closed.

Chairs need to be tested for comfort?

You're living in a house with no carpets or heating man! Get something to park your rear end on for cheap/free and work out the comfort stuff later.

rainbowtrout

Rosita wrote: »

But not everyone lives in Dublin. I do but not everyone. And the only difference it'll make as far as I can see is that smaller local parks and footpaths will be jammers instead. Seems to me that it's counter-productive. If I drive to the Phoenix Park for a walk I would be in far less proximity to other people. But like I said, I'd love to hear the actual evidence behind it. Sounds to me like "everyone knows" science.

Yes, you and the other 10,000 people who have the exact same idea.

wirelessdude01

o1s1n wrote: »

Chairs need to be tested for comfort?

You're living in a house with no carpets or heating man! Get something to park your rear end on for cheap/free and work out the comfort stuff later.

As I said we moved in and literally had a mattress, cardboard on the windows and bough what white goods we needed online. We survived like this until things opened up again. No floors, no carpets, no curtains no blinds, no Internet, no TV.

We picked up crappy chairs from a Facebook group until we got into a shop.

Rosita

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yes, you and the other 10,000 people who have the exact same idea.

Indeed.........in an area of 1,750 acres. Plenty of space. That's my point.

amacca

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

the whole point of creating these recommendations is to save lives - yes there would be places in rural ireland where the 2k, 5k or even 20k limit won't make a difference, but if the government try to say its ok in a rural setting, but not in an urban setting then...its asking for people to ignore it.

In your opinion.....in my opinion because I have legitimate reason to break 5k or 2k daily I'm going to completely ignore the distance ........i am however going to limit any contacts severely to essential food and medicine purchase and as little as possible.....it matters not one **** if I go from Malin Head to Mizen head if I do that.

But I do take your point they can't really put nuance in this stuff given the range of intelligence you are dealing with in a population.

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

in the past we have had rural publicans saying their customers should be allowed to drink and drive - statistically they would be safer to drive home after a few pints compared to someone in an urban setting ....but do you believe that's the best approach ? or should we make a rule/recommendation and try to ensure the whole country abide by these ....to save lives !

Is this about drink driving or you jumping on someone and criticizing them for questioning the effectiveness of a 2k limit.....which btw I also question......on the basis if wtf is the point of having a rule you can't possibly enforce because you don't have the manpower/data to do so and there are so many legitimate reasons to not comply....honestly it's just window dressing and if you can't see that you are naieve....

And if its not window dressing then it feels a bit like trying to store liquid in a sieve........id be with the poster on questioning why bother with 2k limit at all but for the reasons above....to me it seems like a or exercise to be seen to be doing something ...that in reality will achieve little but embolden people to have more disregard for the rules/guidelines

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

simple solution is everyone stay indoors for 2/3 weeks, nobody move ....this would stop the spread but of course you will always get people who believe they know better than immunologists, virologists and other professionals with ists at the end of their job title.

I don't believe I know more than immunologists....I do believe you think you are the last word on this but that's probably not the case.

Yes everybody staying indoors for 2/3 weeks would work.. ...but how likely do you think that is without enforcement? And if you can't enforce it and you are depending on public buy in, how useful do you think it is to bring in a 2k limit that practically everyone can come up with a legitimate reason to break daily (or at least one you couldnt hope to verify with the manpower available?)

Teach30

o1s1n wrote: »

Chairs need to be tested for comfort?

You're living in a house with no carpets or heating man! Get something to park your rear end on for cheap/free and work out the comfort stuff later.

Your of a totally different mindset to me I’m afraid. I don’t do second hand - too snobby for that, and such waste buying something now only to replace it a few months down the line. So yes chairs/couch needs to be sat on to see do they suit ones frame as does a mattress need to be tested to see if it’s comfortable.

I have no issue with attending a shop at a certain time, maintaining distance and choosing correct items. If needs be I’ll stay living at home though and be very careful at school.

Personally this idea of meeting people for a walk etc needs to be cut out, I’ve friends going from group to group doing this every other day. No need for it. I didnt bother meeting anyone over Christmas either but know of colleagues who held/went to get togethers. Ridiculous carry on.

Gael23

Would you all be willing to help with contact tracing during normal school hours should schools be closed?

Treppen

Gael23 wrote: »

Would you all be willing to help with contact tracing during normal school hours should schools be closed?

And teach online and mind kids at the same time.
Sure where do I sign up.

Rosita

Gael23 wrote: »

Would you all be willing to help with contact tracing during normal school hours should schools be closed?

Happily, once a contact tracer is freed up to teach my students. Wouldn't mind a change.

amacca

Gael23 wrote: »

Would you all be willing to help with contact tracing during normal school hours should schools be closed?

Not a teacher anymore but if I was I would....as long as proper training and equipment (if necessary) provided

Can you contact trace from home do you know?

I'd have an issue swapping one crowded workplace for a crowded office.

Also is a 2 to 4mb line sufficient?

Oh and obviously that would be if teaching wasnt going to happening at the same time as others have mentioned

It's not btw that wouldn't be willing to use my computer/laptop just that I woukdnt want to be liable for data privacy concerns if my private computer was being used.....ud rather a secure laptop/computer than my own if there are liabilities for the contact trace there.

o1s1n

Teach30 wrote: »

Your of a totally different mindset to me I’m afraid. I don’t do second hand - too snobby for that, and such waste buying something now only to replace it a few months down the line. So yes chairs/couch needs to be sat on to see do they suit ones frame as does a mattress need to be tested to see if it’s comfortable.

I have no issue with attending a shop at a certain time, maintaining distance and choosing correct items. If needs be I’ll stay living at home though and be very careful at school.

Personally this idea of meeting people for a walk etc needs to be cut out, I’ve friends going from group to group doing this every other day. No need for it. I didnt bother meeting anyone over Christmas either but know of colleagues who held/went to get togethers. Ridiculous carry on.

I now have an image of you sitting on a brand new leather Chesterfield drinking a fine whiskey, in a room with a cement floor and no paint on the walls... :pac:

km79

Gael23 wrote: »

Would you all be willing to help with contact tracing during normal school hours should schools be closed?

No
I’ll be teaching and spending the rest of the time /my evenings preparing online content for the following day and correction online assignments

am_zarathustra

Gael23 wrote: »

Would you all be willing to help with contact tracing during normal school hours should schools be closed?

Jesus where do I sign up, I am dreading being up til 11 every night prepping and correcting and tracking down kids not engaging. I have 2 HL LC classes so best to get someone with a bit of expience teaching my subjects from the pool of contact tracers! Maybe that's where all of those subject teachers are, because they are not rocking around Dublin waiting for a call for substitution.

shesty

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yep, when it only got down to 300-400 when the restriction was lifted, it was only going to go one way. It was down to double digits in the summer when things started opening up again.

What is needed and is entirely beyond our control is a snow like 2010 where people literally can't leave their homes for a few weeks, and that will stop people going out buying stuff that they don't need and meeting up in large groups etc.

Yeah but...it just creates a false environment where numbers are low for a bit then creep up again.I mean I see the point of it, I clearly understand what we are doing, it just is getting extremely tiring to constantly hear "stay at home" when it's all you have done all year and nothing has changed.None of this really solves the problem. Living with covid, we are not.

amacca

shesty wrote: »

Yeah but...it just creates a false environment where numbers are low for a bit then creep up again.I mean I see the point of it, I clearly understand what we are doing, it just is getting extremely tiring to constantly hear "stay at home" when it's all you have done all year and nothing has changed.None of this really solves the problem. Living with covid, we are not.

It does solve the problem of health service being over run and people who may otherwise have made it with intervention dying because they prioritise others with what resources we have got

Or rather prevents it.....

Going into rolling lockdowns is the main/only real tool at their disposal until enough are vaccinated

Perhaps I'm wrong but stating that none of this solves the problem seems incorrect to me.....being told limit your contacts and stsy at home where possible doesnt solve the problem of having to stay at home and limit your contacts all right...it may have solved the problem that would have occurred if it was let run or suppressed or any other supposedly feasible alternative strategy was used would you agree?

And even though our health service/hse (and I stress not the frpntline people in it) could be a lot better im reluctant to say there woukd be much other options if it was one of the best in the world.....assuming that is we don't want the thing to get out of hand and let people who could be saved die

I do somewhat take the point that lockdowns can be damaging too but on the whole I think they are the better path to avoid unnecessary loss of life and podsibly even bigger problems with political instability and social cohesion down the road that not using lock downs as a strategy might result in.

I'm open to informed evidence based correction however.....

wirelessdude01

Gael23 wrote: »

Would you all be willing to help with contact tracing during normal school hours should schools be closed?

And who is going to do the online teaching with my class?

shesty

It is more that we were doing it to buy time...it would be nice to see something being done on the other side of the fence with the time bought, I guess.The HSE/Gov and (relative to this thread) Dept of Ed. side of the fence.

And don't get me wrong, I am not running around a load of houses, keeping to rules as best I can, it is just wearing fairly thin at this point.

Irishphotodesk

amacca wrote: »

In your opinion.....in my opinion because I have legitimate reason to break 5k or 2k daily I'm going to completely ignore the distance ........i am however going to limit any contacts severely to essential food and medicine purchase and as little as possible.....it matters not one **** if I go from Malin Head to Mizen head if I do that.

But I do take your point they can't really put nuance in this stuff given the range of intelligence you are dealing with in a population.





Is this about drink driving or you jumping on someone and criticizing them for questioning the effectiveness of a 2k limit.....which btw I also question......on the basis if wtf is the point of having a rule you can't possibly enforce because you don't have the manpower/data to do so and there are so many legitimate reasons to not comply....honestly it's just window dressing and if you can't see that you are naieve....


And if its not window dressing then it feels a bit like trying to store liquid in a sieve........id be with the poster on questioning why bother with 2k limit at all but for the reasons above....to me it seems like a or exercise to be seen to be doing something ...that in reality will achieve little but embolden people to have more disregard for the rules/guidelines



I don't believe I know more than immunologists....I do believe you think you are the last word on this but that's probably not the case.

Yes everybody staying indoors for 2/3 weeks would work.. ...but how likely do you think that is without enforcement? And if you can't enforce it and you are depending on public buy in, how useful do you think it is to bring in a 2k limit that practically everyone can come up with a legitimate reason to break daily (or at least one you couldnt hope to verify with the manpower available?)

my comment about the drink driving was in regards to the urban/rural argument - I'm do agree with you that if you live in a rural area where you can travel without interaction then happy days, the government introduce recommendations not laws/rules - so its uptown the general public to do their best to limit the spread, if you are happy to wander more than the 5K limit recommendation - that's your business and the gardai are unlikely to charge you with anything unless you are the type of person who is blatantly abusing the situation, ie. going to a beach or wandering the shops.

you obviously would not be abusing the 5km limit given your rural location - I'm unlikely to move beyond my 5km limit (and to me 2km or 5km makes no difference, not much else around apart from roads/fields)

asking people to stay within 5km of their home "should" reduce the spread IF people pay attention and do what is asked, in the same way that reducing the movements to 2km would reduce the amount of interactions between people and therefore reduce the potential to spread the virus.

in simple terms if you look at a map of where you are and put a 2km circle around your position, how many people does your circle interact with ? if you did the same for 5km - is there more people in your circle ? more risk of interacting with those people ie. more risk of spreading the virus.

Same for 20km radius if you draw a circle around your position with a 20km radius, how many people are in your circle.

The government should really be clear with people and tell them what makes a close contact and how the virus is transmitted, also explaining how to identify the signs/symptoms and when people should isolate/restrict movements.

We have had covid in our house - my wife originally had it - it presented itself as a headcold- after a few days, sense of smell/taste went and we called the GP to organise a covid test - just to be 100% safe, we were shocked when she got the positive result (she was sent to a bedroom to isolate after the doc suggested she get the covid test done and the rest of the house was sanitised from top to bottom)
the following few days we were all tested .... one of the kids tested positive, another week later, I tested positive , after a month from original test, we were able to leave the house, we went as far as the back garden and didn't interact with anyone during our month of isolation.

for about 6weeks afterwards going up and down stairs caused breathlessness, it feels like someone has an invisible belt around your chest and can tighten it at any time, we wouldn't wish it on anyone and have been doing our best to reduce interactions with anyone, we spent christmas in our own home and seen family on computer/tablet screens only.

amacca

shesty wrote: »

It is more that we were doing it to buy time...it would be nice to see something being done on the other side of the fence with the time bought, I guess.The HSE/Gov and (relative to this thread) Dept of Ed. side of the fence.

And don't get me wrong, I am not running around a load of houses, keeping to rules as best I can, it is just wearing fairly thin at this point.

Fair enough.....Like what sort of actions should they be taking on the other side of the fence with the time bought would you think?

To my mind the strategy is rolling lock downs until enough of a percentage of population vaccinated, coukd they be doing the vaccination more efficiently?